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Old 2012-10-14, 17:36   Link #30861
Cao Ni Ma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
The fighting game pushes the idea that Rosa was an accomplice, possibly under duress, that didn't really know that Beatrice was actually Shkanon. It made it look like she thought the actual Beatrice that she killed was still alive and threatening to kill her and Maria if she didn't do exactly what she said.

I dont know, you could possibly fit EP2 with something like this. Some of the things Rosa says to herself are pretty big tells that she's thinking of that Beatrice. It would fit with her seeing Shannon dead and still continue to play the part even though "Beatrice" was already dead.
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Old 2012-10-14, 18:47   Link #30862
Kealym
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
So if Rosa is all in the scheme of things in EP2 then why is she and Maria depicted running from a swarm of goats "Maria if I fall run to the ocean and swim! No place is safe on this island" at the 9th twilight (presumably the explosion blast)?

If she solved the riddle she would know about the bomb right?
I also think she was just an accomplice. For Rosa in particular, it's probably not even necessary to mention the bomb to earn her cooperation. To answer your question though, I think that scene
1. Was a hint towards the existence of the bomb (I remember, at the time, I was convinced that the faulty boiler must coincidentally explode around midnight, or something)
2. A cool dramatic scene. It really shouldnt be forgotten that the forgeries are also intended to be entertaining and engaging, and that over the top fight scene with the troubled mother and daughter working together and reconciling was really good, in that regard. It's probably why we get time-magic-Kyrie and boudakai-tenkaichi-Krauss, as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
2. EP4 the red about Kanon. Kealym sorta explained this though.

3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.

That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight. EP5 the viewpoints were subjective so that doesn't really matter.
The red truth about Kanon in EP4, that's my own interpretation. I couldn't tell you whether many others agree with that...

About EP6, though, it's very wasy for Erika to not notice Kanon. Hideyoshi is the one who seperated the people into the rooms, and Erika herself did not physically check the room with the male servants in it, she only did a Meta check via Battler's red truth, where he said "everybody else". Erika also admits that it's possible Kanon was hiding in the same room she was in, under the bed or something.

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Hideyoshi and Eva are pretty obvious accomplices in EP1, or at least they are going along with Yasu's story. After all, they don't have an alibi for midnight, except the one they confirm for each other, plus they're totally trying to frame Natsuhi.

Only thing I'm not sure about is why she decides to get rid of them.
Well, she needs a Second Twilight. What would be really interesting is if George hadn't resisted, and gone to the guest room with them. It makes me think that in EP2, George was also supposed to survive until the end, but she wasn't expecting him to leave with the servants ... that is, maybe she planned for Genji to be dead in Natsuhi's room as well, and Nanjo/Kumasawa's location would've been disclosed to the survivor group with another cryptic letter. Maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Erika, no, Bern has no intention to solve Battler's game, she wants to destroy it with a humiliating logic Error, that's why she's looking the other way from Shkanon purposefully.

And suddenly I'm starting to get fonder of Genius Battler Theory.
Well, that's your assumption, and I won't argue against it really, but ... I always figured that Bern ALSO hates losing ... and if she knew about Shkanon, she would've used it to win the logic Error. Erika certainly doesn't seem to know about Shkanon, or she would've won easily. And while Bern DOES want a loss that's utterly humiliating ... I dunno, I think shoving Beato's big bad storming of the chapel right back down her throat with a "Ha, your so-called solution is as valuable as wet tissue paper, it's so obvious!" would've been satisfying for her ... and she has no trouble mocking it in the very next EP, after all...
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Old 2012-10-14, 22:30   Link #30863
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
The more I read into Shkanon, the more it makes sense. A few things still don't make that much sense like:

1. EP1 Hideyoshi being an arbitrary accomplice. I did read back over this scene though and he could easily be lying. I just wish there was some sort of hint for him being one like all the other accomplices had.

2. EP4 the red about Kanon. Kealym sorta explained this though.

3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.

