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Old 2012-10-15, 15:10   Link #961
totoum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
True both could have worked but Masaoka's method is sure to work. Akane's might not. In this particular case it did but what if it didn't?
It indeed might not,if it doesn't that's when you use the paralyzer.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:17   Link #962
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
You can google it yourself, this is not some kind of obscure literature.

In your interpretation of liberty and debauchery you are now confusing liberty with a given right. and no, they are not the same before you try again to muddle them, for example the freedom of speech is a liberty, whether or not governments (present or past) all over the world give it to their citizens.
Well then, allow me to present my Google result: Misattributed Jefferson quotes

The freedom of speech, as it applies to America, is in the First Amendment of the Constitution. The First Amendment is part of a document that is referred to as the Bill of Rights. Jefferson does not refer to "given" rights. He refers to "natural" rights. That you think of rights as "given" suggests a strong disconnect between your conception of rights and Jefferson's conception of rights.

Please stop mangling these concepts through misattributions and misquotes.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:17   Link #963
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm not saying there are no alternatives. I'm saying the alternatives are at best unpopular, which in itself is a flaw in you beloved system.


No, just a profoundly stupid, sadistic one. Just shooting her would have been merely uncaring.

Seen like that, I should actually blame him a lot more than I do.
So what if Psycho Pass can't come up with a solution 100% all the time? It's still not the crazy system you're making it out to be. At least that's how it is at the moment.

So let's say... for the sake of argument... the victim suddenly took the knife and held Akane hostage... then what? Please don't say that this is not a possibility. Victim has a PP of over 160.
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Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:24   Link #964
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There is one thing I should mention:

Akane did not merely talk the victim out of her criminal intent. She took concrete steps to demonstrate that she has the welfare of the victim in mind.

Consider this: the rapist showed the victim her psycho pass index: It was in the latent criminal stage. He then asserted that if the police were to lay their hands on her, she would be done. The victim's reaction suggests apparent belief. Thus, when the police first approached her, she may very well see them as enemies and refuse to believe anything they say.

When she was holding the lighter, however, Akane had shot another policeman who was about to shoot the victim. At this point, Akane had demonstrated with action that she might not want to harm the victim. At this point, the victim has more concrete proof that Akane could be her "friend," so to speak.

Thus, the fact that Akane managed to talk the victim down does not necessarily prove that Masaoka was wrong to want to use the tranquilizer, nor that the dominator's assessment was incorrect. Think of it as a natural example of the good cop/bad cop routine.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:32   Link #965
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
So what if Psycho Pass can't come up with a solution 100% all the time? It's still not the crazy system you're making it out to be. At least that's how it is at the moment.
If it doesn't train its policemen to fucking talk to victims instead of scaring them into increasing their CC, yes, it is just as crazy as I described it.

Quote:
So let's say... for the sake of argument... the victim suddenly took the knife and held Akane hostage... then what? Please don't say that this is not a possibility. Victim has a PP of over 160.
So watch her. Get between her and the knife. It wasn't difficult, the way she behaved. Which is another thing - a high score is a poor descriptor of the person's mental state. It's nice to have that as an indicator, but a single number can't possibly describe the entirety of someone's psyche. Which is why cops should have some more goddamn initiative.

Thirdly, if a high PP is an excuse to shoot people that is totally reasonable at any time, then they should be shooting the enforcers instead of involving them in police operations. Why aren't you worried about Masaoka or Kogami reaching for that knife?
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:40   Link #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
T
Thus, the fact that Akane managed to talk the victim down does not necessarily prove that Masaoka was wrong to want to use the tranquilizer, nor that the dominator's assessment was incorrect.
I just want to go back to your example:

Quote:
Let's look at a hypothetical scenario: A police officer on patrol spots a car that is weaving erratically. He turns on his lights and siren and follows the car. The car stops on the side of a street, upon which a person (the suspect) exits the car and starts to run away at top speed. The police exits his car and gives chase. After five minutes of running, the police corners the suspect in a dead end. The police pulls out his gun and aims it at the suspect. The police orders, in a clear and loud voice, for the man to put his hands in the air and turn around.
To me approving of Masaoka's action would be equivalent to approving that the police don't even bother ordering the man to turn around hands in the air and just shoot a tranquilizer right away instead.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:48   Link #967
MartianMage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If it doesn't train its policemen to fucking talk to victims instead of scaring them into increasing their CC, yes, it is just as crazy as I described it.
Oh but she already has an over 110 PP even before that point. If my analysis is correct then she's already a target for enforcement without the need of Sibyl's judgement.

