AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-10-15, 08:38   Link #101
Phoenix321
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Wait a sec! Wasn't it said that "Madara" destroyed the Uzumaki village?
We might get to see Obito actually doing it and then this flashback will finally become.. INFINITE TSUKUYOMI!! Just as planned by Kishi
Phoenix321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 13:20   Link #102
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
So just for the sake of conversation, something has been bugging me about what Madara initially said to Obito. Madara said it was like Obito 'slipped through' the rubble. I'm still under the impression that that is Obito's MS technique Kamui that allows him to slip through things. And clearly Obito didn't have MS when he first met Madara. Now we find out (although I suspected it) that Madara actually chose Obito. Which means Obito didn't slip through the rubble into Madara's hideout, but was brought there, presumably by Zetsu. So that then means that Madara knew what Obito's MS technique would be before Obito got it. Which would then imply that Madara did know Obito's lineage and was expecting him to develop Kamui. SO I would then assume that Izuna and/or Madara had Kamui and Obito is his descendant and that Madara planned this whole scenario with Obito in mind. Just some speculation...

of course it could also be that Obito's regular sharingan is capable of using a weakened Kamui, but I'm not a fan of that idea since Kakashi, Itachi and Sasuke can't use weakened MS techniques while in a normal sharingan state. I think MS should have its own specific techniques that can't be used otherwise.
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 14:13   Link #103
Discerptor
ANIUE!111
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
of course it could also be that Obito's regular sharingan is capable of using a weakened Kamui, but I'm not a fan of that idea since Kakashi, Itachi and Sasuke can't use weakened MS techniques while in a normal sharingan state. I think MS should have its own specific techniques that can't be used otherwise.
But we already know Tobi can slip through things with just the normal Sharingan activated. It was explicitly shown in his fight against Konan. Madara's comment only reconfirms it.
Discerptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 15:30   Link #104
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discerptor View Post
But we already know Tobi can slip through things with just the normal Sharingan activated. It was explicitly shown in his fight against Konan. Madara's comment only reconfirms it.
we know that tobi slipping through things is the same technique as him sucking objects into another dimension as confirmed by kakashi which is kamui. that panel in the konan fight can be explained 2 ways. 1 is that he just deactivated MS. the 2nd is that kishi purposely didnt want to show tobi's MS design at that time. until it's said that obito can use kamui without MS it isnt a fact and doesn't even make sense in the context of the series given kakashi's usage of kamui specifically with MS activated and the reveal that tobi was obito with the same MS eye as kakashi
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 17:03   Link #105
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Remember when Itachi used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi? The Mangekyou Sharingan wouldn't even be revealed until like 5-10 chapters later (not sure of the exact number).
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 19:46   Link #106
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
we know that tobi slipping through things is the same technique as him sucking objects into another dimension as confirmed by kakashi which is kamui. that panel in the konan fight can be explained 2 ways. 1 is that he just deactivated MS. the 2nd is that kishi purposely didnt want to show tobi's MS design at that time. until it's said that obito can use kamui without MS it isnt a fact and doesn't even make sense in the context of the series given kakashi's usage of kamui specifically with MS activated and the reveal that tobi was obito with the same MS eye as kakashi
madara's words does give you food for thought but I'm inclined to believe that obito didn't actually slip through the rubble, and rather just fell into the tunnel. my position is that hashirama's dna is what powers obito sharingan with the ability to phase in and out, just as it was mentioned that hash's dna could increase the frequency of shisui's jutsu. just speculating though...
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 22:39   Link #107
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
madara's words does give you food for thought but I'm inclined to believe that obito didn't actually slip through the rubble, and rather just fell into the tunnel.
i dont think he slipped through the rubble either. but i think zetsu brought him to madara. madara's underground base being right under the bridge is too coincidental for me.

