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Old 2012-10-13, 06:38   Link #30841
Drifloon
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Not that unusual; lots of people thought that back when EP6 was out. But later episodes make it pretty clear that some kind of Shkanon interpretation was the intention.
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Old 2012-10-13, 08:24   Link #30842
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
It's 17th if Erika joins in
I always assumed that truth was used to just Deny Erika. Since she said that she was the 18th person on the island and Battler said there was only 17 making her someone who was not actually alive on the island.

Hmm it seems everyone here interpreted that really differently.
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Old 2012-10-13, 08:37   Link #30843
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's pretty obvious Gohda is a tool when he's collaborating with Shannon's testimony, is involved in the whole fantasy run to the church and then Natsuhi's room, and is then murdered.
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".

Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilfoon
I think that Shannon and the others managed to convince Gohda that Rosa was a threat, and that they should fake Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths so that they could investigate without being under Rosa's control. Obviously everyone there except Gohda knows that this isn't the real reason because they're all in on the plan. But I think that this is a more convincing reason for Gohda to lie than simply being bribed or blackmailed, because I can't really see him being able to do that if he actually knew that the two of them were dead.

Obviously, when Kumasawa and Nanjo go with Shannon to hide somewhere, she kills them, and then Genji moves the bodies later when he's "doing the rounds" before telling Battler/Rosa/Maria that he found their corpses.
This is an interesting solution; thank you it's probably somewhere close to what R07 intended. It's a pity we don't have much red on the circumstances of murders in the 2nd game.

Though it doesn't explain the locked room. I believe before this happened Rosa took all of the master keys and then sent the servants off together, they went to the kitchen, phantom Kanon shows up, Kuwasama and Nanjo "die", and the servants take the bodies to the servant room after the murders supposedly took place. Even if the murders didn't happen there was still a letter on the table in the servant's room when Rosa and the rest investigate. The keys to the servant room were locked in the servant room, and Rosa had the master keys.

Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.

Last edited by Ryuudou; 2012-10-13 at 08:53.
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Old 2012-10-13, 08:41   Link #30844
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".

Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.
Our confession said Kumasawa was a bribed accomplice but she didn't think people were murdered for real but they were merely faking it and were covered in make up to make the illusion look more real.
Likely the same was for Gohda. He was offered money to take part to a murder game. He found out too late the murder game wasn't a game in which people weren't pretending to be dead but were killed for real.
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Old 2012-10-13, 09:31   Link #30845
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.
Did you read Our Confessions?

From there we can kind of conclude that, for each game, we have all the servants+Nanjo+One of the Siblings+Wife/Husband, involved.
In this case, it's just Rosa.

It wouldn't be surprising if the farce was all planned from the start.


And the Master Keys from the servants had not been confiscated yet by that point. (The door could have been locked by Shannon, Genji, Gohda, no problem, from outside)
This event caused Rosa to receive the Master Keys from the servants.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:05   Link #30846
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Though it doesn't explain the locked room. I believe before this happened Rosa took all of the master keys and then sent the servants off together, they went to the kitchen, phantom Kanon shows up, Kuwasama and Nanjo "die", and the servants take the bodies to the servant room after the murders supposedly took place. Even if the murders didn't happen there was still a letter on the table in the servant's room when Rosa and the rest investigate. The keys to the servant room were locked in the servant room, and Rosa had the master keys.
...Yeah, you're misremembering this, sorry. The master keys were confiscated after this happened.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:26   Link #30847
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
First Twilight: Door wasn't locked, Rosa lied about it. Technically the red truth only said it couldn't be unlocked without the chapel key so theoretically Rosa isn't needed here but meh.
Interestingly, the anime version of this statement actually includes both "locking and unlocking".

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
Btw the author fucked up here . Since there is a turn lock on the back it is possible to unlock the door without the Chapel key.
I'm not sure if it was the author's intention with the chapel, but some doors are built with locks that have no way to unlock from the inside (the garden shed is such an example).

