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Old 2012-10-15, 17:09   Link #981
Anh_Minh
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I mean, if we're going to take those numbers so seriously we're going to thoughtlessly shoot innocent victims, those enforcers are given way too much leeway. If we're going to take that "the woman could go for the knife and kill everyone" when she's being watched seriously, then we also have to worry about those enforcers. And they aren't permanently watched. They've had opportunities to kill Akane, if they'd felt like it. By the logic of "numbers are everything", they should therefore have been shot, no question asked.
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Old 2012-10-15, 17:38   Link #982
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Well then, allow me to present my Google result: Misattributed Jefferson quotes
That does not change my original intent, one of the USA founding fathers thought that "trading a little liberty for a little safety" was utterly foolish since in the end you would get neither. So please stop derailing my points why fruitless rhetoric.
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Old 2012-10-15, 18:04   Link #983
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
A cop who turned her back on them. And they are people who know how to fight, so a much greater threat than a single battered woman.
Do they know how to fight? We know Kogami knows how to fight, because we watched the opening scene, but Akane has not. But regardless, a person's threat is defined by both capability and intent.

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Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
That does not change my original intent, one of the USA founding fathers thought that "trading a little liberty for a little safety" was utterly foolish since in the end you would get neither. So please stop derailing my points why fruitless rhetoric.
Oh? Which founding father was this? Certainly not Ben Franklin, who referred to "essential liberties" and "a little temporary safety."
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Old 2012-10-15, 18:51   Link #984
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Oh? Which founding father was this? Certainly not Ben Franklin, who referred to "essential liberties" and "a little temporary safety."
So Habeas corpus is nowadays not considered to be part of "essential liberties"", who would have thought.
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Old 2012-10-15, 19:03   Link #985
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And which action in this episode violates implies habeas corpus no longer exists?
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Old 2012-10-15, 19:14   Link #986
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
And which action in this episode violates implies habeas corpus no longer exists?
The moment their guns went from paralizing into kill mode, unless nowadays guns (which not necesarily kill a suspect) here the cops are delivering a 100% sure death sentence without bringing the suspect into a court of law. Besides the detentions are done without any proof of a crime being committed since *surprise* no crime has been committed. Obviously I mean the moment the man ran when informed his hue was too high and the moment they attempted to do the same with the just released hostage.
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Old 2012-10-15, 19:16   Link #987
Kaoru Chujo
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The barbs over misquoting seem a bit excessive to me, but anything is good if it gets people to read more Thomas Jefferson. And I'm not even American. I'm just a big believer in the Enlightenment of the 18th century, when Western intellectuals began to gain some freedom from (as well as of) religion, and individual freedom began to be seen as more important than the power of the State or the King.

As for the criminal coefficient system, it does seem a bit clumsy if it can change back and forth twice in a few minutes, as it did for the victim.

If the state and society in general are more important than the individual, we shoot people on suspicion. If the individual is more important, we do a lot to make sure we don't convict anyone who isn't guilty, even at the expense of allowing some guilty people to go free. But I'd say there is a happy medium somewhere, and it does not include dubious predictions of criminal tendencies.

But the show is highly enjoyable, anyway. Seen on the show's own terms, the new woman erred in not allowing the victim to be paralyzed when she went over the limit. It ended up putting not just the victim but the cops in mortal danger. The victim would just be taken in and treated and then returned to society. There could even be a delayed habeas corpus hearing, as has always been common, I believe.
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Old 2012-10-15, 19:22   Link #988
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
and society in general are more important than the individual, we shoot people on suspicion. If the individual is more important, we do a lot to make sure we don't convict anyone who isn't guilty, even at the expense of allowing some guilty people to go free.
And at times we even have the innocent found guilty just as often.

Well we can all agree that this system dose indeed have it's flaws however we should remember that even with it's flaws it is still in use obviously because it works and thats all that seems to matter.

As the saying goes "the system works" it may not seem fair to everyone but enough people believe in it to back it up. However like with any system there is always room for improvement.
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Old 2012-10-15, 19:31   Link #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
The ones who come to the reasonable conclusion that the victim would do severe violence on others before calming down. I am quite certain that police officers are allowed to use physical violence to subdue violent victims--including and especially if the victim is about to harm himself. That real world police officers' nonlethal methods of subjugation rarely comes from the end of a gun says more about the reliability of tranquilizers and tasers compare to old fashioned grappling. If we had methods as reliable and as safe as film depictions of tranquilizers and tasers, I suspect the police would be expected to grapple with suspects much less often.
That is not the case here....

Ok, without the Dominator and just a standard present era handgun would Masaoka have aggravated the situation by proceeding to level his weapon at the girl?

At that point, was there clear and present threat the victim was posing to anyone yet? If anything, the act of threatening her with the Dominator made that threat (the lighter and fuel) later.



Of course, later having to stun her after she's prsented the threat is a "can't be helped, no choice" thing.
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Old 2012-10-15, 20:14   Link #990
Graveyard Duck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ogon_bat View Post
The moment their guns went from paralizing into kill mode, unless nowadays guns (which not necesarily kill a suspect) here the cops are delivering a 100% sure death sentence without bringing the suspect into a court of law. Besides the detentions are done without any proof of a crime being committed since *surprise* no crime has been committed. Obviously I mean the moment the man ran when informed his hue was too high and the moment they attempted to do the same with the just released hostage.
The phrase you're looking for is "due process," not "habeas corpus." Habeas corpus is a specific legal instrument after the police has someone in custody. The key in habeas corpus is that the police must have custody, and no sane legal system would consider a completely unfettered suspect who is sitting in the middle of several containers of gasoline with a lighter in hand to be in custody.

