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Old 2012-10-16, 23:11   Link #61
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
It is acceptable for a man to take abuse from a woman.
However, a man cannot fight back against a woman to defend himself.

Hmm.
It depends on the context, does it not? If someone were actually in any real danger, I don't see why they wouldn't have the right to defend themselves. In any sort of combat situation, it doesn't matter the gender of your opponent -- not defending yourself could get you killed. But just because a guy gets a slap in the face after he gropes a girl's breasts doesn't mean that he was "in danger" and his proper action is to "fight back".

The whole "guy does something perverted, girl slaps/punches him in response to restore the status quo" thing has been a well-known comedy routine for years, and it's not intended to be portrayed as any sort of serious danger or threat (the male character is almost always perfectly fine the next scene, or only has comedic "wounds"). I realize some people think this joke isn't funny because it seems to be glorifying violence against men, but by the same token it's almost always following a scene that glorifies the objectification of women. Given that there are no real lasting consequences, who (in the story) gets the better end of the deal? If not for the slap/kick/punch/whatever, what should be the consequence in the story for the sexual harassment or whatever that preceded? Should he be arrested? Thrown in jail? Taken to court? The story basically needs a way to show that there are consequences for improper actions that, by the same token, still allow the actions to continue anyway in some limited/controlled capacity. So this too (or something very similar) is necessary to make the harem anime story work, and to prevent the protagonist from having his way with all the women in the story without consequence.

(And if you want the sort of story where the protagonist just does go around and have his way with all the women in the story, well, that would probably be porn. Most harem anime are trying more to be romantic comedies with a heavy dose of sexual fanservice.)
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Old 2012-10-17, 02:32   Link #62
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I'll just stick to the OP for this discussion:


Quote:
- plain, not ugly, just plain looking
If the main character was fabulous, you'll most likely have girls falling all over him (assuming he is not a jerk). This can easily lead to too many contenders with the MC having to pick and choose before things are reduced to a manageable level.


Quote:
- "slice of life" type guy. Leads a normal, boring life with no interesting activities
Most settings are in middle school or high school. You're not really going to have some interesting activities in terms of fiction unless the MC is some special talented person who goes on adventures, known in a speciality, or is generally wacky enough for people to notice. This can lead to either the problem of being too popular or being too great for most people to approach.


Quote:
- non-action guy, he won't put a fight unless it's the very last episode and he's also mediocre at best
Okay, given that this is a normal MC, how do you expect him to have fighting abilities, short of having learned some kind of martial arts or street fights all the time?


Quote:
- stupid, not the smart type, must rely on his partner or best friend
This is so so. Is relying on someone to get better grades that big an issue?


Quote:
- unpopular with normal girls, but popular with cutest girls, even though he barely does anything worthy towards them.
"Does anything worthy" is a bit subjective, so skipping that. However, think about this: Would you rather have an interest in an average normal person or someone with good characteristics? When you consider this, there is no big flaw to the MC being unpopular with normal girls. Now, why he might be popular with the cutest girls..... Well, most likely he did SOMETHING that attracted the attention of those cutest girls. Those may seem insignificant to the viewers, but might be important to the characters themselves.


Quote:
- inhumanly dense, even though girls around him clearly show affections toward him.
Device used to prolong the situations.


Quote:
- getting abused by the tsundere girls all the time while he can't do anything about it.
This is actually somewhat of a cultural thing. A "true" boy is not supposed to hit back when hit by a girl because most likely he had done something already wrong to be hit. Now, this idea might be a bit alien (particularly given our somewhat omniscient knowledge), but once one gets the idea that you're only supposed to be hit if you've done something wrong or the other side is a bully, then you might get the sense of why this is tolerated.


Quote:
- boring, dull personality, with no outstanding qualities aside of being a nice guy.
Isn't this a bit redundant? When you go through all the points before, how are you supposed to have someone with "outstanding" qualities?



Personally, I think Amagami answers most of the issues brought up. It has the typical harem MC, but shows how he gets close to the girls.
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Old 2012-10-17, 03:55   Link #63
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Why does most harem anime tend to have uninteresting male leads?

If the MC is a perfect guy... then a harem are for perfect guys only....

If the MC is imperfect.. then we got chances to have our own!!!
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Old 2012-10-17, 04:12   Link #64
Marcus H.
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Of course, relentlessflame, context counts. But I don't think everyone would consider context when their precious waifu gets abused by a male, even if said waifu deserves it.

Anyways, since it's out of topic, I'll silence myself now.
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Old 2012-10-17, 04:23   Link #65
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Somehow i felt that creator of this thread was just throwing tantrum about his general dislike in harem story. The kind of protagonist a harem stories has is just a matter of taste. Some prefer them pervert (DxD or Sora Oto), some like them kind without any other trait that stands out (most non-action harem comedy series), some like them badass (Campione, SAO, Accel).

@backbone. I'm not being sarcastic nor offensive towards you. It's fine if you prefer strong/cool type harem protagonist (just like me), but the way you point it out (pointing all the flaws in your first post) sounds kinda skewed in my opinion.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:51   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
We're talking about character of a character, not who has the bigger flashier cosmic penis.
Yeah, you meant personality, then? And LOL.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:22   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
It depends on the context, does it not? If someone were actually in any real danger, I don't see why they wouldn't have the right to defend themselves. In any sort of combat situation, it doesn't matter the gender of your opponent -- not defending yourself could get you killed. But just because a guy gets a slap in the face after he gropes a girl's breasts doesn't mean that he was "in danger" and his proper action is to "fight back".

