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Old 2012-10-13, 09:27   Link #801
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Kirroha View Post
I suppose it just didn't feel right in that situation where you really should just pick the safe option instead of running the risk of getting everyone killed in a fire. So I couldn't really feel as if I support Akane's "moral" choice.
The situation escalated precisely because the woman was threatened by the dominator. She wasn't about to harm anybody before that. A few reassuring words would have probably been enough to calm her down and bring her in. She was a victim, there was no need to treat so roughly.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:29   Link #802
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The situation escalated precisely because the woman was threatened by the dominator. She wasn't about to harm anybody before that. A few reassuring words would have probably been enough to calm her down and bring her in. She was a victim, there was no need to treat so roughly.
Isn't that what the Psychopass reading is for? It read that she would eventually harm herself or others and that's why she needed to be incapacitated. Anyways, there doesn't seem to be room for compassion in the CID.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:44   Link #803
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Originally Posted by king12354 View Post
Isn't that what the Psychopass reading is for? It read that she would eventually harm herself or others and that's why she needed to be incapacitated. Anyways, there doesn't seem to be room for compassion in the CID.
All it read is that she was in a confused state of mind. It can't predict the future. She may have been a danger to herself and those around, or she may have not. As we've seen at the end of the episode, it doesn't take much to bring the numbers down. I think it wouldn't have hurt to use Akane's approach first, and then force if it didn't work.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:44   Link #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The situation escalated precisely because the woman was threatened by the dominator. She wasn't about to harm anybody before that. A few reassuring words would have probably been enough to calm her down and bring her in. She was a victim, there was no need to treat so roughly.
Yeah and akane didnt told her to calm down ?
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:47   Link #805
MeoTwister5
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The mere fact (?) that pointing a gun at the woman already initiates the flight or fight response that causes the Dominator to assess her as a threat worthy of elimination should already emphasize how inherently flawed this Sybil System is.

Considering that, at least from the first episode, we can glean that the system used by the cops to prognosticate potential violent and criminal is itself based on measuring a known psychological profile against current stressors. Even modern psychology would admit that this is, at most, purely predictive and not guaranteed.

It might even be known that the woman he held hostage had, based on her psychological profile, had no known elements that could predict any shift towards criminal behavior. It would seem, in fact, that it was her mentally torturing experience of being raped and threatened by death that completely broke her. What we have at the end was a completely broken shell of a woman who just experienced hell on earth and was predicted to become a "violent criminal" thereof. I would go so far to as to even claim that there was nothing criminal as to what she was about to do. As I has said, she was doing what a broken mind completely controlled by the defensive fight or flight response would do.

And this Sybil makes no distinction for that. That, in what I see so far, is a very critical and dangerous flaw, because no matter what your psychological profile is, it makes EVERYONE a potential threat in the system's eyes.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:49   Link #806
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Lenneth4 View Post
Yeah and akane didnt told her to calm down ?
She did, and oddly it was not very effective with somebody pointing a gun right behind her. When she tried again at the end of the episode, it worked pretty well.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:54   Link #807
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I just feel that it's very ironic that the way they treated the guy who caused all this mess is what ended up turning him into a criminal and also turned his own victim into a potential criminal according to the flawed logic of that AI that controls the system.
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Old 2012-10-13, 10:16   Link #808
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I just feel that it's very ironic that the way they treated the guy who caused all this mess is what ended up turning him into a criminal and also turned his own victim into a potential criminal according to the flawed logic of that AI that controls the system.
That was the point of this episode to show you how flawed this system actually is and you know something big is going to happen that will cause the main cast to turn on it's AI master.
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Old 2012-10-13, 10:55   Link #809
Kaoru Chujo
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Eh moe is a very vague word to begin with. Going by it's true definition what you find moe may not be moe to me and to be honest Akane did not strike me as moe so there.
This is certainly true, but I go by the old original sense discussed by Akamatsu Ken, the author of Negima, in 2005. He talked about moe ("burning" or "budding") being a reflex response to want to protect someone/something cute and vulnerable and who has some special characteristic (more detail here and here).

I wonder if we are actually getting close to a system like the one in this show, and also if it makes a kind of perverted sense. In a crowded society of people all going after what they want, maybe we are always on the edge of chaos and people in authority feel they have to identify and weed out dangerous elements (like otaku or socialists or atheists) before they act. If we had a detector that could actually detect criminal tendencies, do you think that the security industry would hesitate to market it to police forces?
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:26   Link #810
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Funny that this anime's roots are in Blade Runner. I kept thinking back to Minority Report as I watched, as that was the more obvious connection to make. And, of course, both go back to the same author.

