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Old 2012-10-14, 01:16   Link #4601
Moe Connection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by florza View Post
Perseus is a hero - once again, it is reasonable to assume that he would not do something like rape.

Also, given the nature of Campione as a novel (I think we can make a fair judgement based on how many novels have already been released), I do not think it is dark enough to contain elements like 'implied intention to rape'.

(P.S. You might not have noticed, but I translated V4)
I wonder how Andromeda became his wife then?
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Old 2012-10-14, 01:38   Link #4602
florza
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So? What're you trying to say?

If you're trying to persuade me otherwise, do try to use logic and actual quotes to support your argument, difficult as it may seem.

I'm not going to convince myself for you, y'know?

If this entire discussion was supposed to be mere idle theorising (纸上谈兵, we do seem to speak a different language at times) based on personal opinion and interpretation, then I apologise in advance.
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Old 2012-10-14, 01:46   Link #4603
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Originally Posted by florza View Post
So? What're you trying to say?

If you're trying to persuade me otherwise, do try to use logic and actual quotes to support your argument, difficult as it may seem.

I'm not going to convince myself for you, y'know?

If this entire discussion was supposed to be mere idle theorising (纸上谈兵, we do seem to speak a different language at times) based on personal opinion and interpretation, then I apologise in advance.
What I am trying to say is that heroes in the classic sense, which Perseus belong to, does not necessarily mean doing something honourable and saving the weak. They could be worshiped as heroes just because they did something that normal people wouldn't be able to do. A fair amount of Greek 'heroes' were quite lacking in terms of moral--especially the ones who participated in the Trojan Wars. Rape was as common as eating to them.Not related to the Trojan war, but one of the most notable rapist heroes would be Theseus. Not only did he abduct and force Hippolyta the Amazonian Queen to marry him, he later even abducts Helen of Troy. There'd be no way a goddess would marry a man who had defeated her and stole her powers out of her own volition. Coercion and force must have been used to 'persuade' her into marrying or have sex with him. Hence, Perseus is a rapist.Frankly, Perseus is one of the gods in this series who disgusts me.
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Old 2012-10-14, 04:15   Link #4604
TJP1600
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
What I am trying to say is that heroes in the classic sense, which Perseus belong to, does not necessarily mean doing something honourable and saving the weak. They could be worshiped as heroes just because they did something that normal people wouldn't be able to do. A fair amount of Greek 'heroes' were quite lacking in terms of moral--especially the ones who participated in the Trojan Wars. Rape was as common as eating to them.Not related to the Trojan war, but one of the most notable rapist heroes would be Theseus. Not only did he abduct and force Hippolyta the Amazonian Queen to marry him, he later even abducts Helen of Troy. There'd be no way a goddess would marry a man who had defeated her and stole her powers out of her own volition. Coercion and force must have been used to 'persuade' her into marrying or have sex with him. Hence, Perseus is a rapist.Frankly, Perseus is one of the gods in this series who disgusts me.
Perhaps you should put that novel of a post into the translation notes on volume 4 so we are all clear that Perseus is a rapist.
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Old 2012-10-14, 05:14   Link #4605
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Let not get so work up on, if Perseus is a rapist or a gentlemen and get back on topic.
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Old 2012-10-14, 05:31   Link #4606
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Originally Posted by mike211 View Post
Let not get so work up on, if Perseus is a rapist or a gentlemen and get back on topic.
I don't feel worked up myself, but somehow, it seems to me that the discussion has progressed as though it has touched someone's nerves. It has turned somewhat hostile, I can't tell if there's sarcasm here. So yeah, the discussion is whether Godou has too many flaws.Let's not drift into an area that might lead to something nasty.
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Old 2012-10-14, 06:42   Link #4607
florza
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Hmm, I see your point. However, there is a fundamental flaw there. You are making the assumption that whatever holds true in classic mythology would also hold true in the world of Campione. The author has never said anything about that, hence it is not implied, but rather an assumption.