That's about it for things that don't make too much sense to me. EP2 is a perfect Shkanon scenario and EP3 they sorta die in the first twilight. EP5 the viewpoints were subjective so that doesn't really matter.
I think the trick is that the whole game is mostly a roleplay game so piece Erika isn't 'real' and can't really see things on her own but solely when the player instructed her to do so.

However Erika is shown to depend more on teh gamemaster's declarations than on her own piece's observation maybe because for her they're one and the same (Battler tells her what her piece sees). So she doesn't need to have her piece check who enters in the room because Battler will provide her with the names of who's in the room. It's a mistake because if she had asked who her piece saw entering in the room demanding for her piece to check the people entering she would have noticed Kanon had 'disappeared'.

I think pieces are like 'black Battler'... who is going to kill everyone because... witch hunters wants so and not because he really has a free will and decided so.
In the same way piece Erika has no free will and can't investigate if her player doesn't allow her.
Dlanor after all insisted Erika (Meta) is also a piece who can't do what her master doesn't allow her to do.
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Old 2012-10-15, 06:11   Link #30864
Captain Bluebeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, she needs a Second Twilight. What would be really interesting is if George hadn't resisted, and gone to the guest room with them.
Hmmm... It's pretty interesting to think about that (I always thought there was some meaning to Eva suggesting that George come with them ever since I read that!)

After awfully like Yasu to change her plans depending on some small thing like that.

Quote:
It makes me think that in EP2, George was also supposed to survive until the end, but she wasn't expecting him to leave with the servants ... that is, maybe she planned for Genji to be dead in Natsuhi's room as well, and Nanjo/Kumasawa's location would've been disclosed to the survivor group with another cryptic letter. Maybe.
Maybe. After all, it ties in pretty well with the fatalistic attitude Yasu has.

Quote:
Well, that's your assumption, and I won't argue against it really, but ... I always figured that Bern ALSO hates losing ... and if she knew about Shkanon, she would've used it to win the logic Error. Erika certainly doesn't seem to know about Shkanon, or she would've won easily. And while Bern DOES want a loss that's utterly humiliating ... I dunno, I think shoving Beato's big bad storming of the chapel right back down her throat with a "Ha, your so-called solution is as valuable as wet tissue paper, it's so obvious!" would've been satisfying for her ... and she has no trouble mocking it in the very next EP, after all...
It's not really an assumption, Erika does openly declare that she is going for a Logic Error, not a victory. My guess is Bern didn't suspect they'd (ass)pull that trick on her of all things, it's doubtful if she could suspect it even works that way, even if she knew about Shkanon.

I'm also not sure as to what she really knew, but I think it's more possible she knew about Shkanon since it is always avoided strategically. It's unlikely that Erika, who was so diligent about everything and would even go outside in the middle of a typhoon to put tape on the windows just to frame Natsuhi would skip counting the names one by one and resort to something as vague as 'everyone else'. And that on the room the person in question was, of all rooms. Maybe that's why it bothers Battler so much. If the big trick was exposed by a word-play like that game's over for the witch side, but it's still a proper defeat. A Logic Error should seem way more enticing to Bernkastel.
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Old 2012-10-15, 08:49   Link #30865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama View Post
3. EP6 Erika put specific people into specific rooms. It seems unlikely that she wouldn't notice Kanon not being in his room he was assigned as well as the other people in the mansion.
Well... I mean, there are lots of ways around that...
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Old 2012-10-15, 09:13   Link #30866
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Ok, here's the bit of the bomb explanation from Our Confessions I had but didn't translate earlier. It's not very long, but I decided to release it now since there's not really a reason not to as it's unrelated to the epilogue.

The epilogue will be done soon. Maybe a day, maybe a week.

Just a reminder: This is when Beatrice had taken Krauss and Natsuhi down to the VIP room at gunpoint to show them the gold and had just claimed that she had control of the bomb device.
Spoiler for Bomb talk:


I find the whole thing where Genji just kind of magically appears there because it's convenient for the author pretty amusing.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-10-15 at 17:56. Reason: Added "long ago" into Krauss's first line.
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Old 2012-10-15, 11:50   Link #30867
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Ok, here's the bit of the bomb explanation from Our Confessions I had but didn't translate earlier. It's not very long, but I decided to release it now since there's not really a reason not to as it's unrelated to the epilogue.