Making it bleak is a good idea but that female inspector and those cute policeman holograms (if that's what they are) kind of ruin it. Nothing tragic but they just don't really fit the rest of the setting.
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:49   Link #811
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I wonder if we are actually getting close to a system like the one in this show, and also if it makes a kind of perverted sense. In a crowded society of people all going after what they want, maybe we are always on the edge of chaos and people in authority feel they have to identify and weed out dangerous elements (like otaku or socialists or atheists) before they act. If we had a detector that could actually detect criminal tendencies, do you think that the security industry would hesitate to market it to police forces?
If they could I have no doubt they would in a heart beat. Just take a good look at the workings of many first world nations justice systems and how flawed they can be yet still used because the system is simple and works.

For example I remember this murder case a few years back that had become huge national news in the US. A woman was blamed for the possible poisoning of her husband on the ground that she didn't seem to be mournful enough. The so called justice system slammed this women's name in to ground and dragged her through the mud. Getting a jury conviction on baseless clams and popular public opinion alone without even waiting for medical examination to come back.

Well guess what happened when the medical exam came back as natural cause. That is right a big time oops on the part of the part of the courts. They apologized and let her go but the damage was done last I remember she was suing the state of Florida.
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Old 2012-10-13, 12:49   Link #812
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Originally Posted by Insane View Post
I just feel that it's very ironic that the way they treated the guy who caused all this mess is what ended up turning him into a criminal and also turned his own victim into a potential criminal according to the flawed logic of that AI that controls the system.
I'm not sure about that. I mean, the guy appeared to be 'normal', but if so why reject the therapy? (Unless we have future episodes showing the therapy as extremely painful/degrading or will destroy your social life). And he totally went full blown psychotic before the police even came to him. I think he's already borderline crazy and was just suppressing himself before that little incident with the robot triggered his insanity.

Reading all the thoughts about the system being flawed and ineffective, it seems that eventually we will have a plotline of the characters confronting the system and accusing it to cause chaos and people going crazy. But what if the system was right? What if the system was really capable of marking those crazy and murderous people who WILL kill someone and yet people are trying to blame the system as the cause of the crime and insanity? I just think it is one interesting plotline the series can take.
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Old 2012-10-13, 13:59   Link #813
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Basically the system itself is a double edge sword...on one side it could weed out dangerous element like those with psychopathic tendencies or dangerous element like an aggressive people, bad temper, etc but on the other side it cannot differentiate between true psycho and temporary because of situation like that of the victim in this case...
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Old 2012-10-13, 15:45   Link #814
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
And this Sybil makes no distinction for that. That, in what I see so far, is a very critical and dangerous flaw, because no matter what your psychological profile is, it makes EVERYONE a potential threat in the system's eyes.
But nobody gives a damn, since it gives society at large a sense of security and since it can be measured with scientific precision that at the time of being paralized/killed the perp was a danger to society's well being. So if any gear in this machine we call society lacks enough oiling (or was never built to handle the levels of stress it suffers) and starts to act up, why look at the design of the machine at large, too much hassle, just do away with the gear, there are plenty of replacement parts and you can even recycle some of the used parts (i.e. as enforcers, albeit I have no doubt those with different skill sets are used as slaves in jobs too hazardous for a human being to handle).

Yeah, I just saw the Judge Dredd movie, this anime is IMO mix of blade runner and judge dredd.

p.s. The reputation system in this board somehow reminds me of the psycho.pass in reverse, if it were to allow for increasingly negative points some members would be purged when exceeding a certain amount.
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Old 2012-10-13, 15:58   Link #815
Anh_Minh
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I'd like to know how the therapy works, too. Are you stuck with it for the rest of your life, or is it just till you've calmed down? And if so, how long does that take?

The criminal here seemed to think it was forever, but he'd been barely holding on for a long while. The woman just had one terrible day.
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Old 2012-10-13, 16:31   Link #816
mangamuscle
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I'd like to know how the therapy works, too. Are you stuck with it for the rest of your life, or is it just till you've calmed down? And if so, how long does that take?
Probably the therapy has a certain cost limit, if the subject fails to recover after having spent a set amount of resources (unless someone continues to pay the cost out of their own pocket) he is deemed a lost cause and loose their citizenship (no right to marriage, changing jobs, voting, etc.) and are stuck with routine check of your "hue" for life.
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Old 2012-10-13, 17:00   Link #817
MartianMage
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I'm not saying that "I know the system". I'm saying that...

1) There's no good, in-canon reason to think that the gun is giving recommendations instead of giving commands.

2) Going by the wording used, it sounds more like its giving commands.

So why are people just assuming its giving recommendations? Because that would make the system more defensible? Maybe the system isn't meant to be defensible. And like I wrote before, a crazy system doesn't mean a stupid story. 1984 had a crazy system, but it was definitely not a stupid story.
Well yes, I'm actually trying to make the system defensible. Like I said it's only the first episode and we don't really know how the system works and we don't even know how and why was it implemented. Maybe this world isn't really as crazy as you're thinking it to be? Maybe Psycho Pass is actually very accurate?