Again, it's not that I'm attacking your opinion/interpretation, all along my point was that if you're going to be making such sweeping statements you should clearly state that it is merely speculation and not use the wrong English verbs, to prevent widespread misinformation and misunderstandings.

Well, my original point was that Perseus didn't use an 'underhanded' trick, but they kept on drifting further away from that (god knows why).
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Old 2012-10-14, 07:12   Link #4608
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Originally Posted by florza View Post
Hmm, I see your point. However, there is a fundamental flaw there. You are making the assumption that whatever holds true in classic mythology would also hold true in the world of Campione. The author has never said anything about that, hence it is not implied, but rather an assumption.

Again, it's not that I'm attacking your opinion/interpretation, all along my point was that if you're going to be making such sweeping statements you should clearly state that it is merely speculation and not use the wrong English verbs, to prevent widespread misinformation and misunderstandings.

Well, my original point was that Perseus didn't use an 'underhanded' trick, but they kept on drifting further away from that (god knows why).
Well, you did ask me to use logic in a debate. Considering that a goddess is at the mercy of her attacker after she has been defeated and that she married her attacker shortly after, logic deduces that the marriage must have been forced.Either way, this is irrelevant. All I was trying to say earlier is that just because Perseus is one of the 'heroes', this does not mean that he would not do something as dishonourable as rape Liliana. I didn't pick up any suggestions about him planning to rape Liliana after killing Godou when I first read the novel. Therefore, I don't think he would rape Lili. All I was trying to say earlier is that when you suggested to the other user that Perseus wouldn't rape anyone just because he's a hero is just flawed. That's all.I did think, however, that he did rape Andromade.
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:05   Link #4609
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Well, you did ask me to use logic in a debate. Considering that a goddess is at the mercy of her attacker after she has been defeated and that she married her attacker shortly after, logic deduces that the marriage must have been forced.Either way, this is irrelevant. All I was trying to say earlier is that just because Perseus is one of the 'heroes', this does not mean that he would not do something as dishonourable as rape Liliana. I didn't pick up any suggestions about him planning to rape Liliana after killing Godou when I first read the novel. Therefore, I don't think he would rape Lili. All I was trying to say earlier is that when you suggested to the other user that Perseus wouldn't rape anyone just because he's a hero is just flawed. That's all.I did think, however, that he did rape Andromade.
Actually, this raises a question I've been wondering about. Was Perseus a real person, and if so, by defeating Medusa/Athena and Andromeda/Tiamet, was he a Campione?

And if he wasn't a real person, do the events happening in myths and legends count as "real"? I'm not really clear on whether the Gods always exist, just in another realm, or they are just imaginary figures that have the nasty habit of spontaneously erupting from the collective human imagination into reality. Or is there no real difference?

Anyway, back to the rape thing, even if was "unwilling", if the Gods aren't really "real", then can you actually say that something that happened in the stories actually happened? So if Perseus never existed, then he really couldn't have raped Andromeda, as it never actually happened.

My apologies if I'm not being clear.
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:09   Link #4610
PCheshire
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please don't insult perseus!!
he's hot and that's all that matters!!
oops
i mean what if the goddess just wants to marry someone stronger than her?
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Old 2012-10-14, 08:19   Link #4611
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Originally Posted by PCheshire View Post
please don't insult perseus!!
he's hot and that's all that matters!!
oops
i mean what if the goddess just wants to marry someone stronger than her?
Fan-girl detected! Well, would you willingly marry someone who beat the crap out of you and basically steals your money?I think this is a good enough analogy in real life.

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Originally Posted by Gore17 View Post
Actually, this raises a question I've been wondering about. Was Perseus a real person, and if so, by defeating Medusa/Athena and Andromeda/Tiamet, was he a Campione?

And if he wasn't a real person, do the events happening in myths and legends count as "real"? I'm not really clear on whether the Gods always exist, just in another realm, or they are just imaginary figures that have the nasty habit of spontaneously erupting from the collective human imagination into reality. Or is there no real difference?

