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Old 2012-10-14, 14:01   Link #861
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
As for the therapy... maybe the criminal is exagerrating... maybe he's not confident that he can clear the therapy because he knows that he really has serious issues. Akane certainly didn't think it was bad(around 04:19).
Indeed,I wouldn't exactly trust the words of someone who isn't mentally stable.


Quote:
Please check Akane's dominator GUI.

Like I said... if Akane didn't interfere it would have ended there with them just paralyzing the victim. The result would be acceptable if that was the case.
What am I supposed to be seeing on the GUI? I know she was unstable but I don't see how putting the guns down and talking to her wouldn't have calmed her down,it worked later on when she had the lighter.
Though yes if she doesn't interfere the situation is over,that doesn't make the results acceptable because not everyone finds paralyzing rape victims to be acceptable.
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:09   Link #862
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
What am I supposed to be seeing on the GUI? I know she was unstable but I don't see how putting the guns down and talking to her wouldn't have calmed her down,it worked later on when she had the lighter.
Though yes if she doesn't interfere the situation is over,that doesn't make the results acceptable because not everyone finds paralyzing rape victims to be acceptable.
Hmmm... well if you recall the criminal scanned the victim and said that her Psycho Pass is already at latent criminal reading. Checking Akane's dominator GUI... her readings really didn't change that much.

As for the results being acceptable or not... well true that's up for debate. I guess that all depends on how accurate the Psycho Pass really is.
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Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:25   Link #863
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I had the impression that there are actually two separate assessments this episode:

1. an immediate assessment based on readers from scanners/dominators. This reading is used to determine the level of force the police can use.

2. an in depth assessment from the Sibyl system that determines how effective therapy on the latent criminal would be and thus his final punishment.

Recall what Ginoza told Akane while they were in the tent: They don't need to wait for the Sibyl's judgment. They can just go in. Soon after, the paddy wagon arrived with dominators. Recall how the dominator was able to produce an immediate reading from a drunk in the street, and recall how quickly it found the woman to be a valid target for lethal force. The great difference between how long it took for a Sibyl judgment to arrive for the rapist and for the woman suggests two different systems of analysis.

One could argue that the assessment for the woman was faster because she had a dominator pointed at her. However, this is inconsistent with Ginoza's suggestion that they could wait for the Sibyl judgment--without finding the rapist.

As for being allowed to kill without a final judgment, this is perfectly consistent with real world police practice: The police are allowed to use lethal force without a verdict, an indictment, or even an arrest warrant under the correct emergency circumstances.
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:26   Link #864
desrtsku
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Actually, I totally agree with what MartianMage said. There's no actual concrete proof that the system is really as "flawed" as it seemed to be. All the arguments presented so far that defend that statement are based on a mentally unstable criminal's complaints, a completely broken woman's hysterical outbursts and a chaotic chain of events caused by a rookie's unneeded intervention.
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I know she was unstable but I don't see how putting the guns down and talking to her wouldn't have calmed her down,it worked later on when she had the lighter.
If this one is still about how "acceptable" Sybil's judgement is then I'd say something like this : "It's not like everyone can be appeased as easier as that woman. It might have worked for her but someone else might have burned themselves down, human mind can sometimes be unpredictable. If we look for a 100% success rate without the victim running amok, I think shooting them down when they are in that state might be the best option. But it's just my opinion."
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
In therm of practicability, paralyzing her would be the easiest way, but that's absolutely not the best course of action, if we take in consideration the context and the potential aftermath.
For some reasons, this part looks like it can be used to counter the "There's no need to kill her since it's just temporary, stuffs" or the "Even if she can kill us at any moment in that state we just need to paralyse her when she starts to take action" theory too. Since by considering context, one can see that woman was about to pull off a Kamikaze ... makes you wonder what would have happened if Akane failed to calm her down or what she would have done after waking up (supposing they paralysed her in that state)
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:44   Link #865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
And do you know if enforcers are actually forced to follow what the gun tells them to do?
Does it matter? They're certainly encouraged to.

Quote:
And nowhere did I say that the system is perfect.
But you're getting on our case for pointing at glaring flaws in it.

Quote:
I said the system might actually be accurate
It went for "kill her" instead of "take five minutes to talk her down", so, no, it's not accurate.