Quote:
So watch her. Get between her and the knife. It wasn't difficult, the way she behaved. Which is another thing - a high score is a poor descriptor of the person's mental state. It's nice to have that as an indicator, but a single number can't possibly describe the entirety of someone's psyche. Which is why cops should have some more goddamn initiative.
So basically you're saying they should have risked it instead of using the safe method that is already provided to them.

Quote:
Thirdly, if a high PP is an excuse to shoot people that is totally reasonable at any time, then they should be shooting the enforcers instead of involving them in police operations. Why aren't you worried about Masaoka or Kogami reaching for that knife?
I don't know why are you even bringing this up. Ginoza already mentioned that they are exceptions, right?
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:49   Link #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
To me approving of Masaoka's action would be equivalent to approving that the police don't even bother ordering the man to turn around hands in the air and just shoot a tranquilizer right away instead.
Here is one response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
That real world police officers' nonlethal methods of subjugation rarely comes from the end of a gun says more about the reliability of tranquilizers and tasers compare to old fashioned grappling. If we had methods as reliable and as safe as film depictions of tranquilizers and tasers, I suspect the police would be expected to grapple with suspects much less often.
Another factor runs along similar lines: You are not comfortable with the idea of the police shooting a tranquilizer without ordering the the suspect to turn around because we have no methods of predicting a random suspicious person's violent tendencies without overt action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Thirdly, if a high PP is an excuse to shoot people that is totally reasonable at any time, then they should be shooting the enforcers instead of involving them in police operations. Why aren't you worried about Masaoka or Kogami reaching for that knife?
Kogami to Akane: "If you don't like what I'm doing, shoot me."
Dominator's description of Masaoka: "Enforce at will."

The police are perfectly free to shoot the enforcers. As to why they do not: the same reason real world police do not immediately arrest informants, and the prosecutors give light plea bargains to them.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:56   Link #969
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
Oh but she already has an over 110 PP even before that point. If my analysis is correct then she's already a target for enforcement without the need of Sibyl's judgement.
And using that score as an excuse to shoot when alternatives exist is something I find wrong. Do we have to go over this again?

Quote:
So basically you're saying they should have risked it instead of using the safe method that is already provided to them.
All things considered - especially how fucking small that risk was? Yes.

Quote:
I don't know why are you even bringing this up. Ginoza already mentioned that they are exceptions, right?
Because you're using that score as the reason to shoot her while dodging responsibility for the choice to shoot her. You say there are exceptions? Fine, so why isn't she an exception?

Look, we're going in circles. You see nothing wrong with tasering people who look at you funny, I do. Let's just agree to disagree.
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Old 2012-10-15, 15:57   Link #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
I don't know why are you even bringing this up. Ginoza already mentioned that they are exceptions, right?
And why couldn't that woman be an exception as well? She should have been one, given that she was nothing more than an innocent victim. One of the system's apparent flaw is that it does not distinguish between criminals and victims. Somebody with a high psychopass is labeled a latent criminal and a target for enforcement regardless of the circumstances. That is plain wrong. Victims should never be treated like criminals.

The episode even implied that that poor woman's life was over after what she underwent. That's messed up.
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:02   Link #971
MartianMage
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@Kanon and Anh_Minh

120 PP means highly compulsive and aggressive. The victim has 160. They are supposed to enforce people over 100 because they are highly compulsive and aggressive.

And getting taken as hostage by an aggressive individual is a small risk?


Also if you don't wish to argue then sure. We can just agree to disagree.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:10   Link #972
Kanon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartianMage View Post
@Kanon and Anh_Minh

120 PP means highly compulsive and aggressive. The victim has 160. They are supposed to enforce people over 100 because they are highly compulsive and aggressive.