@thread
As for the hassle that Akane caused...

think about it this way... if Akane didn't interfere and just let Masaoka paralyze the victim then it would have ended there. It was set to paralyze in the first place and Akane's reaction might have been misinterpreted by the victim that they are trying to kill her thus raising her stress even further and giving her a lethal judgement.
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Old 2012-10-13, 17:43   Link #818
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
I'm not saying that "I know the system". I'm saying that...

1) There's no good, in-canon reason to think that the gun is giving recommendations instead of giving commands.

2) Going by the wording used, it sounds more like its giving commands.

So why are people just assuming its giving recommendations? Because that would make the system more defensible? Maybe the system isn't meant to be defensible. And like I wrote before, a crazy system doesn't mean a stupid story. 1984 had a crazy system, but it was definitely not a stupid story.
Check all of the instances of the dominator evaluations: The only time it said "aim careful and <perform action>" is when it switched between lethal and nonlethal modes. In other instances, it merely informed the user that the target is or isn't a valid target and its threat level. In other words, the dominator is giving instructions on how to use it--perfectly reasonable when the dominator is changing modes--, and just like manuals are written in the imperative, the dominator's instructions are in the imperative. We certainly do not assume that manuals are giving commands, and the users who read manuals must immediately perform the actions written therein.

Quote:
Like I wrote before, I can imagine (and probably even accept) this system determining that some targets really are too far gone to be worth trying to rehabilitate. But that decision should be based on more than just moments of extreme trauma and high emotionality, which people tend to recover from at least to some extent.
To me it sounds like there are two systems for assessing an individual:
1. a system in the dominators and scanners, which give a preliminary assessment and recommends treatment or authorizes nonlethal force or lethal force.

2. the Sibyl system, which gives an in depth assessment of whether the target can be treated.

This is why Ginoza mentions that the Sibyl judgment hasn't been received, but they can proceed anyway.

The episode addresses why the dominators can authorize lethal force without a Sibyl judgment: Kagari's attempt to use paralyzers failed on the target because he was too drugged up. Thus, escalation is sometimes necessary without waiting for Sibyl's judgment. The real omission here is why we don't see evidence of a manual conversion back to nonlethal mode.
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Old 2012-10-13, 18:17   Link #819
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I'm not sure about that. I mean, the guy appeared to be 'normal', but if so why reject the therapy? (Unless we have future episodes showing the therapy as extremely painful/degrading or will destroy your social life). And he totally went full blown psychotic before the police even came to him. I think he's already borderline crazy and was just suppressing himself before that little incident with the robot triggered his insanity.

Reading all the thoughts about the system being flawed and ineffective, it seems that eventually we will have a plotline of the characters confronting the system and accusing it to cause chaos and people going crazy. But what if the system was right? What if the system was really capable of marking those crazy and murderous people who WILL kill someone and yet people are trying to blame the system as the cause of the crime and insanity? I just think it is one interesting plotline the series can take.
The way they deal with the criminals itself is also flawed, especially the way they kill the individual. Why choose a gruesome and gory way to kill? Kill them in a way that it won’t explode their body into pieces. In this case it worsened the situation. The victim saw it all happen that made her coefficient go up. I do hope the show provides a satisfying conclusion like the characters going against the system and removing it. That said, i wonder how such system came to pass without people objecting to it? The most fatal flaw is that just by thinking something bad the scanner will label you a criminal. Then when the scanner is 160, you get slaughtered.
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Old 2012-10-13, 18:26   Link #820
MartianMage
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The way they deal with the criminals itself is also flawed, especially the way they kill the individual. Why choose a gruesome and gory way to kill? Kill them in a way that it won’t explode their body into pieces. In this case it worsened the situation. The victim saw it all happen that made her coefficient go up. I do hope the show provides a satisfying conclusion like the characters going against the system and removing it. That said, i wonder how such system came to pass without people objecting to it? The most fatal flaw is that just by thinking something bad the scanner will label you a criminal. Then when the scanner is 160, you get slaughtered.
No, you're wrong. Rewatch the chase scene again. Masaoka stated that the gun was set to non lethal mode. The updated judgement only came after Akane interfered.

And also "That said, i wonder how such system came to pass without people objecting to it?"

And this is why I'm saying that why are we assuming that this world is so crazy in the first place? Why aren't we even considering the fact that the Psycho Pass is actually accurate and acceptable? Because yeah if it was soooo bad then why was it passed in the first place? Maybe we need to step back and let the show try to explain things before we say "this is flawed that is flawed etc etc" we're only at the first episode...
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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