Quote:
and acceptable.
Acceptable for whom? People accept the damnedest things. I know I wouldn't like to get tased for having a bad day, but I wouldn't presume to guess what your opinion on it would be.

Quote:
And again(lol)... if Akane didn't interfere then the whole incident would have ended with them taking the victim into custody and giving her treatment. Is that not an acceptable outcome?
And if they'd been a little slower, or the woman a tiny bit more fragile, she'd have been executed on the spot with the rapist. You can consider it acceptable all you like, though.

For that matter, I have problems seeing how unnecessarily tasing the unarmed, non-aggressive victim is acceptable.
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:44   Link #866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
All the arguments presented so far that defend that statement are based on a mentally unstable criminal's complaints, a completely broken woman's hysterical outbursts and a chaotic chain of events caused by a rookie's unneeded intervention.
Absolutely not: the chain of events already existed because of the very existence of the system. If the system wasn't in place, the victim wouldn't be as bewildered by the law enforcers (since she would not have any reason to be afraid of them). The chain of events was never started by Akane to begin with, it was the very presence of the gun and the knowledge she was doomed to be a "latent criminal" that sparked everything.
Quote:
For some reasons, this part looks like it can be used to counter the "There's no need to kill her since it's just temporary, stuffs" or the "Even if she can kill us at any moment in that state we just need to paralyse her when she starts to take action" theory too. Since by considering context, one can see that woman was about to pull off a Kamikaze ... makes you wonder what would have happened if Akane failed to calm her down or what she would have done after waking up (supposing they paralysed her in that state)
Except that if you consider the timeline and all, it is obvious that the system itself was the very origin of that vicious circle: the victim is afraid of being executed because of the system inability to sort criminals and genuine victims => the system sees her state as a threat => enforcers about to shoot her increase her anxiety => more psycho pass chaos.

Really, that's just plain as day: the inherent problem is the system and individuals know that well they are doomed if they go past a certain treshold, to which doesn't seem to be controllable by oneself, except with devices.
And technically, even if Akane failed to calm her, the very problem was her partners walking around with their boomstick ready to cap her out.
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Old 2012-10-14, 14:59   Link #867
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@Anh_Minh
Yes, it does matter.
All that I'm saying is maybe the system is not as flawed as you make it to be. Perhaps it really is acceptable.
You expect them to put all possible course of action in the gun? That's why the first point matters.
Acceptable for the people in this particular story. Again if the system was as flawed as you're claiming it to be then why do you think it was passed?
And I'll just bring up the first point again.

@Klashikari
What if the Psycho Pass reading on the victim is actually very accurate? What if she's not so mentally stable to begin with? The point here is that the initial recommendation to paralyze the victim and give her treatment is a pretty acceptable course of action.
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Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:03   Link #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
@Klashikari
What if the Psycho Pass reading on the victim is actually very accurate? What if she's not so mentally stable to begin with? The point here is that the initial recommendation to paralyze the victim and give her treatment is a pretty acceptable course of action.
The reading is not accurate the very moment:
1) the victim was not planning to do anything until she got cornered (she was still treated as a criminal by the system, even before she fell down and reached the tanks with the lighter).
2) Akane could reason her, and lower her psycho pass level to "paralyzer mode".

These 2 points are self evident the system is moment based, with little to absolutely no concern for circumstances or even "actual" reading of the individual thoughts and psyche.

And no, the initial recommendation wasn't to paralyze the victim to treat her: it was to paralyze a "latent criminal" and use the therapy afterwards, the very same way they had to deal with the abducting rapist. Which means the system makes -no- distinction.