And getting taken as hostage by an aggressive individual is a small risk?
Highly compulsive and aggressive? Masaoka is over 120 and he's a pretty chill dude. I think the numbers can be interpreted in different ways. 120 just means unstable. In the victim's case, she was not aggressive, she was terrified.
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:11   Link #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Highly compulsive and aggressive? Masaoka is over 120 and he's a pretty chill dude
Well except for the part where he just feels like like shooting a rape victim.

That's the thing with enforcers,since they have a high crime coefficient themselves I expect them to be trigger happy.

Gonna play devil's advocate here because while I do disagree with MartianMage I want to make sure his arguments are understood

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You see nothing wrong with tasering people who look at you funny, I do. Let's just agree to disagree.
It's a matter of trusting the PP reading,the PP reading implies that if a person with a high crime level coefficient looks at you funny then you better watch out.
I'd think he has no problem with people with low PP readings looking at him funny
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:17   Link #974
Kanon
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I hope we'll learn more about the psychopass system soon because I have a hard time understanding how it can quantify a person's state of mind so precisely. Can it make the difference between strong emotions like fear and hatred? I'd also like to know how it works on true psychopaths whose emotions are shallow. Are they easier or harder to detect?
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:18   Link #975
MartianMage
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Highly compulsive and aggressive? Masaoka is over 120 and he's a pretty chill dude. I think the numbers can be interpreted in different ways. 120 just means unstable. In the victim's case, she was not aggressive, she was terrified.
Sure it can be interpreted in different ways but it will probably be still dangerous. Probably that's the reason why a PP of 120 warrants enforcement even with no judgement from Sibyl.

If you read or watch survival stories... terrified and unstable individuals are the one's who start stupid crap that screws the group.
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Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world!
Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute.
Homura: Tribute? You steal girls's souls, and make them your slaves!
Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions.
Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you!
Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:20   Link #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I hope we'll learn more about the psychopass system soon because I have a hard time understanding how it can quantify a person's state of mind so precisely. Can it make the difference between strong emotions like fear and hatred? I'd also like to know how it works on true psychopaths whose emotions are shallow. Are they easier or harder to detect?
It will work easy on psychopaths



The hardest part will be to find Sociopaths...
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:35   Link #977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
unnecessarily brutal and escalates situations instead of calming things down.
On the contrary. Whether it's the paralysis shot, or the obliterate shot. The target is completely disabled. The situation wouldn't escalate, it would end, right then and there. Theoretically if you shoot everything you are authorized to shoot, there would be no trouble.


Whether this is morally correct is a completely different matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Thirdly, if a high PP is an excuse to shoot people that is totally reasonable at any time, then they should be shooting the enforcers instead of involving them in police operations. Why aren't you worried about Masaoka or Kogami reaching for that knife?
There is an actual cop available to shoot them at any time they deem necessary.
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:47   Link #978
orion
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post

The police are perfectly free to shoot the enforcers. As to why they do not: the same reason real world police do not immediately arrest informants, and the prosecutors give light plea bargains to them.
I would think that it's more like shooting the person who is suppose to watch your back is never a good idea. They may hold a grudge and allow you to get killed next time.
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:51   Link #979
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
On the contrary. Whether it's the paralysis shot, or the obliterate shot. The target is completely disabled. The situation wouldn't escalate, it would end, right then and there. Theoretically if you shoot everything you are authorized to shoot, there would be no trouble.
Only true if you actually shoot. Masaoka just stood there with his weapon pointed at the woman.

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There is an actual cop available to shoot them at any time they deem necessary.
A cop who turned her back on them. And they are people who know how to fight, so a much greater threat than a single battered woman.
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Old 2012-10-15, 16:54   Link #980
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Only true if you actually shoot. Masaoka just stood there with his weapon pointed at the woman.
That's his mistake for not shooting. It just proves the point even more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A cop who turned her back on them. And they are people who know how to fight, so a much greater threat than a single battered woman.
That's not what the gun says. Also what do you mean she turned her back on them? She actually DID shoot.
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