Anyway, back to the rape thing, even if was "unwilling", if the Gods aren't really "real", then can you actually say that something that happened in the stories actually happened? So if Perseus never existed, then he really couldn't have raped Andromeda, as it never actually happened.

My apologies if I'm not being clear.
I don't know if Perseus was really a person. No one can tell you that. Heretic gods can be created by pure imaginations. As for whether Perseus was a Campione? Nope. He's not, because he was Mithra, the Persian Sun God prior to him becoming known as Perseus.
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Old 2012-10-14, 09:16   Link #4612
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Fan-girl detected! Well, would you willingly marry someone who beat the crap out of you and basically steals your money?I think this is a good enough analogy in real life.


I don't know if Perseus was really a person. No one can tell you that. Heretic gods can be created by pure imaginations. As for whether Perseus was a Campione? Nope. He's not, because he was Mithra, the Persian Sun God prior to him becoming known as Perseus.
Perseus and Mithra fused under Roman rule, remember? So Perseus and Mithra were originally two separate beings(real or imaginary) that ended up being fused together into one.

So it would depend on whether the original myth of Perseus was simply a fabricated story, or a reflection of real events. I was wondering, if the legend of Perseus was rooted in a historical event, would the real/original Perseus have been a Campione?
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Old 2012-10-14, 09:35   Link #4613
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No, Perseus was a Demi God. To be a Campione, you must be completely human and fulfill Pandora's requirements.
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Old 2012-10-14, 09:56   Link #4614
Gore17
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Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
No, Perseus was a Demi God. To be a Campione, you must be completely human and fulfill Pandora's requirements.
Demi-gods can't become Campione's? Where was it stated that only people who are completely/purely human can become Campione's?

There's also the question of whether Perseus, if he was an actual person, really was a Demi-god, or whether being the son of Zeus was simply myth. As Zeus would have to have been a Heretic God to sire Perseus.

Of course, it would be interesting if Zeus was currently like Susanoo, hanging around in the Astral Plane, having calmed down from his youth.
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Old 2012-10-14, 12:12   Link #4615
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*Sigh* every Campione so far is human of origin. No matter how much human blood is in a Demi God, he is still a being beyond Human. All Gods are originally Myths and thus their being is the myth themselves. The Myths themselves don't need to make sense, if there are many who believe in them then the Myth manifest into beings called Gods.
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Old 2012-10-14, 13:10   Link #4616
Gore17
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Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
*Sigh* every Campione so far is human of origin. No matter how much human blood is in a Demi God, he is still a being beyond Human. All Gods are originally Myths and thus their being is the myth themselves. The Myths themselves don't need to make sense, if there are many who believe in them then the Myth manifest into beings called Gods.
...That doesn't really answer my question on where it was said you have to be completely human to become a Campione. Wouldn't that mean that people like Yuri and Ena, the Hime-Miko's, who are strongly suggested(stated?) to be descendants of Divine Ancestors, be incapable of becoming a Campione? Or is the blood too diluted?

And where did that last part come from? I was talking about Perseus, the hypothetical historcal figure, and wondering if he truly was a Demi-god, or if the stories made him one.

Campiones do derive their powers from the Gods they've killed, and are the adopted children of Pandora, so you could easily consider them a type of Demi-god. In which case, the story could have changed so Zeus became his father. Hell, look at it the right way, and the God a Campione first kills could be considered a "parent".

In fact, I would not be surprised if multiple mythological/legendary heroes were actually Campione's.