And the system did consider the victim as "not worthy to live", by the enforcer layman terms, which translated into lethal mode. Therefore, simply because she was the victim who got shocked too much, she -deserved to die like the criminal who abducted her-, and that's without any redemption possible, which was proved otherwise by Akane's actions.
No matter how you look at it, the system is anything but accurate.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:06   Link #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Absolutely not: the chain of events already existed because of the very existence of the system. If the system wasn't in place, the victim wouldn't be as bewildered by the law enforcers (since she would not have any reason to be afraid of them). The chain of events was never started by Akane to begin with, it was the very presence of the gun and the knowledge she was doomed to be a "latent criminal" that sparked everything.
I was referring to that when I said this
Quote:
if Akane didn't interfere then the whole incident would have ended with them taking the victim into custody and giving her treatment. Is that not an acceptable outcome?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Except that if you consider the timeline and all, it is obvious that the system itself was the very origin of that vicious circle: the victim is afraid of being executed because of the system inability to sort criminals and genuine victims => the system sees her state as a threat => enforcers about to shoot her increase her anxiety => more psycho pass chaos.
she was already above 100 even before the other guy started to threaten her, there's still a slight chance they might have paralysed her nonetheless (either she feared the system or not). And she wouldn't have been threatened in the first place if her CC didn't get high after the rape, and it wouldn't have gotten higher if Akane didn't play the good Samaritan.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Really, that's just plain as day: the inherent problem is the system and individuals know that well they are doomed if they go past a certain treshold, to which doesn't seem to be controllable by oneself, except with devices.
My point is, they don't have anything to fear as long as they are under that margin. If they are above it, then they are latent criminals and everyone would know about including themselves, so what? We can't say anything (either positive or negative) about that as long as we don't know about how the therapy works and the ojective social consequences. People might not react like that guy, and not everyone would provoke someone with a high CC like he did with that woman ... and not everyone will have a gun pointed at them if they calmly accept to take the therapy in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And technically, even if Akane failed to calm her, the very problem was her partners walking around with their boomstick ready to cap her out.
What? if she failed to calm her down she'd have burned herself and Kogami down! But if you were talking about when she first time tried to do it (when she was around 162), then again what about it? At that time the system didn't allow her to be killed so it's not a problem.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:08   Link #870
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There is one thing no one so far has talked about. Between the perp failed arrest and the moment he took a hostage he did two things, he got some potent drug that made him kind of a batman/captain america in physical fitness and he got a hue scanner. This last bit is IMO very important because those should be illegal and even those who are legal no doubt are tailored to only function with one specific person (whom cannot read his own hue with it). If people could easily read their exact hue level they will no doubt do the same thing (or something worse) the perp did, his life as a human being was over and he could not accept a life of slavery (or inside some mental seclusion facility) he could go out with a bang. But this scanner he got could read anyone's hue level, so not only his level increased but also his kidnapper level as a consequence. So either there is a black market for this things (unlikely) or some people outside the government have access to these technology and give sell them to these guys to keep the government resources tied to hunting these small (but none the less dangerous) fries.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:13   Link #871
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My apologies, I forgot this one
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Does it matter? It went for "kill her" instead of "take five minutes to talk her down", so, no, it's not accurate.
This
Quote:
"It's not like everyone can be as easy to appease as that woman. It might have worked for her but someone else might have burned themselves down, human mind can sometimes be unpredictable. If we look for a 100% success rate without the victim running amok, I think shooting them down when they are in that state might be the best option. But it's just my opinion."
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:14   Link #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Nope, she was already above 100 even before the other guy started to threaten her, there's still a slight chance they might have paralysed her nonetheless (either she feared the system or not). And she wouldn't have been threatened in the first place if her CC didn't get high after the rape.
And that's the very problem: the system has a set score to define normal individual apart from latent criminals. Which means: simply for being brutalized/raped, she is categorized as a latent criminal, the -very same- category than the man who abducted her (who turned "in the danger line" only after being shot once and going on rampage).
Quote:
My point is, they don't have anything to fear as long as they are under that margin. If they are above it, then they are latent criminals and everyone would know about including themselves, so what? We can't say anything (either positive or negative) about that as long as we don't know about how the therapy works and the ojective social consequences. People might not react like that guy, and not everyone would provoke someone with a high CC like he did with that woman ... and not everyone will have a gun pointed at them if they calmly accept to take the therapy in the first place.
How can you soundly explain it is no biggy? You do realize that even the slighest violence can lead to severe psychological stress? Do you really think humans mind will readily accept to be paralyzed/tazed, despite they did -nothing wrong-?