Quote:
my position is that hashirama's dna is what powers obito sharingan with the ability to phase in and out, just as it was mentioned that hash's dna could increase the frequency of shisui's jutsu. just speculating though...
kakashi said himself that's it's the same jutsu (kamui) and who else to be a better expert on the technique than someone who can use it himself? despite being at a lesser level than obito, kakashi can still recognize the technique being used at it's ultimate level. also, kakashi doesn't need any help from hashirama cells to use kamui, so i dont think obito does either. i think the cells come into play for how often obito can use it without much deterioration to his eyes or stamina
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 22:43   Link #108
ZGoten
Custom User Title
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Age: 24
Send a message via ICQ to ZGoten
I have to say that visually this was one of the most amazing chapters in the series. In terms of content, it didn't actually show much, though. On another note, this chapter demonstrates powerfully the one thing I dislike so much about the manga. Certain abilities are just way too powerful. I mean look at Obito. He went from being useless dropout to an army slaying powerhouse in a couple of days, just because he unlocked his MS and got injected with Senju DNA. I mean really, at this point of the story, unless you have the Sharingan or Senju DNA, you just might as well kill yourself before the big guys do it.

Anyway, enough with the rant. I really enjoyed this chapter for its beautiful goriness.
__________________
Truth is elusive to those who refuse to see with both eyes.
ZGoten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 22:49   Link #109
HiddenMessage
HuH~?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Page 17 of the 9 Yin Manual
Age: 24
If the Edo Tensei revives people to the point at which they died then something is not adding up. Madara was revived with his original eyes and the ability to use the Rinnegan but these new chapters show him mentoring Obito with a single borrowed Sharingan. Is the timeline messed up or is that location a gateway to the realm of death?
HiddenMessage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-15, 23:22   Link #110
Essenar
Fallen Angel
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: San Diego, Ca
Send a message via AIM to Essenar
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenMessage View Post
If the Edo Tensei revives people to the point at which they died then something is not adding up. Madara was revived with his original eyes and the ability to use the Rinnegan but these new chapters show him mentoring Obito with a single borrowed Sharingan. Is the timeline messed up or is that location a gateway to the realm of death?
Remember that Kabuto told Madara that he modified Madara's body to make him more powerful. "Your impure world resurrection is a special version. You've been completed beyond what you were in your prime."

Remember that Impure World Resurrection doesn't require you to summon the resurrected at the time you revive them. You're thinking of Rinne Tensei which revives people to their condition before death or at least, the condition the corpse was in, and they immediately awake. Edo Tensei is merely placing a soul in a body, but the body is in a casket until you summon them. My guess is, just like Obito placed Rinnegan and Sharingan eyes into the Jinchuuriki to 'modify' them, Kabuto modified Madara by making him younger but retaining his ability to use Rinnegan.
Essenar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 07:32   Link #111
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i dont think he slipped through the rubble either. but i think zetsu brought him to madara. madara's underground base being right under the bridge is too coincidental for me.

kakashi said himself that's it's the same jutsu (kamui) and who else to be a better expert on the technique than someone who can use it himself? despite being at a lesser level than obito, kakashi can still recognize the technique being used at it's ultimate level. also, kakashi doesn't need any help from hashirama cells to use kamui, so i dont think obito does either. i think the cells come into play for how often obito can use it without much deterioration to his eyes or stamina
I mostly agree, but I wasn't saying hash's DNA was needed for the actual kamui (spiraling things in and out of dimensions) but rather obitos ability to slip through things. Although I bring this up for the sake of conversation, some part of me thinks kakashi didnt get it all right. imo obito is effectively using two jutsu that share the same dimension (i understand we have been explicitly told otherwise, i guess something just sounds a little off to me). in addition i dont think kakashi is using a watered down version of kamui. obito literally has to grab people to transport them. kakashi can aim his so he is just using the power of the left eye.

And yes at the very least hash's dna probably provides obito with stamina as u mention, but why doesn't kakashi eye bleed?
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 09:02   Link #112
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenMessage View Post
If the Edo Tensei revives people to the point at which they died then something is not adding up. Madara was revived with his original eyes and the ability to use the Rinnegan but these new chapters show him mentoring Obito with a single borrowed Sharingan. Is the timeline messed up or is that location a gateway to the realm of death?
Essenar is basically right, but to simplify what he said, kabuto says that he revived Madara in his prime which explains his youthfulness as an ET zombie. and Madara was also modified beyond that with Hashirama DNA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
I mostly agree, but I wasn't saying hash's DNA was needed for the actual kamui (spiraling things in and out of dimensions) but rather obitos ability to slip through things. Although I bring this up for the sake of conversation, some part of me thinks kakashi didnt get it all right. imo obito is effectively using two jutsu that share the same dimension (i understand we have been explicitly told otherwise, i guess something just sounds a little off to me).
I doubt kishi would backtrack from that statement. basically kamui is the technique that transports things, including the user, into the other dimension. it just has a couple different ways of being used

