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Old 2012-10-15, 12:25   Link #941
Graveyard Duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Which proper officer would instead of allowing the victim to calm down, proceed to level a weapon and said victim and proceed to pull the trigger?
The ones who come to the reasonable conclusion that the victim would do severe violence on others before calming down. I am quite certain that police officers are allowed to use physical violence to subdue violent victims--including and especially if the victim is about to harm himself. That real world police officers' nonlethal methods of subjugation rarely comes from the end of a gun says more about the reliability of tranquilizers and tasers compare to old fashioned grappling. If we had methods as reliable and as safe as film depictions of tranquilizers and tasers, I suspect the police would be expected to grapple with suspects much less often.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
It was jefferson (who modifieed the quote in different speeches), do your homework.
I suggest that you do your homework instead. Your attributed quote is quite contrary to Jefferson inaugural speech, which contains this little gem: "a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government; and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities." Your claim is quite odd when attributed to a man who is here advocating trading a little liberty for a little safety.
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:00   Link #942
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Your claim is quite odd when attributed to a man who is here advocating trading a little liberty for a little safety.
He is not advocating such thing, the problem is that you seem to think that liberty and debauchery are one and the same.
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:37   Link #943
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
Just following procedures for latent criminals.
Which is our point: the system brutalizes - further brutalizes - innocent victims without even giving a softer approach a chance. That's the procedure. But of course, to you they're not innocent. They're guilty of being unbalanced by torture.

She was unarmed and none too steady. Sure, I could see stunning her if she tried to run as vaguely acceptable. But not before talking to her without threatening her had been even tried.
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:43   Link #944
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which is our point: the system brutalizes - further brutalizes - innocent victims without even giving a softer approach a chance. That's the procedure. But of course, to you they're not innocent. They're guilty of being unbalanced by torture.

She was unarmed and none too steady. Sure, I could see stunning her if she tried to run as vaguely acceptable. But not before talking to her without threatening her had been even tried.
Which brings me back to my question. How do you know if they are forced to follow whatever the gun says?

Also the victim has a PP of over 160. Ginoza mentions that 120 = compulsive and highly aggressive

If that's what the readings translate to then what's wrong with them taking precautionary measures?
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:55   Link #945
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
He is not advocating such thing, the problem is that you seem to think that liberty and debauchery are one and the same.
Liberty: the ownership of a gun--to America; the recovery of honor in a duel--to Jefferson's peers.

Debauchery: the ownership of a gun--to Western Europe; the recovery of honor in a duel--to modern Americans.

One might almost say debauchery is the liberty we choose to give up in return for the government's guarantee of safety, but I'll take a more nuanced approach: America adopted its Bill of Rights in 1789, so Jefferson, in making his inaugural speech, would certainly be aware of which liberties were given up for effective enforcement of law by reading the 4th Amendment--which returns us to Benjamin Franklin's essential liberty.

Which reminds me, you've yet to provide the source for your alleged Jefferson quote.
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:59   Link #946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
If that's what the readings translate to then what's wrong with them taking precautionary measures?
I don't care if the reading is over 9000,if the person is in a physically weakened state and has no weapon that person can't do much damage even if he or she tries to.

The reading mesures potential,but potential means nothing if a person has no means to use it.
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:10   Link #947
wingdarkness
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I have to say after really being hyped up on this show I found the first episode pretty underwhelming….First off they started with a very forgettable Op Theme that was set to basically the final scene from Cowboy Bebop where Spike stormed Viscious’ hideout (The first sequence with the main guy fighting near the staircase was eerily similar to me)…I also found the CG to be hit-or-miss with the Gun transformation being hit, but visuals like the paddy wagon and other vehicles and surroundings having that cheap “Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd Century” feel to it….

The basic story is OK, kinda like the rouge generals in One Piece where the government hires the best pirates to exact the law, in this case it’s “Psychos”…But I am very weary of the female main lead who seems rather dull and predictable after one episode…It still has enough there for something great, but as it stands I’m getting a strong Witch Hunter Robin (Looks good but dull as a doorboard) vibe from this show… I seriously hope I’m wrong because this was the one show I’d been waiting for…
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:16   Link #948
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
Which brings me back to my question. How do you know if they are forced to follow whatever the gun says?
And I still don't see where you're going with that. Why don't you go ahead and tell me what answer you assume I should give and tell me what you deduce from it? Or better yet, describe both cases?
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:18   Link #949
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I don't care if the reading is over 9000,if the person is in a physically weakened state and has no weapon that person can't do much damage even if he or she tries to.