The epilogue will be done soon. Maybe a day, maybe a week.

Just a reminder: This is when Beatrice had taken Krauss and Natsuhi down to the VIP room at gunpoint to show them the gold and had just claimed that she had control of the bomb device.
Spoiler for Bomb talk:


I find the whole thing where Genji just kind of magically appears there because it's convenient for the author pretty amusing.
I so love you for all your hard work translating this...
though I've to say the more I read about the bomb, the less I find it believable.
So now Kinzo even had guys who went to check if all his insane amount of explosive worked well?
And Beato carelessly says she managed to blow up the shrine without problems even if she supposedly isn't a bomb expert...

-_-

I wish the right solution was this is an embellishment, Battler and Eva escaped in the tunnel for reason X (maybe to escape from the real killer for example) and that the explosion was caused by some other thing that's not one ton of WW2 explosive carelessly forgotten behind by the Japanese and connected to a random clock.
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Old 2012-10-15, 12:33   Link #30868
Drifloon
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Well, that may be the case. This is all just the solution to the gameboards anyway. We'll never know the truth of Prime, if Ryukishi ever even thought of one, so believe what you want.
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Old 2012-10-15, 12:44   Link #30869
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Acually, the truth is that Beatrice is a hermaphrodite alien spieces that excretes the hallucinatory subsastance of Purupurupikopuyo while "doing it".

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Old 2012-10-15, 13:38   Link #30870
Renall
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Well, that may be the case. This is all just the solution to the gameboards anyway. We'll never know the truth of Prime, if Ryukishi ever even thought of one, so believe what you want.
The part of Our Confession just translated actually provides a hint to that:

On the island she had spent so many years... was buried an enormous amount of explosives. They could have, at Kinzo's slightest whim...... or by some kind of coincidental accident, massively exploded.

In fact, the entire discussion and subsequent explanation of how much effort was necessary to keep the explosives in working order only supports the notion that they would in Prime have probably fallen into disrepair and could easily have just gone off on their own.

Incidentally, I think such an interpretation would lend more credibility to post-incident writing of the message bottles (i.e. "this incident happened accidentally, so I will write stories where it was done deliberately and make up an excuse as to how"). But that's pretty much up in the air as far as argument goes, I guess.
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Old 2012-10-15, 20:03   Link #30871
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Quote:
Incidentally, I think such an interpretation would lend more credibility to post-incident writing of the message bottles (i.e. "this incident happened accidentally, so I will write stories where it was done deliberately and make up an excuse as to how"). But that's pretty much up in the air as far as argument goes, I guess.
I mean, in EP8 was still have the whole "No one is to blame" spin in Battler's game. Sacrificing one's self to be a scapegoat comes up too. We also have the fact that Ange did not appear in Yasu's tales, something Yasu would not have been able to know about until much closer to the date of the conference, not enough time to have written those stories before the banquet anyway.
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Old 2012-10-15, 20:19   Link #30872
Ryuudou
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The part of Our Confession just translated actually provides a hint to that
Which part was just translated?
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Old 2012-10-16, 03:17   Link #30873
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It has come to our attention that several people here are linking to scanlation sites that offer licensed content. This is a clear violation of our rules and something that can easily get your account banned. It does not matter wich part of the site you are linking to, simply doing so is enough to earn you a Warning and/or infraction.

Discussions that provide info or try to give hints about such sites are also not allowed. If any of you has posted such links or info in the past, I must ask that you remove those ASAP, else you'll risk a ban from the site and a permanent mark on your profiles.
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Old 2012-10-16, 07:19   Link #30874
Kiltias
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Questions if I may:

How are conversations during magical scenes interpreted?

It's just me but I just find some sense behind Belphegor mentioning Rudolf having anticipated the 2 Sisters with him mentioning that "Ever since the time Rosa was killed he had a general Idea."

2nd:
Why are the stakings so awkward in EP3?

5 not 7.
And weren't Natsuhi and Krauss staked weird as well with the thigh and foot despite the other 3 fitting?

