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Old 2012-10-14, 17:52   Link #901
Tenchi Ryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
I guess I'll repeat myself again....

Why aren't we even considering that the Psycho Pass is actually accurate and acceptable?
What about me?

I'm basically saying that. I even said something along the lines of this place being so messed up this is probably the only logical option they could come up with. As a person who lives in Chicago which is known for its high murder and crime rates, I can somewhat understand why such drastic measures would be taken, as I have witnessed and encountered the "dangerous everyday norm" personally.

After awhile, ain't surprised at all someone says f#$k this and makes it simplistic as hell to deal with the situation. You might not agree with how its being done, but I can bet one thing is certain, they ARE seeing the results they wanted, which is less crime numbers being recorded.
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Old 2012-10-14, 17:54   Link #902
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:01   Link #903
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
What about me?

I'm basically saying that. I even said something along the lines of this place being so messed up this is probably the only logical option they could come up with. As a person who lives in Chicago which is known for its high murder and crime rates, I can somewhat understand why such drastic measures would be taken, as I have witnessed and encountered the everyday norm everyday.

After awhile, ain't surprised at all someone says f#$k this and makes it simplistic as hell to deal with the situation. You might now agree with how its being done, but I can bet one thing is certain, they ARE seeing the results they wanted, which is less crime numbers being recorded.
Well TBH I don't read every message in this thread

True, that's also a possibility too but we just don't know yet. Not like I'm going to continue defending the system if it's not really defensible... it's just at the moment I do think that it is defensible.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:07   Link #904
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Agree. Now if we see some serious flaws, then its time we go in with pitch forks ready to burn it with fire. But from everything I've seen, not only has good reason been shown to use such drastic measures (this super sh%tty environment), but nothing the computer has done was really wrong. If anything, you might want to blame them using criminals instead of the actual computeritself. But at the same time, the system was made with the full potential of shooting your criminal lackeys if the situation arrises, so maybe they knew stuff like this could happen of a criminal taking it too far or misjudging something, and for a safe precaution, made them just as much a target as the original target.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:30   Link #905
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
Agree. Now if we see some serious flaws, then its time we go in with pitch forks ready to burn it with fire. But from everything I've seen, not only has good reason been shown to use such drastic measures (this super sh%tty environment), but nothing the computer has done was really wrong. If anything, you might want to blame them using criminals instead of the actual computeritself. But at the same time, the system was made with the full potential of shooting your criminal lackeys if the situation arrises, so maybe they knew stuff like this could happen of a criminal taking it too far or misjudging something, and for a safe precaution, made them just as much a target as the original target.
It is just the beginning. I bet they will start to question the credibility of the system. And there will be real psychopaths who donít have any emotion at all and the system cannot detect it. And maybe others learn how to bypass the system by controlling their emotions or using drugs.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:31   Link #906
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It's a big problem to kill people based on what they might do rather than what they have actually done. The whole movement of Western law over the past few centuries has been toward people having individual rights that supersede the rights of the state. This has not been true in other parts of the world -- East Asia in particular -- until very recently.

I hope we (both in the West and in Asia) don't slip back into the old ways of thinking the state/society is so much more important than the individual, but the threats (real or perceived) of crime and terrorism may drive us in that direction. Seems likely to me, actually.

(begin semi-off-topic political rant) Personally, I think the threats of crime and terrorism have been exaggerated in order to make us fearful and obedient -- and to make us want to satisfy ourselves by buying more stuff. Crime in America has been dropping, overall, for a number of years now, and terrorism has only affected small numbers, compared to the numbers affected by the West's military actions to suppress it -- actions which seem to me more likely to stimulate terrorism and war than to suppress them.(/end rant).
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:37   Link #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
She got a psycho pass reading of a latent criminal. Do you honestly think that the basis of the psycho pass is simply just stress? Or does simply thinking of something bad gives you a latent criminal reading? Of course I also don't know but I would imagine it wouldn't be as simple as that.
Well, what caused that woman's reading to go down so suddenly if it isn't "just stress"? A few reassuring words from a police officer, and her threat level suddenly lowers from "needs lethal gun mode" to "paralysis gun mode is fine".

I mean, it really does look pretty bad on the face of it.


Quote:
What I simply mean when I say that "it doesn't logically follow" is that the it does not make sense for this system to pass when it's as crazy as you're making it out to be.
I don't know. The War on Drugs in the real world is pretty crazy, if you ask me. Locking people up, and essentially ruining lives, because people smoke some marijuana. That seems pretty crazy to me, and it's going on in the real world.

I've seen some pretty questionable stuff get supported on the basis of "we need to get tough on crime".

Here I kind of agree with Tenchi Ryu - I wouldn't underestimate how far the general public might be willing to go just to capture a few more criminals, or eliminate a few more threats to society. And if Gen is providing a sort of social commentary on that, I think that could be very compelling.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:40   Link #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
What about me?