Quote:
in addition i dont think kakashi is using a watered down version of kamui. obito literally has to grab people to transport them. kakashi can aim his so he is just using the power of the left eye.
yea i've thought it could be something like this as well. it could also be that grabbing them requires less stamina than sniping them, which would partially explain obito's ability to use kamui so much more than kakashi, but for now i think they are slightly different powers in each eye. i guess we just have to wait and see the explanation

Quote:
And yes at the very least hash's dna probably provides obito with stamina as u mention, but why doesn't kakashi eye bleed?
not really sure. maybe it's just amaterasu that causes it? i dont really remember all the various eye bleedings, but the ones i do are all from amaterasu i think
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 12:20   Link #113
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
I find it confusing to refer to the phasing, the absorbing, and the 'sending stuff you're looking at to another dimension' as the same technique. I mean, don't get me wrong, I accepted that they're essentially using the same principle. It's just that, if you say "use Kamui", do you mean the phasing, the absorbing, or the transporting? It's confusing.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 14:00   Link #114
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post

I doubt kishi would backtrack from that statement. basically kamui is the technique that transports things, including the user, into the other dimension. it just has a couple different ways of being used


not really sure. maybe it's just amaterasu that causes it? i dont really remember all the various eye bleedings, but the ones i do are all from amaterasu i think
1. soooo its two jutsus?!?!??? LOL
2. obitos eye is bleeding at the end of this chapter. he's using the mangekyou, i just don't think kamui and the phasing are the same mechanism...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I find it confusing to refer to the phasing, the absorbing, and the 'sending stuff you're looking at to another dimension' as the same technique. I mean, don't get me wrong, I accepted that they're essentially using the same principle. It's just that, if you say "use Kamui", do you mean the phasing, the absorbing, or the transporting? It's confusing.
i interpret kamui to mean transporting (kakashi) and absorbing(obito). per my discussion with itachi-san, i feel like the phasing in and out that obito does is a byproduct of having shodai's cell. i say this because when Kamui is engaged, we see a spiral design encompassing a pinpoint spot in the atmosphere and things are either absorbed or transported into that spot. this is the featured that is shared between obito and kakashi. kashashi aims his spot, and obito "spot" is the eye itself.
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 15:44   Link #115
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
It's been proven that his phasing is of the same nature though. He just transports parts of himself to the other dimension making it appear that objects are passing through them.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 17:35   Link #116
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I find it confusing to refer to the phasing, the absorbing, and the 'sending stuff you're looking at to another dimension' as the same technique. I mean, don't get me wrong, I accepted that they're essentially using the same principle. It's just that, if you say "use Kamui", do you mean the phasing, the absorbing, or the transporting? It's confusing.
but they all are the same thing. phasing is actually incorrect to say if you mean it like a 'no-clipping' technique. obito is actually transporting parts of his body to another dimension as he walks through a wall. every kamui move we've seen is just transporting something to another dimension, even body parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
1. soooo its two jutsus?!?!??? LOL
no. we've seen a number of different applications for kage bunshin for instance, yet it's all still the same technique. no matter what's going on, kamui is the transportation of something into another dimension via the sharingan.

Quote:
2. obitos eye is bleeding at the end of this chapter. he's using the mangekyou, i just don't think kamui and the phasing are the same mechanism...
i dont think his eye is bleeding in that panel. he had a downpour of blood onto him and that is the splash that went through the whole in the spiral zetsu mask.

Quote:
i interpret kamui to mean transporting (kakashi) and absorbing(obito). per my discussion with itachi-san, i feel like the phasing in and out that obito does is a byproduct of having shodai's cell. i say this because when Kamui is engaged, we see a spiral design encompassing a pinpoint spot in the atmosphere and things are either absorbed or transported into that spot. this is the featured that is shared between obito and kakashi. kashashi aims his spot, and obito "spot" is the eye itself.
i still see it as all the same technique. i would like to know why obito always touches his targets, but it's all a spiraling vortex. when he's 'phasing' we just don't see the spiral. it's like kishi omitting the hand signs for every technique. it would get old and he doesn't want to constantly draw them. i think it's safe to assume that anytime kamui is used, there is a spiraling vortex that transports anything to another dimension. when tobi brought sasuke back to fight danzo from the other dimension, both sasuke and tobi spiraled out of the dimension, it wasn't just sasuke spiraling. obito just has a ridiculous grasp on the kamui technique and can transport his body piece by piece if needed.
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 18:25   Link #117
Artimus_Prime
The First Rasengan!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i dont think his eye is bleeding in that panel. he had a downpour of blood onto him and that is the splash that went through the whole in the spiral zetsu mask.
maybe