I can remember someone saying no staking is needed for the 2nd and 3rd though why the sudden change compared to EP 1 and 2?

EP 1: Eva and Hideyoshi perhaps weren't actually staked and it was staged?
EP 2: Kanon not getting staked may be self-explainantory.Still beatrices line regarding Jessica sorta bothers me.
When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
"[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included"

Why the sudden change in red in terms of her corpse?
Sounds like her corpse was discovered yet there is no corpse in her room.

Terribly sorry for bothering!
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Old 2012-10-16, 08:23   Link #30875
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@Kiltias
It's probably more of a timing issue. When Jessica's body is discovered, she isn't dead, but is badly wounded. Since there's no one competent to help her, she bleeds to death. Then Beatrice says her red.
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Old 2012-10-16, 08:50   Link #30876
Drifloon
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Is there really any need for her to say the "corpse of" part in red? I don't think there's any significance about it; the red/blue statements are often started mid-sentence for no obvious reason, for example:

- The six linked rooms, the murders of Rosa oba-san and Maria, Dad and the rest's deaths in the hall, the murders of Krauss oji-san and Natsuhi oba-san...all of that can be explained if we suppose that Eva oba-san was the culprit.

- Know that my window is sealed from the inside and Natsuhi did not let Kinzo escape...!!

Quote:
It's just me but I just find some sense behind Belphegor mentioning Rudolf having anticipated the 2 Sisters with him mentioning that "Ever since the time Rosa was killed he had a general Idea."
Wasn't that about EVA-Beatrice rather than the stakes? I took that to mean that Rudolf already suspected that Eva was the culprit back when Rosa was killed. And we pretty much know why, what with Kyrie's deductions regarding the cigarette butt.

Quote:
2nd:
Why are the stakings so awkward in EP3?

5 not 7.
The epitaph doesn't actually say that the second twilight victims need to be staked. EP4 doesn't have them staked either, IIRC. Also, Rosa's murder was almost certainly unintentional, so it's not really a surprise that Eva didn't have stakes prepared.

Quote:
And weren't Natsuhi and Krauss staked weird as well with the thigh and foot despite the other 3 fitting?
I think Our Confession has a line somewhere about there being a danger of the stakes falling out, if that's what you mean. I don't actually remember anything odd about how Natsuhi and Krauss were staked in EP3.

Quote:
I can remember someone saying no staking is needed for the 2nd and 3rd though why the sudden change compared to EP 1 and 2?
The 3rd? The third twilight doesn't involve any murder. Also, the lack of stakes on the second twilight post-EP2 may simply be because there was a change of author after that episode, in-universe.

Quote:
EP 1: Eva and Hideyoshi perhaps weren't actually staked and it was staged?
Uh, Battler witnessed Eva's corpse, didn't he? I mean, he also witnessed Kanon's, but the stake had been "pulled out". Eva's was still stuck in her forehead, I believe.
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Old 2012-10-16, 10:23   Link #30877
Kiltias
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[QUOTE=Drifloon;4398919]Is there really any need for her to say the "corpse of" part in red? I don't think there's any significance about it; the red/blue statements are often started mid-sentence for no obvious reason, for example:

/QUOTE]

Just seemed odd to me.
Quote:
Wasn't that about EVA-Beatrice rather than the stakes? I took that to mean that Rudolf already suspected that Eva was the culprit back when Rosa was killed. And we pretty much know why, what with Kyrie's deductions regarding the cigarette butt.
I know.I'm asking if we can take that literal even if its a magic scene.
As in:
Can we take from these sentences that Rudolf indeed suspected Eva and anticipated an ambush despite it being magical.
You see, I was thinking that EP 3 has just quite a relation to EP7 in terms of events work pretty much perfect like a mirror.

Quote:
Also, Rosa's murder was almost certainly unintentional, so it's not really a surprise that Eva didn't have stakes prepared.
Yasu was present though.