And no, the enforcers did not offer the therapy whatsoever: they immediately pointed the gun with paralyzer mode on her, without even suggesting the therapy and whatnot, and the series implies heavily the therapy is -not- a cake walk.
So your point doesn't stand at all: the very moment you menace a victim, under the premise they are as dangerous as latent criminal despite they did nothing wrong, is the proof of the very flaw of the system: it does not set apart victims and criminals, and the former can be punished because they were involved.
Quote:
What? if she failed to calm her down she'd have burned herself and Kogami down! But if you were talking about when she first time tried to do it (when she was around 162), then again what about it? At that time the system didn't allow her to be killed so it's not a problem.
What about it? Look, the woman CC level was around 101, and she panicked after the rapist told her about it, which obviously increased her stress level by a colossal margin.
The simple knowledge of such system that will also punish you despite being the victim is by no means a laughing matter: no matter what you do, if your psycho pass is too high, you are just as bad as the criminal.
Therefore, the very existence of the system is a source of stress and fear that can lead to punishment for the innocent as well, which is not supposed to be, but still used that way.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:19   Link #873
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The reading is no accurate the very moment:
1) the victim was not planning to do anything until she got cornered (she was still treated as a criminal by the system, even before she fell down and reached the tanks with the lighter).
2) Akane could reason her, and lower her psycho pass level to "paralyzer mode".

These 2 points are self evident the system is moment based, with little to absolutely no concern for circumstances or even "actual" reading of the individual thoughts and psyche.

And no, the initial recommendation wasn't to paralyze the victim to treat her: it was to paralyze a "latent criminal" and use the therapy afterwards, the very same way they had to deal with the abducting rapist. Which means the system makes -no- distinction.

And the system did consider the victim as "not worthy to live", by the enforcer layman terms, which translated into lethal mode. Therefore, simply because she was the victim who got shocked too much, she -deserved to die like the criminal who abducted her-, and that's without any redemption possible, which was proved otherwise by Akane's actions.
No matter how you look at it, the system is anything but accurate.
1. And how do you know that?
2. And this is why I was saying that we're not sure if they are forced to follow the gun's intructions. The gun can only give interpretation of the readings it currently has. It's not an almighty judge on the spot tool.

And as Graveyard Duck has pointed out. There are 2 judgement systems. The gun can only give quick assessments. Sibyl issues absolute judgement. The moment the criminal is found out to be resistant to the paralyzer Sibyl issued that the criminal is no longer needed in the world. Did Sibyl issue the same for the victim? No, it didn't. And this is where the question of "are they forced to follow the gun's recommendations" comes in. And at this point does it really matter if they use the same tag for her? From what I can tell criminal or not. If you have a dangerous Psycho Pass reading you're supposed to take therapy.

The initial reading on the victim was to paralyze. The victim did not get a Sibyl oracle/judgement. The gun can only give recommendations on what it reads.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:25   Link #874
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I agree with whitecloud about the exceptions. This being a similar setup to Equilibrium, you probably have flaming hypocrites at the top. The only question is why they don't encourage the general population to self-medicate themselves into apathy.
What do you mean? In the present most Japanese "medicate" themselves unhealthy doses of alcohol to forget they are stressed to the max, unless of course they are too tired by their workload to get drunk. IMO apathy is rampant in most first world countries, their governments rape their constituents on a regular basis and they lack the drive to know what is happening or if they do know they just get drunk and turn on the TV to watch some sports.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:27   Link #875
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
@Anh_Minh
Yes, it does matter.
All that I'm saying is maybe the system is not as flawed as you make it to be.
Every flaw I mentioned is clearly visible in the first ep. So it's every bit as flawed as I make it out to be, and very probably more.

Quote:
Perhaps it really is acceptable.
Again, to whom? I'd consider absolute dictatorship acceptable if I got to be the dictator.

Quote:
You expect them to put all possible course of action in the gun? That's why the first point matters.
It would if they were encouraged to use their initiative on exactly what to do. They're not.

Quote:
Acceptable for the people in this particular story.
Yeah, so they accept it. Does that mean we have to? If you see a documentary on North Korea, do you feel an urge to compliment Kim Jung-eun on what a great leader he is?

Quote:
Again if the system was as flawed as you're claiming it to be then why do you think it was passed?
Read a history book. People "pass" all kinds of systems. Slavery, ethnic cleansing, you name it. And this system seem tailor made for people who think bad stuff can't happen to them. And again, I'm not denying the possibility it has virtues. But I'm not closing my eyes on what we've seen either. And what we've seen is a poor woman who nearly got killed by the system for being the victim of a crazed rapist. Whose psychopathic rampage was triggered and made possible by what I can at best call a messed up arrest procedure.

