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Old 2012-10-14, 15:40   Link #881
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I mean that, in Equilibrium, there was a mandated drug (a shoutout to Prozac) that kept people nice and unemotional. I wonder why there isn't another one here to keep people's CC nice and low. Which alcohol wouldn't be, for multiple reasons.
Governments mass producing drugs to appease the masses would be too obvious, but easily accessible virtual sex works just the same, it allows the brain to release dopamine which makes you feel better. Of course if your life gets exponentially screwed day by day you will feel shittier and shittier after the effects of the dopamine wear off.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:44   Link #882
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
And I'll say this again... if Akane did not interfere then it would not have escalated further. The system didn't even give the victim an oracle/judgement.
Do "police brutality" or "excessive use of force" ring a bell? Because you are not a desanitized member of the psycho pass universe, you live in our universe and you are supposed to yell "Foul" at that kind of behavior. I mean, you can already paralize on the spot a perp with a stun gun, but it is not standard procedure anywhere on the world for a good reason.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:45   Link #883
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And that's the very problem: the system has a set score to define normal individual with latent criminal. Which means: simply for being brutalized/raped, she is categorized as a latent criminal, the -very same- category than the man who abducted her (who turned "in the danger line" only after being shot once and going on rampage).
How can you soundly explain it is no biggy? You do realize that even the slighest violence can lead to severe psychological stress? Do you really think humans mind will readily accept to be paralyzed/tazed, despite they did -nothing wrong-?
That was an extreme case, not everyone would get a criminal CC level after being punched once or having his/her wallet stolen. And that's also why enforcers are trying to do their jobs as fast as possible.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And no, the enforcers did not offer the therapy whatsoever: they immediately pointed the gun with paralyzer mode on her, without even suggesting the therapy and whatnot, and the series implies heavily the therapy is -not- a cake walk.
Misunderstanding, I wasn't referring to that woman when I said that. I was talking about general cases of criminal running away after a scanner detected them and having enforcers going after them.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
So your point doesn't stand at all: the very moment you menace a victim, under the premise they are as dangerous as latent criminal despite they did nothing wrong, is the proof of the very flaw of the system: it does not set apart victims and criminals, and the former can be punished because they were involved.
Please, it's a "paralyser" it won't hurt them ... it doesn't even count as "menacing" in the very offensive meaning of the term. Also, I never denied that treating innocents as criminals (or in short how the system works) is a "flaw", I said it's not "that much of a flaw". Why? because unlike how it works our world, those apprehended innocent people won't be send in prison, they will be send in a place where they'll try their best to "cure their criminality". At least, I'll think that until the update says the therapy is hell on earth and their social life really is doomed after that.
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
What about it? Look, the woman CC level was around 101, and she panicked after the rapist told her about it, which obviously increased her stress level by a colossal margin.
Hers was 110, yeah it still increased by 50. But as I already said it wouldn't have increased if the guy didn't torment her about it in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The simple knowledge of such system that will also punish you despite being the victim is by no means a laughing matter: no matter what you do, if your psycho pass is too high, you are just as bad as the criminal.
Therefore, the very existence of the system is a source of stress and fear that can lead to punishment for the innocent as well, which is not supposed to be, but still used that way.
As I already said before, we don't know anything about that yet. What punishment? We don't even know what the therapy is about so how can you tell that? Or where you talking about the gun? It was just meant to paralyse the victim and put her into custody.

Dammit, I just finished writing mine and there's already 10 other posts.
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Last edited by desrtsku; 2012-10-14 at 15:59. Reason: fixing some stuffs
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:49   Link #884
Dengar
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I think that the entire point of this story is that the system is very twisted. It criminalizes and ostracizes people for crimes they may or may not commit. It's not like the ones who haven't done anything yet are going to be sent to happy camps, you know?
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:50   Link #885
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I guess there's some misunderstanding on what we call "the system". I didn't mean the aura reading gizmos. It's the rules and procedures, the society built around them.
I think it can be summed up by what the enforcer told Akane

"You can just do what the Dominator tells you.If it says shoot,then just shoot (...) you don't have to take it too seriously"

It's really more the attitude of the people in the system rather than the system itself that bothers me.Because really,shooting someone should be taken seriously.

Then again,the person telling her this isn't mentally stable according to the system itself
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Last edited by totoum; 2012-10-14 at 16:05.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:50   Link #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
@Anh_Minh

And this is where my issue come from. You're calling out "flaws" on the system but you don't even really know how it works.
No need to repeat myself.
And what if the next episode tells you that you're wrong?
Is this show a documentary made by a supporter of the Sibyl/Psycho Pass system?
And I'll say this again... if Akane did not interfere then it would not have escalated further. The system didn't even give the victim an oracle/judgement.
False: the fact you don't know the mechanics of a given feature or concept does not mean you can't call out flaws. That's the same as saying "you don't know how a CTR screen works, so you can't call out the flaws!". Having an understanding of a given item/concept helps, but the way it is used is fairly enough to note flaws and merits.