Quote:
I think Our Confession has a line somewhere about there being a danger of the stakes falling out, if that's what you mean. I don't actually remember anything odd about how Natsuhi and Krauss were staked in EP3.
Its supposed to be Knee and Leg not Thigh and Foot.
Only stakings that weren't done according the Epitaph.
Quote:
The 3rd? The third twilight doesn't involve any murder. Also, the lack of stakes on the second twilight post-EP2 may simply be because there was a change of author after that episode, in-universe.
2nd is what I meant sorry.

Nice idea.
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Old 2012-10-16, 10:51   Link #30878
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Just seemed odd to me.
Hmm, agreed that it's odd. Also agreed that it's probably insignificant. If anything, maybe Beato wanted to leave a small space for a Jessica culprit answer at the moment. Probably just insignificant though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I know.I'm asking if we can take that literal even if its a magic scene.
As in:
Can we take from these sentences that Rudolf indeed suspected Eva and anticipated an ambush despite it being magical.
You see, I was thinking that EP 3 has just quite a relation to EP7 in terms of events work pretty much perfect like a mirror.
Well, fantasy scenes are in that awkward place. Where you can't take them too literally, cause they are deceptive ... but they also have clues. I think most people here agree with you that Rudolfs line was a clue that "he suspected Eva was the culprit".

I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Yasu was present though.
Well ... I disagree about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Its supposed to be Knee and Leg not Thigh and Foot.
Only stakings that weren't done according the Epitaph.
Well, Natsuhi's was alright (in the calf) ... dunno what was up with Krauss's. Noone else got in in the thigh. [/QUOTE]
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Old 2012-10-16, 11:26   Link #30879
Drifloon
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Quote:
I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.
I think he was probably referring to the main EP7 rather than the tea party. Specifically, how most of the scenes in Yasu's story have fantastical/illusionary elements, but they still provide a good idea of what actually happened.

But yeah, I don't really think Yasu was present during Rosa and Maria's deaths. The fantasy scene could be taken to suggest that, but Eva doing it by herself makes a lot more sense to me. Of course, even if she was there, it doesn't really create an inconsistency with the staking since she doesn't stake the second twilight in EP4 either, so attributing it to the author change probably works better.
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Old 2012-10-16, 13:18   Link #30880
Kiltias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
I don't see much of a correlation with EP7, though ... EP7 was just Kyrie on a random ass rampage. She didn't bother trying to lie to anybody (except George and Jessica, a little) or create any alibis or mysteries. It was just "this person isn't me or Rudolf. SHOOT SHOOT STAB STAB" for a motive that makes no sense.


Well ... I disagree about this.

Well, Natsuhi's was alright (in the calf) ... dunno what was up with Krauss's. Noone else got in in the thigh.
[/QUOTE]

I was thinking along the lines of a mirror effect.
Kyrie and Rudolf Investigate suspecting Eva and battling Evatrices furniture.
Kyrie and Rudolf rampage with Eva putting a stop to them.

Eva killed Battler.
Battlers fate is unknown.

The number of shots fired by Kyrie and Rudolf in EP 3 fits to the number of people they killed in EP 7 if Shannon and Kanon = 1.

I remember reading on the wiki something like:
Maria: The corpse leaves no traces of abuse.
In contrast: Maria strangled to death.


Yasu HAS to have been there.
Evatrice = the King in this Chessgame.
Rudolf pinned the King and the Rook.Evatrice said it herself.Kyrie and Rudolf thought they checkmated the King and are proven Bishops with Hideyoshi potentially aiding them as the White Knight.
Several indications put Maria as the Black King such as her status in each EP except where Kyrie and Rudolf rampaged.Her status implies several stalemates with the White King Battler.
However, a King cannot "Kill" another King in Chess as they cannot move next to another nor can they check each other.
The reason for this is because if Kings are next to another they check each other which is an illegal move.
In other words, by Chess Logic, Eva cannot kill Maria.
Thats why we see Beatrice doing so.
Here's what probably happened:
Maria/Black King was in a hopeless position on the board after Rosa was killed.
Beatrice/Yasu resigned/gave up and fell her own King/killed Maria.
From here on, Evatrice had opened a new game replacing Maria.
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