I'm basically saying that. I even said something along the lines of this place being so messed up this is probably the only logical option they could come up with. As a person who lives in Chicago which is known for its high murder and crime rates, I can somewhat understand why such drastic measures would be taken, as I have witnessed and encountered the "dangerous everyday norm" personally.

After awhile, ain't surprised at all someone says f#$k this and makes it simplistic as hell to deal with the situation. You might not agree with how its being done, but I can bet one thing is certain, they ARE seeing the results they wanted, which is less crime numbers being recorded.
Maybe because people here believe a woman raped is only a victim to save and nothing less/more.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:49   Link #909
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, what caused that woman's reading to go down so suddenly if it isn't "just stress"? A few reassuring words from a police officer, and her threat level suddenly lowers from "needs lethal gun mode" to "paralysis gun mode is fine".

I mean, it really does look pretty bad on the face of it.
If stress was just the very basis of psycho pass reading then why didn't the criminal take a stress therapy? It's probably not as simple as that.

Quote:
I don't know. The War on Drugs in the real world is pretty crazy, if you ask me. Locking people up, and essentially ruining lives, because people smoke some marijuana. That seems pretty crazy to me, and it's going on in the real world.

I've seen some pretty questionable stuff get supported on the basis of "we need to get tough on crime".

Here I kind of agree with Tenchi Ryu - I wouldn't underestimate how far the general public might be willing to go just to capture a few more criminals, or eliminate a few more threats to society. And if Gen is providing a sort of social commentary on that, I think that could be very compelling.
Well like I said to Tenchi... it's true that in the real world extreme circumstances lead the police to take extreme measures but hey maybe Psycho Pass wasn't passed due to extreme circumstances but because the public actually finds the results to be acceptable so far. It boils down again to us not knowing how and why was it passed.
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Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:55   Link #910
Tenchi Ryu
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Originally Posted by Lenneth4 View Post
Maybe because people here believe a woman raped is only a victim to save and nothing less/more.
A machine doesn't believe, it calculates. We see a victim who needs some help that could be a serious problem without it. The computer on the other hand sees a broken woman who's just been raped, completely unstable mentality and at the current moment a serious threat to others like she is. One wrong word and she could snap. Computer sees this as a problem, and to solve the problem, it must be eliminated to save others' lives. We are thinking about the woman's well being first, the computer thinks about everyone's well being.

Both people and the computer is right...its a debate on which way is the better right.
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:06   Link #911
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Most of the discussion about the applicability and validity of the Psycho-pass system can be given a more solid philosophical grounding by referring to the well-documented debate between free will and determinism.

The idea that free will is an illusion, that everything we do, or can even think of doing, is determined by chemical reactions in our body and brains, seems to prevail in this reality. If you believe that, then you must inevitably come to the conclusion that we are really no more than incredibly complex — yet ultimately predictable — biomechanical machines. That being the case, the calculations of the Dominator become no more than a routine exercise in the computation of probabilities, reduced to a simple yes-or-no scenario.

While it is interesting to consider whether the enforcers truly have a "choice" about whether to pull the trigger, the bigger reality is probably that, in a society that has come to take determinism for granted, such choice, even if it exists, is an illusion (what makes you think the enforcers weren't selected on the basis that they would accept orders without question?). It may be a false dilemma, but if no one is able to perceive other possibilities of action, who is truly at fault?
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Old 2012-10-14, 19:34   Link #912
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Ryu View Post
After awhile, ain't surprised at all someone says f#$k this and makes it simplistic as hell to deal with the situation. You might not agree with how its being done, but I can bet one thing is certain, they ARE seeing the results they wanted, which is less crime numbers being recorded.
ďA society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neitherĒ. Thomas Jefferson quotes
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Old 2012-10-14, 20:26   Link #913
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“A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither”. Thomas Jefferson quotes
That's an idealistic aphorism with very little practical use in daily reality, and I don't believe Jefferson was an advocate for anarchy. Just the mere act of living together as a society requires the surrendering of some individual liberties. It's not a question of whether or not to give up some freedoms, but rather a question of how much to give up.
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Old 2012-10-14, 20:40   Link #914
Lenneth4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, what caused that woman's reading to go down so suddenly if it isn't "just stress"? A few reassuring words from a police officer, and her threat level suddenly lowers from "needs lethal gun mode" to "paralysis gun mode is fine".

I mean, it really does look pretty bad on the face of it.




I don't know. The War on Drugs in the real world is pretty crazy, if you ask me. Locking people up, and essentially ruining lives, because people smoke some marijuana. That seems pretty crazy to me, and it's going on in the real world.

I've seen some pretty questionable stuff get supported on the basis of "we need to get tough on crime".

Here I kind of agree with Tenchi Ryu - I wouldn't underestimate how far the general public might be willing to go just to capture a few more criminals, or eliminate a few more threats to society. And if Gen is providing a sort of social commentary on that, I think that could be very compelling.