So instead of using "what if", it would be fairly less a headache if you consider the facts: a victim was -judged- as a latent criminal worthy of a paralyzer, and subsequent therapy.

Also, we are again going in circle, but if the system wasn't flawed, as in: not involving victims in its evualation and/or if the system was able to consider circumstances, the problem wouldn't even be present to begin with.
Assuming the system isn't flawed means that it was right for the system to consider the victim was a "criminal".

Quote:
Originally Posted by desrtsku View Post
Please, it's a "paralyser" it won't hurt them ... it doesn't even count as "menacing" in the very offensive meaning of the term. Also, I never denied that treating innocents as criminals (or in short how the system works) is a "flaw", I said it's not "that much of a flaw". Why? because unlike how it works our world, those apprehended innocent people won't be send in prison, they will be send in a place where they'll try their best to "cure their criminality". At least, I'll think that until the update says the therapy is hell on earth and their social life really is doomed after that.
You do realize that paralyzing someone on the spot require a certain shock on the nervous system? And such shock, however swift it is has a direct impact that can be sensed a moment, but is a major aftermath after they regain consciousness (it isn't rare for victims from tazers to have nausea and dizziness).
Being paralyzed isn't the only problem: it is also the fact you will be taken into custody by the police, despite you didn't do anything wrong. However "not menacing" the police can be, the victims are always subject to additional anxiety and fear, even in this day and age.
Quote:
Hers was 110, yeah it still increased by 50. But as I already said it wouldn't have increased if the guy didn't torment her about it in the first place.
And she wouldn't worry about it, if she knew the system would take in consideration she was a victim you know.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-10-14 at 16:12.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:52   Link #887
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The system wasn't build to consider "circumstances". It just reads the target's psychological state and assigns a value to it, and applies countermeasures depending on the value, rather than the situation.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:58   Link #888
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I think it can be summed up by what the enforcer told Akane

"You can just do what the Dominator tells you.If it says shoot,then just shoot (...) you don't have yo take it too seriously"

It's really more the attitude of the people in the system rather than the system itself that bothers me.Because really,shooting someone should be taken seriously.
A well built system would take steps to correct that attitude. Instead, it's Akane who's getting stepped on.
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Old 2012-10-14, 15:59   Link #889
Klashikari
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Pretty much like Anh minh, my biggest gripe is the "system" as the protocole stating: if you see an individual with X cc level, do this or that etc.
The psycho pass meter itself is "harmless" as again, it doesn't force the Dominator holder to execute the person in front of them. Instead, the problem is the way how the law enforcing procedure is heavily reliant on numbers etc (hence a system).
The settled procedures and environnement is the law enforcement system, which literally dictate measures that involve people that shouldn't even be pressed charges to begin with.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-10-14 at 16:10.
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:01   Link #890
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
False: the fact you don't know the mechanics of a given feature or mechanic does not mean you can't call out flaws. That's the same as saying "you don't know how a CTR screen works, so you can't call out the flaws!". Having an understanding of a given item/concept helps, but the way it is used is fairly enough to note flaws and merits.

So instead of using "what if", it would be fairly less a headache if you consider the facts: a victim was -judged- as a latent criminal worthy of a paralyzer, and subsequent therapy.

Also, we are again going in circle, but if the system wasn't flawed, as in: not involving victims in its evualation and/or if the system was able to consider circumstances, the problem wouldn't even be present to begin with.
Assuming the system isn't flawed means that it was right for the system to consider the victim was a "criminal".
Oh calling out flaws is fine and all. I even pointed out that I'm not saying that the system is perfect. To be more precise I'm saying that perhaps the system isn't as crazy as what you guys are trying to make it to be. And of course I wouldn't even be doing this if there was nothing I could use to back up my claims... but well there are such evidences provided by the first episode.

You'll have to forgive me if there's an instance I worded it poorly. But this is pretty much my stance on this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
Well yes, I'm actually trying to make the system defensible. Like I said it's only the first episode and we don't really know how the system works and we don't even know how and why was it implemented. Maybe this world isn't really as crazy as you're thinking it to be? Maybe Psycho Pass is actually very accurate?
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:07   Link #891
Dengar
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Ok let me put it this way: It's not a bug, it's a feature. Somebody decided that things should work this way, and they are working as intended.
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:09   Link #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The psycho pass meter itself is "harmless" as again, it doesn't force the Dominator holder to execute the person in front of them. Instead, the problem is the way how the law enforcing procedure is heavily reliant on numbers etc (hence a system).
That's why I'm wondering if this isn't case where when the system was created the numbers were just supposed to be some sort of guidance but as time went by people got lazy and just started blindly trusting numbers and it became the norm and what's expected even if it wasn't the original intent.
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:12   Link #893
Anh_Minh
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That's why I'm wondering if this isn't case where when the system was created the numbers were just supposed to be some sort of guidance but as time went by people got lazy and just started blindly trusting numbers and it became the norm and what's expected even if it wasn't the original intent.
Very possible.