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i still see it as all the same technique. i would like to know why obito always touches his targets, but it's all a spiraling vortex. when he's 'phasing' we just don't see the spiral. it's like kishi omitting the hand signs for every technique. it would get old and he doesn't want to constantly draw them. i think it's safe to assume that anytime kamui is used, there is a spiraling vortex that transports anything to another dimension. when tobi brought sasuke back to fight danzo from the other dimension, both sasuke and tobi spiraled out of the dimension, it wasn't just sasuke spiraling. obito just has a ridiculous grasp on the kamui technique and can transport his body piece by piece if needed.
obito has to touch his targets because the vortex (Kamui) that he creates is located at his sharingan. he hasn't been shown capable of aiming it anywhere. kakashi on the other hand doesn't have touch because the power of the left eye apparently allows him to aim the vortex elsewhere. the spiral isn't omitted when phasing because the spiral is only associated the vortex/kamui. that is why every time we see kamui we see the spiral. if obito is sending body parts to his other dimension via kamui he would have to do so via his right eye and we would see a spiral. but we don't. kishi isn't not drawing the spiral, obito is not using the vortex to phase. if so, kashashi would not have had to send that kunai to the other dimension. it would have vanished alongside tobis mask. I'm not saying the phasing is separate from the mangekyou, its just knot kamui proper
__________________
Mokujin Rasengan
Artimus_Prime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-16, 19:50   Link #118
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime View Post
maybe
i think i'm right about obito's eye not bleeding because in the panel prior to his giant spiral trees technique, we see a close up of his MS as he's straining. there is no blood starting to drip out. in sasuke's case, the blood would have started to leak out the moment he strained that hard. then we see a big splash of blood over obito's eye that we've never seen on anyone before. it doesn't look like it came out of his eye


Quote:
obito has to touch his targets because the vortex (Kamui) that he creates is located at his sharingan. he hasn't been shown capable of aiming it anywhere. kakashi on the other hand doesn't have touch because the power of the left eye apparently allows him to aim the vortex elsewhere. the spiral isn't omitted when phasing because the spiral is only associated the vortex/kamui.
well another way to put it is that there isn't a need to show the spiraling vortex when obito uses kamui on himself since there is no distance to cover. it's just an instant transportation into the vortex. we only see the spiral when there is distance between the target and the vortex or in kakashi's learning phase when he had trouble aiming the vortex on deidara. now when kakashi uses it, there is no distance between the target and the vortex so it just pops into the other dimension, much like obito's body does.

the difference is similar to how you put it, that kakashi's kamui's vortex is outside his body and obito's is inside
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-17, 01:09   Link #119
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Chapter 606 Thread has been created. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-17, 01:58   Link #120
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but they all are the same thing. phasing is actually incorrect to say if you mean it like a 'no-clipping' technique. obito is actually transporting parts of his body to another dimension as he walks through a wall. every kamui move we've seen is just transporting something to another dimension, even body parts

no. we've seen a number of different applications for kage bunshin for instance, yet it's all still the same technique. no matter what's going on, kamui is the transportation of something into another dimension via the sharingan.

i dont think his eye is bleeding in that panel. he had a downpour of blood onto him and that is the splash that went through the whole in the spiral zetsu mask.

i still see it as all the same technique. i would like to know why obito always touches his targets, but it's all a spiraling vortex. when he's 'phasing' we just don't see the spiral. it's like kishi omitting the hand signs for every technique. it would get old and he doesn't want to constantly draw them. i think it's safe to assume that anytime kamui is used, there is a spiraling vortex that transports anything to another dimension. when tobi brought sasuke back to fight danzo from the other dimension, both sasuke and tobi spiraled out of the dimension, it wasn't just sasuke spiraling. obito just has a ridiculous grasp on the kamui technique and can transport his body piece by piece if needed.
My problem isn't that it's the same principle. The problem is that it's CONFUSING. When you say "You should use Kamui", do you mean you should absorb, transport, or phase?
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.