Yeah but drugs destroys life of people who use it.
You wouldnt your child use drugs , believe me.
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Old 2012-10-14, 20:46   Link #915
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This show is quite intense, as a few have said, this gave me a bit of Dredd 3D vibe, having just recently watched that movie, and also Minority report too. The guns are quite intense too, two settings stun and Northstar
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Old 2012-10-14, 22:23   Link #916
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, what caused that woman's reading to go down so suddenly if it isn't "just stress"? A few reassuring words from a police officer, and her threat level suddenly lowers from "needs lethal gun mode" to "paralysis gun mode is fine".

I mean, it really does look pretty bad on the face of it.
Akane asked the woman to "drop the lighter," not to calm down, remember? She said that if she didn't drop it then the gun would try to kill her. I don't think that's figurative language there. Both times when the Dominator upgraded to Lethal Eliminator, someone's life was at risk. For the Explodey Guy, he was holding a knife to the woman's neck. For the woman, she was holding a lighter next to a pool of gasoline, willing to use it, AND Kogami was actually inside said pool of gasoline.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Dominator can detect whether or not the situation is dangerous for "random" bystanders and factor that in as well. If this is true, then Kogami would have been in the know and may have purposely stepped into the gasoline to jack up the crime coefficient reading. After all, we do get a brief close-up shot of the scene.
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Old 2012-10-14, 22:24   Link #917
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now another way of thinking

what if the dominator was created in order to save those that are innocent? I mean, compare it to other ordinary firearms, it has the ability to auto lock itself when you are not suppose to shoot. Like what Klash has mentioned, the fault is not on that calculation system, but the protocol in which the department adheres to. Are they suppose to fully trust the system and ignore all the peripheral factors that the machine cannot read? While the machine is convenient, it's not meant to be absolute. Was there an incident where some cops hesitates and created a major casualty, which forces the public to demand more strict reliance on the machine? Do people just got so used to them that the power corrupts?

I for one would love to know how this system came into place. We are only episode 1 yet and there's already a heated debate in regard to the merit of the system. Too many questions that will hopefully be addressed in the upcoming episodes.
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Old 2012-10-15, 00:34   Link #918
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what if the dominator was created in order to save those that are innocent? I mean, compare it to other ordinary firearms, it has the ability to auto lock itself when you are not suppose to shoot. Like what Klash has mentioned, the fault is not on that calculation system, but the protocol in which the department adheres to. Are they suppose to fully trust the system and ignore all the peripheral factors that the machine cannot read? While the machine is convenient, it's not meant to be absolute. Was there an incident where some cops hesitates and created a major casualty, which forces the public to demand more strict reliance on the machine? Do people just got so used to them that the power corrupts?
Funny, I thought all that was obvious. After all, if being trigger-happy and gunning down innocents was not a concern, than having the Psycho-Pass lock would be unnecessary. And I thought it was also obvious that the computer was not originally supposed to be the end-all determinant of lethal force, because there's still a manual trigger (and a human making the final decision) rather than just some automatic firing mechanism.
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Old 2012-10-15, 00:46   Link #919
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Originally Posted by Terizent View Post
Akane asked the woman to "drop the lighter," not to calm down, remember?
Maybe she knows that telling people to calm down just agitates them further. "Dropping the lighter" is a concrete step she can take to save her own life.
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Old 2012-10-15, 01:40   Link #920
Terizent
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Maybe she knows that telling people to calm down just agitates them further. "Dropping the lighter" is a concrete step she can take to save her own life.
Oh really? I guess I've been doing it wrong all my life then.

Or maybe Akane knows that the gun dropping the lighter is a concrete step to making the gun update and lower its readings. All that waving the lighter around showed that the girl clearly had the intent to kill, it doesn't matter if she was the victim or not. The gun saw a mentally unstable woman about to immolate herself with a fellow officer. Then it would make sense to issue a execution. After the lighter was gone, the gun immediately updated and saw a mentally unstable woman, so recommended that she be taken away for counseling.

Speaking of counseling, I have an alternate theory as to why some people seem adverse to it, but others (like Akane) seemed to be okay with it. It's possible that the counseling is effective (and safe), but there might be some sort of social stigma associated with having to go to therapy. Iirc people who have abnormally high psycho-pass ratings are isolated from society, and probably treated like monsters by the general public. The government itself may perpetuate the image, Akane was surprised when the old guy acted like a regular guy. If it got out that your crime coefficient was high enough to merit therapy you would lose a large amount of opportunities, like jobs, marriage, all that stuff that the rapist was going on about. It reminds me a bit like GATTACA.

Considering the fact that the rapist also had a hue/PP reader, the devices might be common enough for everyone to have. When meeting someone for the first time, people might judge based on their PP readings. Alternatively, the guy bought the device illegally with those drugs and I am completely wrong.
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Last edited by Terizent; 2012-10-15 at 01:56.
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