Other possibility: people started just asking more and more of the system. They saw every news-worthy criminal had a story of high CC and started clamoring for the police and justice department to take a more proactive stance in stopping crime before it actually occurs, while never really thinking about what it'd mean for the innocent.
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:13   Link #894
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
That's why I'm wondering if this isn't case where when the system was created the numbers were just supposed to be some sort of guidance but as time went by people got lazy and just started blindly trusting numbers and it became the norm and what's expected even if it wasn't the original intent.
That is why they say "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" and hell on earth is what the dystopia we see on episode one is.
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Old 2012-10-14, 16:54   Link #895
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@MartianMage

I get the impression that you think the narrative quality of this anime is dependent on the defensibility of the Psycho-Pass system.

But given Gen's track record, I'm not sure why anybody would think that.

Spoiler for Fate/Zero and Madoka Magica spoilers:



Now, to be clear, the Psycho-Pass system may have a certain logic to it. It probably does result in more criminals being caught/killed (but it probably victimizes loads of innocent people in the process of getting there). I can imagine somebody like Light Yagami thinking that it's just wonderful.

But I definitely think the system is meant to creep out the average viewer, and to leave us disturbed by it. I really don't think that it's meant to be seen in a positive light.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:05   Link #896
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eh I'm not saying I won't be able to enjoy this anime if the system turned to be really crazy. I just don't see why I should see this world as crazy when: it cannot be proven in this first episode, a lot of evidence to counter it, and when it also doesn't logically follow.

And TBH I think it's more interesting if the system turned out to be quite defensible and not some sort of super oppressive and totalitarian system that you get to expect from a futuristic story where the world is ruled by a dictator.

edit: Also if the system turned out to be quite defensible... it doesn't mean that Gen can't make up even more twisted situations where it defeats the purpose of the system.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

Last edited by MartianMage; 2012-10-14 at 17:17.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:06   Link #897
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This was better than I had expected.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:18   Link #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
@Triple_R

eh I'm not saying I won't be able to enjoy this anime if the system turned to be really crazy. I just don't see why I should see this world as crazy when:
I'm not sure if it gets much crazier than taking an innocent person who was just raped, and treating her as a criminal, but hey, maybe that's just me.


Quote:
it cannot be proven in this first episode, a lot of evidence to counter it, and when it also doesn't logically follow.
With all due respect, you're overstating your argument here, and I don't think it's a fair assessment of the arguments made by Klash, Anh_Minh, myself, and others. Our arguments are not illogical.

There's not (yet at least) "a lot" of evidence to counter what we've been saying, and there's plenty of reason to think that this Psycho-Pass system is pretty crazy.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:32   Link #899
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Very possible.

Other possibility: people started just asking more and more of the system. They saw every news-worthy criminal had a story of high CC and started clamoring for the police and justice department to take a more proactive stance in stopping crime before it actually occurs, while never really thinking about what it'd mean for the innocent.
Just like in real life...the 3 strikes laws came about the same way. I still remember this story about a young man who got a life sentence for stealing a pizza.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:32   Link #900
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I'm not sure if it gets much crazier than taking an innocent person who was just raped, and treating her as a criminal, but hey, maybe that's just me.
She got a psycho pass reading of a latent criminal. Do you honestly think that the basis of the psycho pass is simply just stress? Or does simply thinking of something bad gives you a latent criminal reading? Of course I also don't know but I would imagine it wouldn't be as simple as that.

Quote:
With all due respect, you're overstating your argument here, and I don't think it's a fair assessment of the arguments made by Klash, Anh_Minh, myself, and others. Our arguments are not illogical.

There's not (yet at least) "a lot" of evidence to counter what we've been saying, and there's plenty of reason to think that this Psycho-Pass system is pretty crazy.
What I simply mean when I say that "it doesn't logically follow" is that the it does not make sense for this system to pass when it's as crazy as you're making it out to be. Unless of course the people are being ruled by a dictatorship and I'm assuming they are not because most of the time this information is usually mentioned immediately.

And what do you have to prove that the system is crazy? That the system tagged her as a latent criminal when you don't even really know how accurate the reading is? What if the reading turned out to be accurate and she really is a latent criminal? The system gave her the death sentence when there was no oracle issued by Sibyl?
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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