I have already addressed the issue of why the police must have the authority to kill people under certain situations. The only debate--and what Psycho Pass might illuminate--is the limit of those certain situations.

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Ok, without the Dominator and just a standard present era handgun would Masaoka have aggravated the situation by proceeding to level his weapon at the girl?
There is no question that Masaoka aggravated the victim's mental state by pointing the dominator at her.

There is equally no question that the situation would have stopped without reaching the lethal stage had anybody on the scene shot her immediately.

But neither is particularly important in determining whether the situation called for Masaoka to disable the victim.
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Old 2012-10-15, 20:41   Link #991
p-kun
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I am guessing that someone with a psycho pass greater than 100 will be detained for therapy indefinitely until the number is lower than 100, which is why for people who are naturally high like the enforcers (or victims that cannot overcome their traumas), that means live-long imprisonment and being forced drugs. In this context, the overreaction of the criminal and the victim makes sense.

I wonder if the unit (what's its name?) is short of people because of the high stress level - and thus, high risk of psycho hazard, the police does not to let people work in that unit for long (L&O: SVU dejavu). I am betting that one of the enforcers used to be just a normal officer.
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Old 2012-10-15, 22:02   Link #992
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I guess the problem that why they don't want to go to the therapy is more to the reason that the possibility that other people might know about it...

just like in real world, employer can requests data from the police to see if the person is a past criminal or not so why not cc reading as well...and it seems cc reader can be bought as well so other can see it just as easily...

People would avoid someone with high CC reading knowing the tendency for violence that they cause even though they have gone to therapy and everything...basically having high cc reading is a social stigma for extreme violence and thus branded as criminal...

Oh...just as an add on let me propose my theory on how they calculate CC level...

Stress level measurement + dopamine level value

Stress level measurement is a value got from most likely a combination of BP, heart rate, respiratory rate, temp, and some basic value that could be use to indicate stress

Dopamine level...it is said on psychopath the dopamine level is in excess much more than normal people (google it) so they constantly seeking reward...

About how that can be read by dominator...let's just say in the future they can...but the current technology can read using PET scan about how different area of the brain activate because of higher dopamine level...maybe it use that as basis?

So? Is my theory good?Or not?

Last edited by whitecloud; 2012-10-15 at 22:29.
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Old 2012-10-16, 00:37   Link #993
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Do they know how to fight? We know Kogami knows how to fight, because we watched the opening scene, but Akane has not.
They're enforcers, and they've been doing this for a while. It's a pretty natural assumption to make that they're a lot more used to violence than any random idiot picked off the street.

Quote:
But regardless, a person's threat is defined by both capability and intent.
But that's the thing. What the system's supporters are trying to defend is that cops can dispense with any attempt to read the intent of people and just shoot them based on the CC. That's what the system encourages them to do.
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Old 2012-10-16, 00:42   Link #994
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Old 2012-10-16, 02:08   Link #995
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They're enforcers, and they've been doing this for a while. It's a pretty natural assumption to make that they're a lot more used to violence than any random idiot picked off the street.
That indicates they are used to the idea of violence, and the episode demonstrates it. However, it does not indicate how well they can perform violence without using their dominator.

Quote:
But that's the thing. What the system's supporters are trying to defend is that cops can dispense with any attempt to read the intent of people and just shoot them based on the CC. That's what the system encourages them to do.
The system is designed to read intent, so of course it would discourage the police from using their own judgment.
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Old 2012-10-16, 02:22   Link #996
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Ah, dystopian thought crime land with Gen writing; should be interesting. There's some GITS vibes.

Also, Kana Hanazawa, etc

Although why would they send a newbie to do this kinda stuff? Seems like a huge liability. At least the body exploder gun thing is user friendly.
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Old 2012-10-16, 05:37   Link #997
jeroz
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we'd already go through the recruitment problems, no need to bring up the fact that Akane is new to the job.

One thing that has been bothering me though. The first time Akane went up to talk to the victim, why is she holding the gun in both hands in clear view of the women? Why doesn't she put it away? It'll probably be just noobie mistake though, however I think it's still intentional.
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Old 2012-10-16, 06:00   Link #998
whitecloud
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Oh yeah...it's just me but akane said she once write a thesis...i just realized it...do cop have to write a thesis to graduate from the academy? Since I don't think so...

I assumed she got transferred to CID fieldwork because they short on staff that's why she only have basic training on it and not exactly full knowledge on it..she strikes me as desk work type person...

If she didn't have to then the division that she supposed to be required her to write one, right? What division would it be? Since she said she once write a thesis about relation of cc if I don't mistaken, is the division where she supposed to be is the one related to therapy, and related to it...
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Old 2012-10-16, 08:53   Link #999
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For the time being we don't know anything yet about thesis or anything like that. Let's just wait for the next episode.
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Old 2012-10-16, 12:02   Link #1000
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Do remember that the victim actually WAS being a threat because she was about to make a huge ass fire.
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