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Old 2012-10-16, 16:21   Link #1001
Lord of Fire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Do remember that the victim actually WAS being a threat because she was about to make a huge ass fire.
Only because people were pointing guns at her, when she was already stressed out due to having been raped. And when you're high from stress, you can't think rationally anymore.
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:37   Link #1002
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
That indicates they are used to the idea of violence, and the episode demonstrates it.
Which is, in itself, a huge advantage over those who aren't, all other things being equal.

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However, it does not indicate how well they can perform violence without using their dominator.
It doesn't matter. I'm not comparing them to Special Forces soldiers. I'm comparing them to random people who've never been in so much as a schoolyard fight. In fact, I'm comparing them to a traumatized woman.

Besides, think about it. They're the people sent after desperate psychos. They're the ones who've survived it, day after day for who knows how long. Sure, this time the bad guy was never much of a threat to them. They always got the drop on him. But they've got to worry about the times where that won't be the case.

So, to reiterate, it's natural to assume they're a lot more familiar with fighting than someone who's never been in a fight.

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The system is designed to read intent, so of course it would discourage the police from using their own judgment.
And that's where I think we've got a problem.

But again, my point was that the pro-PP neglect the points when it's convenient (or they'd shoot enforcers on sight), but hide behind them when it's time to shoot an innocent, traumatized rape victim.
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Old 2012-10-16, 17:28   Link #1003
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Which is, in itself, a huge advantage over those who aren't, all other things being equal.
Forgoing the natural adrenaline rush that comes with the fight-or-flight response in return for being acclimated to the idea of violence is a heavy disadvantage without the combat experience that sometimes accompany the acclimation.

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Besides, think about it. They're the people sent after desperate psychos. They're the ones who've survived it, day after day for who knows how long. Sure, this time the bad guy was never much of a threat to them. They always got the drop on him. But they've got to worry about the times where that won't be the case.
Based on Ginoza's explanation to Akane, the natural conclusion is that the enforcers are sent when drones are not available. First, we must have a suspect who has a high enough CC to warrant the use of dominators. Then, the suspect must be in an area where drones cannot be used. Akane appears to think it highly unusual for the suspect to refuse treatment. It must, therefore, appear to her that the enforcers are not often used at all. And then, when the enforcers are deployed, they are deployed with powerful weapons that can deal instant sedation or death. There is no apparent reason, beyond the opening scene, to believe they have above average combat skills other than ambush.

And, of course, this is still dealing with just capabilities. I reiterate that threat is based on both capabilities and intent.

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But again, my point was that the pro-PP neglect the points when it's convenient (or they'd shoot enforcers on sight), but hide behind them when it's time to shoot an innocent, traumatized rape victim.
Let us assume, for the moment, that being an enforcer does not require certain Sibyl judgments that classifies them differently than a person with an immediately high CC. Let us examine the readings in this episode:

below 60: the drunkard, not a valid target for enforcement
over 120: Masaoka's CC, enforce at will
over 160: the rape victim's CC, which appears to mandate sedation according to Masaoka

Nothing here is inconsistent with having multiple tiers of latent criminal. Your flaw is assuming that if a person is a valid target for enforcement, then he must be targeted for sedation. If anything, the episode shows the contrary by labeling the different cases as "enforce at will" and "target for enforcement." As we have no suspect below 120 that was a target for enforcement action, there is insufficient evidence to say that just because the rape victim is a must enforce target, then any latent criminal is a must enforcer target.
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Old 2012-10-16, 19:29   Link #1004
DXMichael
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I liked the first episode, straight into the action with a good idea of who the main characters are going to be and an interesting concept of what's happening. Unique equipment too

Hopefully this isn't an anime that has one good first episode but starts going downhill from there.
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Old 2012-10-16, 21:13   Link #1005
bigdeath
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I thought this was a good first episode. It got me interested in how exactly this system works. Perhaps its the detectives job to regulate not only her enforcers but also to interpret the judgments of the gun. We all noticed that the victim was calmed down by Akane enough to lower the gun's assessment from lethal to non-lethal.

Remember that inspector Ginoza simply said he expected a report about her actions. What he didn't do was berate her about going against the judgment her gun made. It may well be expected for inspectors to use their own morality on whether or not to carry out a lethal judgment or to try to make it non-lethal but talking to and calming the target.

After all, a computer system is not likely to discriminate between the circumstances that have lead to a target to having a high crime coefficient. It may be the role of the inspect to make a moral judgment though it certainly leaves open the possibility of inspectors viewing high crime coefficient people as subhuman and therefore it becomes unimportant how they are dealt with. Inspector Ginoza seemed to imply that was his view while explain the system to our rookie.

I'm interested in seeing what, if any, fall out Akane actions cause.