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
To Be honest George is the only one who could have done this considering everyone else was proven dead by either Red or Detective's Authority.
Battler may have been "the detective", but he did not have "Detective's Authority". There is a meta-discussion in EP6 that confirms that Battler didn't have those super powers during EPs 1-4.

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Episode 4
You're forgetting something important: Kyrie's phone call was back-to-back with Jessica's.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:28   Link #30848
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Well about Knox's Rules, wasn't it stated in the 5th games ?????? that Beatrice's mystery doesn't necessarily follow Knox's rules and they are more of just general guidelines of how to think? So I don't see why this is an issue.

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You're forgetting something important: Kyrie's phone call was back-to-back with Jessica's.
Hmm yes I did forget this. Let's change this around I guess. Instead the 8 people before Kanon are the original 6 along with Gohda and Kumasawa. Jessica was captured and imprisoned with Kyrie and Krauss. Works out the same way kinda except Shannon catches both or Shannon and George and they force them to lie and kill them afterwards Shannon kills George on the way to where Battler is supposed to meet her.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Battler may have been "the detective", but he did not have "Detective's Authority". There is a meta-discussion in EP6 that confirms that Battler didn't have those super powers during EPs 1-4.
Alright well if that's the case.

Rudolf, Kyrie, Hideyoshi, George, Krauss and Natsuhi could have killed him. Krauss and Natsuhi IIRC were locked outside so I doubt it was them. The other four are likely Candidates though. I would say George>Hideyoshi>Kyrie>Rudolf. I find it unlikely that both battler and Eva would mistake Kyrie and Rudolf as being dead but it's possible that Eva lied about Hideyoshi being dead because they were side culprits. George though still explains kinda why Nanjo left the room.

I have a few questions about Shkanon,

Why is Kanon in Kyrie's group and why is he the first to die and labeled as the 9th victim?

Last edited by Valkama; 2012-10-13 at 12:12.
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Old 2012-10-13, 11:28   Link #30849
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The chapel door IS unlocked from the inside during the EP2 fantasy scene with George/Shannon/Gohda, but...well, it is a fantasy scene. I'd take the word of the red over that. Not that it really matters whether you can unlock it from the inside anyway.
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Old 2012-10-13, 15:11   Link #30850
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Quote:
Well about Knox's Rules, wasn't it stated in the 5th games ?????? that Beatrice's mystery doesn't necessarily follow Knox's rules and they are more of just general guidelines of how to think? So I don't see why this is an issue.
No, that's not what's stated. Battler accuses the Knox rules of being arrogant, and Dlanor and company say they exist to create a fair game, and Beatrice wanted this game to be solvable, so they're valuable tools. Use them.
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Old 2012-10-13, 16:42   Link #30851
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".
I don't think using the fantasy narrative as clues is a violation of Knox ... in fact, Knox's 2nd is only even used once because it doesn't have much place in the story. However, I think Godha's general demeanor during the scene where they tried to explain things to Rosa was a very obvious hint. Of course, it'd also be suspicious if all three of them were so stoic, but his blubbering kinda highlighted him as the odd man out in SOME way.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.
I don't see why, if it's hinted properly. There have certainly been mysteries that involved an insane amount of accomplices.

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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.
She HAS to be, at least a little. She claimed to have spoken to Kinzo, and to have confirmed "Shannon and Genji were indeed with Father. That is their alibi, they were totally talking to Father, just like I'd told them to."