The reading mesures potential,but potential means nothing if a person has no means to use it.
But the victim got herself into a situation where she could have killed a cop after that.

@Anh_Minh

You're assuming that the system is crazy because you're saying that it has no leeway for other measures when in fact it does if they are not to follow everything the gun says. So Masaoka obviously chose to paralyze her in this case but it doesn't rule out other options.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:31   Link #950
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Which reminds me, you've yet to provide the source for your alleged Jefferson quote.
You can google it yourself, this is not some kind of obscure literature.

In your interpretation of liberty and debauchery you are now confusing liberty with a given right. and no, they are not the same before you try again to muddle them, for example the freedom of speech is a liberty, whether or not governments (present or past) all over the world give it to their citizens.
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:32   Link #951
Anh_Minh
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I'm saying the system is crazy because it encourages blind adherence to the gun's instructions, which are unnecessarily brutal and escalates situations instead of calming things down.

It doesn't matter to me if it's a hard rule or just a guideline. It's crazy either way.
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:47   Link #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
But the victim got herself into a situation where she could have killed a cop after that.
But I don't see how that matters in the decision process that comes beforehand,despite her PP she had no weapon when they first wanted to shoot her and you just can't assume she's going to find one,even if it did happen.

Just as a reminder I'm not saying violence should never be used,I'm saying it shouldn't be the default option in all cases.Akane showed later that a non violent method could work.If Akane managed to make it work in what was a much more critical situation later on I don't see why she shouldn't have gotten to try in what was a less critical situation earlier on.
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:47   Link #953
MartianMage
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I'm saying the system is crazy because it encourages blind adherence to the gun's instructions, which are unnecessarily brutal and escalates situations instead of calming things down.
It would have never escalated if akane just let masaoka paralyze the victim. As Masaoka said "It'll only paralyze the target, so we'll take them into custody and that'll be case closed." 08:04

@totoum

It's as simple as you don't really know what they are thinking and you don't know what possibly might happen so take the safe approach. Might sound ridiculous but remember... the victim has 160+ PP
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:50   Link #954
Anh_Minh
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Paralyzing is itself an unnecessary escalation.
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Old 2012-10-15, 14:51   Link #955
MartianMage
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160+ PP says it is.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:00   Link #956
Anh_Minh
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So you justify the system on the basis that the gun is not an absolute rule and the cops can use their initiative, but you justify the cops not using their initiative and just listening to the gun on the basis of the gun's pronouncement.

I'll stand by what I said. As long as she didn't move, you have to be an idiot and an asshole to threaten her. Just shooting her before she can register the threat is vaguely better, but not by much.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:04   Link #957
MartianMage
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I'm rebutting your statements that there are no room for alternatives but at the same time I'm also saying that you should not be faulting masaoka if he chose to do it his way because it is not a crazy option.
__________________
Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:05   Link #958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
It would have never escalated if akane just let masaoka paralyze the victim. As Masaoka said "It'll only paralyze the target, so we'll take them into custody and that'll be case closed." 08:04
Or if Masaoka had put his gun down and let Akane talk to the victim,both would have worked,I prefer the one that doesn't involve paralyzing someone.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:07   Link #959
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Or if Masaoka had put his gun down and let Akane talk to the victim,both would have worked,I prefer the one that doesn't involve paralyzing someone.
True both could have worked but Masaoka's method is sure to work. Akane's might not. In this particular case it did but what if it didn't?
__________________
Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:09   Link #960
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
I'm rebutting your statements that there are no room for alternatives
I'm not saying there are no alternatives. I'm saying the alternatives are at best unpopular, which in itself is a flaw in your beloved system.

Quote:
but at the same time I'm also saying that you should not be faulting masaoka if he chose to do it his way because it is not a crazy option.
No, just a profoundly stupid, sadistic one. Just shooting her would have been merely uncaring.

Seen like that, I should actually blame him a lot more than I do.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2012-10-15 at 15:21.
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