The episode was a successful first episode because just reading the preview on random curiosity left me uncertain if I'd be interested in this show. However, it set up a intriguing blade runner-esque setting and has raise a lot of philosophical questions about the legal system of this world. In short, it has done the job of hooking at least one new viewer.

Not to mention the tension and atmosphere I felt the whole episode had. I wasn't bored once. I didn't mind the speeches because I wanted to learn more about this world. And its ending left me wanting to find out what the aftermath of Akane actions would be. It short, perfect first episode that did it job.
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Last edited by bigdeath; 2012-10-16 at 21:25.
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Old 2012-10-16, 21:50   Link #1006
orion
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Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post

Remember that inspector Ginoza simply said he expected a report about her actions. What he didn't do was berate her about going against the judgment her gun made. It may well be expected for inspectors to use their own morality on whether or not to carry out a lethal judgment or to try to make it non-lethal but talking to and calming the target.
.
Of course, not. However, he did sound angry and he has to review the report first. The berating is in private. He can't undermine her leadership too much in public or the enforcers will walk all over her.
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Old 2012-10-16, 22:15   Link #1007
bigdeath
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
Of course, not. However, he did sound angry and he has to review the report first. The berating is in private. He can't undermine her leadership too much in public or the enforcers will walk all over her.
The enforcers can be shot at anytime. And Akane has shown she is willing to shoot them. Thats the control she has over them. I doubt whether the enforcers respect or not matters as much as the fear of being shot.
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Old 2012-10-16, 23:03   Link #1008
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Just saw the first ep. Okay I seriously donít like the system here. Itís severely flawed, especially in handling a crime victim. While itís true that directly tranquilize the violent victim is the most efficient method, the way she treated like a criminal just felt wrong. Also, what happen to police officerís skill in talking some sense and comforting a traumatic victim? Sure thereís a risk, but the risk is worth it considering the rape victim is un-armed before she ran to that pool of gasoline. I mean, come on, sheís already been raped and tortured, why canít the police show some kindness instead of just tazing her (or killing her at some point). Being tazed hurts, you know. Itís like rubbing salt to the wounds for the rape-victim lady.
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Old 2012-10-17, 00:22   Link #1009
orion
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Originally Posted by bigdeath View Post
The enforcers can be shot at anytime. And Akane has shown she is willing to shoot them. Thats the control she has over them. I doubt whether the enforcers respect or not matters as much as the fear of being shot.
They can also turn a blind eye and let her get killed. The Enforcers on her team also are looking out for her. Something is going to be said to her for their benefit. It's like a policeman and a police dog. The dog is actually a partner and not a pet.
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Old 2012-10-17, 01:00   Link #1010
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Forgoing the natural adrenaline rush that comes with the fight-or-flight response in return for being acclimated to the idea of violence is a heavy disadvantage without the combat experience that sometimes accompany the acclimation.
They still get adrenaline. The difference is, they know what to do with it instead of flailing around like idiots.

Quote:
Based on Ginoza's explanation to Akane, the natural conclusion is that the enforcers are sent when drones are not available.
Based on that same explanation, they're short-handed. Overworked. Even if, relative to the total population, the cases are few, the cops are even fewer.

Quote:
First, we must have a suspect who has a high enough CC to warrant the use of dominators. Then, the suspect must be in an area where drones cannot be used.
An impoverished, cramped area that makes ambushes more likely...

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And, of course, this is still dealing with just capabilities. I reiterate that threat is based on both capabilities and intent.
Then why point a gun at the woman?
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Old 2012-10-17, 02:01   Link #1011
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord of Fire View Post
Only because people were pointing guns at her, when she was already stressed out due to having been raped. And when you're high from stress, you can't think rationally anymore.
Why she was about to blow shit sky high is completely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that she was a threat, so the system was right, from a completely objective point of view.
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Old 2012-10-17, 02:05   Link #1012
jeroz
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question being, was she a threat before falling down the stairs into a pool of petrol though?

also I would love to know what did Shinya said to Akane before she shot him.
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Old 2012-10-17, 02:11   Link #1013
totoum
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
question being, was she a threat before falling down the stairs into a pool of petrol though?
Indeed,that's the thing,going back to what Graveyard Duck says:

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But regardless, a person's threat is defined by both capability and intent.
A high CC could be telling you that the intent is there,but that's meaningless if capability isn't there and before being in that pool of petrol she had no way of harming anyone,even if she would have wanted to.
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Old 2012-10-17, 04:34   Link #1014
Graveyard Duck
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They still get adrenaline. The difference is, they know what to do with it instead of flailing around like idiots.
Here is another demonstration of not considering quantitative differences--much like the unsupported assumption that there is a single category of nonlethal enforcement. The adrenaline rush from panicked fight or flight syndrome is known to produce much greater bursts of strength than the adrenaline from mere expectation of action.