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Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
I was referring to that when I said this


she was already above 100 even before the other guy started to threaten her, there's still a slight chance they might have paralysed her nonetheless (either she feared the system or not). And she wouldn't have been threatened in the first place if her CC didn't get high after the rape, and it wouldn't have gotten higher if Akane didn't play the good Samaritan.
And it wouldn't have happened either if the system wasn't so... indiscriminate. Or if its agents were trained to be a bit more subtle in their approach.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
What do you mean? In the present most Japanese "medicate" themselves unhealthy doses of alcohol to forget they are stressed to the max, unless of course they are too tired by their workload to get drunk. IMO apathy is rampant in most first world countries, their governments rape their constituents on a regular basis and they lack the drive to know what is happening or if they do know they just get drunk and turn on the TV to watch some sports.
I mean that, in Equilibrium, there was a mandated drug (a shoutout to Prozac) that kept people nice and unemotional. I wonder why there isn't another one here to keep people's CC nice and low. Which alcohol wouldn't be, for multiple reasons.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:31   Link #876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
the knowledge she was doomed to be a "latent criminal" that sparked everything.
I wouldn't say knowledge as much as "belief", a mentally unstable person made her think this but for all we know it's not all that bad and the guy is just paranoid.Akane actually acted surprised he refused the treatment early in the episode and seeing how Akane isn't afraid to question the system I'd trust her.

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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
What if the Psycho Pass reading on the victim is actually very accurate? What if she's not so mentally stable to begin with? The point here is that the initial recommendation to paralyze the victim and give her treatment is a pretty acceptable course of action.
It would indeed be interesting if next episode we found out that she was a latent criminal to begin with,but I'm not sure that's the case since the rapist said "look your psycho pass looks like mine now " implying it wasn't the case earlier,of course he's not the best of sources.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:32   Link #877
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
1. And how do you know that?
Reactions and presentation of the scene.
Quote:
2. And this is why I was saying that we're not sure if they are forced to follow the gun's intructions. The gun can only give interpretation of the readings it currently has. It's not an almighty judge on the spot tool.
Then, why do you think both enforcers didn't bother and wanted to cap her out? Worse, why do you think Akane's colleague wasn't happy with how she handled the situation, despite she is supposed to have the authority to stop enforcer if their methods are considered not right? That's simple: he basically agreed they should just have paralyzed the victim on the spot, without bothering any further.

Simply speaking, the dominator statements are not orders, but definitely the course of action they are encouraged to use (which is enforced by the fact the Dominator changes its mode automatically without the wielder to input the change: so instead of being a mere indicator of the criminal mind state, it simply adapt into the function "they should be using"). To begin with, the way how Masaoka explained the lethal mode, it was basically judged by the whole system they should just execute the criminal without any attempt to capture them.

So whether they may not follow the dominator statement, the actions they take reflect the system decisions. And the decisions and considerations taken do not consider the nature of the individual in front of her, so stating "this individual should die", means that regardless what they think, they should just kill them, which Kougami tried.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:32   Link #878
Dengar
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44 pages already? Wow.

Having obviously not read all of the latest discussion.

Doesn't the gun just kind of read the target's psychological profile as it targets them? If you ask me, the system isn't inherently flawed. It just isn't able to predict what will happen later. It just came up at a certain "value" which apparently the higher ups, or the sybil system or w/e determines to be "uncurable". It doesn't seem to be able to predict what happens later however. Which leads me to believe the reading IS accurate, but the rules are flawed, rather than the system itself.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:38   Link #879
Anh_Minh
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I guess there's some misunderstanding on what we call "the system". I didn't mean the aura reading gizmos. It's the rules and procedures, the society built around them.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:39   Link #880
MartianMage
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@Anh_Minh

And this is where my issue come from. You're calling out "flaws" on the system but you don't even really know how it works.
No need to repeat myself.
And what if the next episode tells you that you're wrong?
Is this show a documentary made by a supporter of the Sibyl/Psycho Pass system?
And I'll say this again... if Akane did not interfere then it would not have escalated further. The system didn't even give the victim an oracle/judgement.

@Klashikari

But do you know what she's thinking? No, you don't. The same goes for Masaoka and Kogami. So what's wrong with following a paralyze recommendation?

And no the victim never got a Sibyl oracle/judgement.
__________________
Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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