Also, the First Twilight in EP2 probably isn't faked ... we even have a red confirming that.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
I have a few questions about Shkanon,

Why is Kanon in Kyrie's group and why is he the first to die and labeled as the 9th victim?
Well, in the narrative as presented, Kyries group was PRESENTED as Kyrie, Krauss, Nanjo, Shannon, and Kanon. These people didn't die in the First Twilight, and are not part of the group in the Guesthouse (which is the kids, plus Ghoda and Kumasawa)

If I had to explain his seemingly specific death, I'd say it's both a trick that uses Kanon's distinct personhood to play a word game, and represents the point Shannon essentially decided "Well, someone has to be 4th Twilight, guess it'll be Kanon."
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Old 2012-10-13, 16:50   Link #30852
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
No, that's not what's stated. Battler accuses the Knox rules of being arrogant, and Dlanor and company say they exist to create a fair game, and Beatrice wanted this game to be solvable, so they're valuable tools. Use them.
I know they are tools to help you solve it. Beatrice's mystery is supposed to be solvable but there was never a guarantee of it following all of Knox's rules to a tee.
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Old 2012-10-14, 00:38   Link #30853
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You're right, but if we're going to violate a Knox Rule, we better have an iron-clad case for doing so.
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Old 2012-10-14, 03:44   Link #30854
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
She HAS to be, at least a little. She claimed to have spoken to Kinzo, and to have confirmed "Shannon and Genji were indeed with Father. That is their alibi, they were totally talking to Father, just like I'd told them to."
And also, the closed room for the chapel couldn't easily work out without Rosa's cooperation.

My guess is she solved the riddle and Yasu becomes her furniture or something.
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:44   Link #30855
Ryuudou
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
And also, the closed room for the chapel couldn't easily work out without Rosa's cooperation.

My guess is she solved the riddle and Yasu becomes her furniture or something.
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:58   Link #30856
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I don't think Rosa solved the epitaph in EP2...Much more likely that she was just working as Beatrice's accomplice because she needed the gold.
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Old 2012-10-14, 09:51   Link #30857
Valkama
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The more I read into Shkanon, the more it makes sense. A few things still don't make that much sense like:

1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.

2. EP4 the red about Kanon. Kealym sorta explained this though.

3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.

That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight. EP5 the viewpoints were subjective so that doesn't really matter.
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Old 2012-10-14, 10:03   Link #30858
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
That exactly why she says that stuff to Maria. Probably they're out of time because Rosa wanted to return for the golden ingot. And she intended to risk her life staying there to look for it after she fell down, that's why she's urging Maria to leave her behind.

This was also sorta implied in her quiz in EP8.

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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.
Hideyoshi and Eva are pretty obvious accomplices in EP1, or at least they are going along with Yasu's story. After all, they don't have an alibi for midnight, except the one they confirm for each other, plus they're totally trying to frame Natsuhi.

Only thing I'm not sure about is why she decides to get rid of them.

(Then again, fake deaths......)

Quote:
3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.
Erika, no, Bern has no intention to solve Battler's game, she wants to destroy it with a humiliating logic Error, that's why she's looking the other way from Shkanon purposefully.

And suddenly I'm starting to get fonder of Genius Battler Theory.

Quote:
That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight.
EP3 was the 'easy' mode chapter because of all the people who gave up in EP2, according to Ryukishi. Yeah, regardless of all the red lies, it was pretty blatant at some points.

Plus it simply paints you a picture about Battler's promise.
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Old 2012-10-14, 10:35   Link #30859
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Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The more I read into Shkanon, the more it makes sense. A few things still don't make that much sense like:

1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.
It's a tricky case. I think that might have been intended as one of the last things you unravel, after you've discovered the existence of Beatrice's infinite accomplice machine in EP4 and you already suspect Shannon of the murders.

On the other hand, Hideyoshi is really excessively theatrical in that scene. I also always thought it was weird how he never ever drops his fake Kansai accent, even when he's supposedly under stress, but that could be chalked up to Yasu not knowing it was fake when she wrote the games.
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Old 2012-10-14, 11:13   Link #30860
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I always felt like the scene with Eva and Hideyoshi in their room in EP1 was pretty indicative of them being accomplices. Just the way they're acting dooesn't really fit for people who genuinely thought six people had just been brutally murdered...Not to mention Eva's giggly unconcerned attitude when discussing the case with Battler.
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