Quote:
Based on that same explanation, they're short-handed. Overworked. Even if, relative to the total population, the cases are few, the cops are even fewer.
Ginoza's statement to Akane: "I can't treat you like a newbie, because we are short handed." Whatever the CID is short on, it causes them to have to immediately use a rookie police officer. Nothing in this statement includes the enforcers. It would be utterly bizarre for Ginoza to include the enforcers in the same category of "we" as the police, as he refers to the enforcers as less than human.

Quote:
An impoverished, cramped area that makes ambushes more likely...
Ginoza tells us why drones can't be used in this specific area: It's an abolition block, so there are no relay devices. Poverty and density are potential consequences of the conditions for not using drones, but they are not necessary consequences.

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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
A high CC could be telling you that the intent is there,but that's meaningless if capability isn't there and before being in that pool of petrol she had no way of harming anyone,even if she would have wanted to.
Masaoka had a reasonable suspicion that the victim would have a high CC, because he is familiar with how CC can be contagious. Pointing the dominator at her confirmed his suspicion. After he has confirmed that the victim has a great intent to commit some crime, it would be highly irresponsible of him to not take steps to restrain her in some fashion.
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Old 2012-10-17, 05:26   Link #1015
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Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post
Masaoka had a reasonable suspicion that the victim would have a high CC, because he is familiar with how CC can be contagious. Pointing the dominator at her confirmed his suspicion. After he has confirmed that the victim has a great intent to commit some crime, it would be highly irresponsible of him to not take steps to restrain her in some fashion.
Even though I do have a bit of problem...why do they dont use handcuff and have to go straight to paralyzer...it's still much better than being tazed...
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Old 2012-10-17, 05:41   Link #1016
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveyard Duck View Post

There is no question that Masaoka aggravated the victim's mental state by pointing the dominator at her.

There is equally no question that the situation would have stopped without reaching the lethal stage had anybody on the scene shot her immediately.

But neither is particularly important in determining whether the situation called for Masaoka to disable the victim.
Well actually it is....if the system in place were a normal one then Masaoka would likely not have had to neutralize the victim

The procedure called for Masaoka to scan and then take out the victim if necessary so if it were not in place they could have just taken damage-control measures or whatever cops do to victims rather than hostile acts that guarantee a shooting response is needed.

CC may be contagious but it's not a new concept and if present they officers can deal with that issue without a mind-reading gun...
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Old 2012-10-17, 08:44   Link #1017
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Interesting that no one here questions why a psychological trait (the crime coefficient) is regarded as being contagious, which is a physiological characteristic of viruses/bacteria.

Admittedly, we do use the word and words of similar meaning metaphorically ourselves (as in "laughter is contagious", or "Stay away! I'll catch your stupidity!"), but I find it interesting that criminality is now regarded as being 'contagious', apparently in the literal/medical sense.
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Old 2012-10-17, 08:57   Link #1018
Lenneth4
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Interesting that no one here questions why a psychological trait (the crime coefficient) is regarded as being contagious, which is a physiological characteristic of viruses/bacteria.

Admittedly, we do use the word and words of similar meaning metaphorically ourselves (as in "laughter is contagious", or "Stay away! I'll catch your stupidity!"), but I find it interesting that criminality is now regarded as being 'contagious', apparently in the literal/medical sense.
Maybe because some people turn into criminals after being victimized as well ?
So the thing we call "evil" can be a sort of contagious illness.
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:00   Link #1019
whitecloud
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Interesting that no one here questions why a psychological trait (the crime coefficient) is regarded as being contagious, which is a physiological characteristic of viruses/bacteria.

Admittedly, we do use the word and words of similar meaning metaphorically ourselves (as in "laughter is contagious", or "Stay away! I'll catch your stupidity!"), but I find it interesting that criminality is now regarded as being 'contagious', apparently in the literal/medical sense.
Most likely since the tendency of the person with high CC is aggresive/violent so when we get near them we naturally also stressed out as well which contribute to high CC.

thats why High CC is regarded as contagious... any other theory?
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:08   Link #1020
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Interesting that no one here questions why a psychological trait (the crime coefficient) is regarded as being contagious, which is a physiological characteristic of viruses/bacteria.

Admittedly, we do use the word and words of similar meaning metaphorically ourselves (as in "laughter is contagious", or "Stay away! I'll catch your stupidity!"), but I find it interesting that criminality is now regarded as being 'contagious', apparently in the literal/medical sense.
I think some people here are already aware of it (I know I do). It’s just, I think it’s some kind of “in-universe” thing (maybe like the Newtype-ness in Gundam which is born due to zero-gravity). So, I’m basically waiting for the following episodes to explain it. But yeah, it’s indeed strange how they seriously consider that psychological trait is contagious. That’s mainly the reason why the victim got treated like a criminal.
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