Of course, this is all idle speculation on my part, based on a limited understanding on the translated books. Feel free to correct me on any points I make, but I do ask you provide evidence if your not speculating as well.
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Old 2012-10-14, 13:40   Link #4617
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*Sigh* I am getting a bit tired of debating this. My explanation is quite simple to understand, I usually don't point out answers for people's questions, I usually provide information for them to answer themselves like here. Gods are born of Myths, therefore their origin is born from the belief of those myths. Human beings are animals born from each other so therefore they are not Myths. Quite impossible for Perseus to be a Campione since he originated from Myths. As for beings who can become Campiones, any human can as long as Pandora's requirements are fulfilled. Essentially all that is needed is a couple of miracles and the sacrifice of a God. Reread Vol 3, Erica's explanations are quite simple to explain what Campiones are. Only humans can become Campiones. The Moderators are probably not going to enjoy me posting this, but here is a piece

Spoiler for Campiones:
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:30   Link #4618
Gore17
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Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
*Sigh* I am getting a bit tired of debating this. My explanation is quite simple to understand, I usually don't point out answers for people's questions, I usually provide information for them to answer themselves like here. Gods are born of Myths, therefore their origin is born from the belief of those myths. Human beings are animals born from each other so therefore they are not Myths. Quite impossible for Perseus to be a Campione since he originated from Myths. As for beings who can become Campiones, any human can as long as Pandora's requirements are fulfilled. Essentially all that is needed is a couple of miracles and the sacrifice of a God. Reread Vol 3, Erica's explanations are quite simple to explain what Campiones are. Only humans can become Campiones. The Moderators are probably not going to enjoy me posting this, but here is a piece
What debate? I'm not debating here. I'm talking about the entirely speculative real, original, Perseus, who actually existed in history. I am not talking about Perseus the God, this about the hypothetical person who inspired, or whose story was told, in the myth of Perseus. Just because something is a Myth, doesn't mean it doesn't have it's basis in reality, especially in a world like Campione!, where magic and the Gods are real.

I'm also just putting out some idle speculation on whether all the Demi-gods of mythology were actually Demi-gods, or whether some of them were actually Campione's, with the facts distorted by time and distance. This obviously doesn't include ones who were entirely made up.

Anyway, I do accept the logic that a Demi-god can't become a Campione, I'm just asking if that was directly stated, implied or was simply inferred. That's all I'm asking, nothing else. I apologize profosely if I gave you the wrong impression, and for any frustration it might have caused you.
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:58   Link #4619
zzhk
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I think it's a valid question, though "demi-god" needs to be clarified first.

As far as we know, Heretic Gods don't bear children with humans, so there aren't any demi-god offspring born from such a union. Subordinate gods like Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi are not human to begin with, while Ena in divine possession could be considered in a semi-divine state but she's still human.

So actual demi-gods becoming Campiones is a non-issue, but it doesn't rule out characters known as demi-gods in legend from being actual Campiones in history.

It's entirely plausible for an ancient Campione to slay multiple gods and gain their authorities, thereby engendering new legends of a god-like being with elements from his progenitors. That could be one way for seemingly disparate deities to suddenly get associated with one another.
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Old 2012-10-14, 20:26   Link #4620
Gore17
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I think it's a valid question, though "demi-god" needs to be clarified first.

As far as we know, Heretic Gods don't bear children with humans, so there aren't any demi-god offspring born from such a union. Subordinate gods like Ama no Murakumo no Tsurugi are not human to begin with, while Ena in divine possession could be considered in a semi-divine state but she's still human.

So actual demi-gods becoming Campiones is a non-issue, but it doesn't rule out characters known as demi-gods in legend from being actual Campiones in history.

It's entirely plausible for an ancient Campione to slay multiple gods and gain their authorities, thereby engendering new legends of a god-like being with elements from his progenitors. That could be one way for seemingly disparate deities to suddenly get associated with one another.
Huh, that last point is something I didn't think about, but it would make sense. How deep does this rabbit hole go~?

As for Demi-gods, it appears that Hime-Miko are descendants of Divine Ancestors, so it certainly doesn't rule out the possibility of Heretic Gods having children with humans. Though they would probably be sexual deviants or view it as using a toy.

Last edited by Gore17; 2012-10-14 at 20:45.
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