The whole "guy does something perverted, girl slaps/punches him in response to restore the status quo" thing has been a well-known comedy routine for years, and it's not intended to be portrayed as any sort of serious danger or threat (the male character is almost always perfectly fine the next scene, or only has comedic "wounds"). I realize some people think this joke isn't funny because it seems to be glorifying violence against men, but by the same token it's almost always following a scene that glorifies the objectification of women. Given that there are no real lasting consequences, who (in the story) gets the better end of the deal? If not for the slap/kick/punch/whatever, what should be the consequence in the story for the sexual harassment or whatever that preceded? Should he be arrested? Thrown in jail? Taken to court? The story basically needs a way to show that there are consequences for improper actions that, by the same token, still allow the actions to continue anyway in some limited/controlled capacity. So this too (or something very similar) is necessary to make the harem anime story work, and to prevent the protagonist from having his way with all the women in the story without consequence.

(And if you want the sort of story where the protagonist just does go around and have his way with all the women in the story, well, that would probably be porn. Most harem anime are trying more to be romantic comedies with a heavy dose of sexual fanservice.)
While I get what you're saying, I'm not sure if this frames the issue properly.

Most harem anime male leads are not incorrigible lechs that will take every opportunity to "have their way with" women.

Most of the set-ups for tsundere abuse involves some sort of bizarre accident where the guy and the tsundere female somehow get tangled up in a compromising way, and/or the guy accidentally stumbles in on the tsundere female in a state of an undress.

But 9 times out of 10 it is, in fact, a genuine accident (i.e. it's not a clever lech pretending to stumble into the girl's washroom when he really was trying to sneak a peek ). In some of these cases, maybe you could say that the male lead is a horribly clumsy bungler who had it coming to him, but there's also a fair number of cases where it really is an obvious, understandable accident and the guy shouldn't be punched for it.


More than anything else, I think it's this slapstick comedy abuse that, if it's allowed to run for too long/too often, can make harem male leads look weak in the eyes of many viewers.

Indeed, I think that part of the aim with many modern wingmen is to have them be the buttmonkey recipient of slapstick comedy abuse so that your male lead can sort of be spared the indignity of it and come out looking a little more respectable because of it.


I'm with you in that I have no great desire to see a guy "hit back". On the other hand, when they start taking constant abuse from a particular character without ever bothering to defend themselves at all (Ben-To immediately comes to mind to me here), it really does start to look bad and frankly makes the guy look like a doormat for punishment (or a masochist ).


tl;dr If tsunderes are going to continue to be a prominent and frequently seen part of anime, I'd like them to be more Type B than Type A.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:39   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

tl;dr If tsunderes are going to continue to be a prominent and frequently seen part of anime, I'd like them to be more Type B than Type A.
Even I, who rather like tsundere, prefer the modern complex ones. The "smash to the stars" type and the pure linear tsun->dere can just fade into history as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 2012-10-17, 17:01   Link #69
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Finally an opportunity to use this screenshot that i saved, incase of people were going to argue about the tsun and dere ratio's

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Old 2012-10-17, 18:39   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
If the MC is a perfect guy... then a harem are for perfect guys only....

If the MC is imperfect.. then we got chances to have our own!!!
But harem series with completely useless protagonists whose only good quality is being a nice guy seems...

Strong and cool protagonists with many girls fall for them are very realistic since they can protect their harem with their awesomeness. But what about weak protagonists? What's so special about them that deserve them harem? Novice and lame protagonist are outdated formula since they basically had nothing worthy of themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insane View Post
Somehow i felt that creator of this thread was just throwing tantrum about his general dislike in harem story. The kind of protagonist a harem stories has is just a matter of taste. Some prefer them pervert (DxD or Sora Oto), some like them kind without any other trait that stands out (most non-action harem comedy series), some like them badass (Campione, SAO, Accel).

@backbone. I'm not being sarcastic nor offensive towards you. It's fine if you prefer strong/cool type harem protagonist (just like me), but the way you point it out (pointing all the flaws in your first post) sounds kinda skewed in my opinion.
Then, let me questioning you, as fellow harem fans.

Won't you get pissed seeing only girls are strong while the MC is a non-action guy who's really useless, beta-type person? (The reason why i dislike the kind of Sekirei and SoraOto)

Won't you get bored seeing indecisive, stupid male leads whose brain completely useless when it comes to reading mood and have tendency to screw up in crucial moments?

Won't you feel "skewed" if the MC is just a butt-monkey whose only function is for the sake of punching bag for the heroines? (Korezom and Love Hina play this trope in exaggerated and overly violent ways)

All in all, if the MC had nothing special about him, it feels very odd and messed up if he were to get a harem. For some reason i kinda agree with you, but there's no way those statements of yours indicating that you weren't being sarcastic nor offensive towards me.
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Old 2012-10-17, 18:47   Link #71
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
But harem series with completely useless protagonists whose only good quality is being a nice guy seems...

Strong and cool protagonists with many girls fall for them are very realistic since they can protect their harem with their awesomeness. But what about weak protagonists? What's so special about them that deserve them harem? Novice and lame protagonist are outdated formula since they basically had nothing worthy of themselves.



Then, let me questioning you, as fellow harem fans.

Won't you get pissed seeing only girls are strong while the MC is a non-action guy who's really useless, beta-type person? (The reason why i dislike the kind of Sekirei and SoraOto)

Won't you get bored seeing indecisive, stupid male leads whose brain completely useless when it comes to reading mood and have tendency to screw up in crucial moments?

Won't you feel "skewed" if the MC is just a butt-monkey whose only function is for the sake of punching bag for the heroines? (Korezom and Love Hina play this trope in exaggerated and overly violent ways)

All in all, if the MC had nothing special about him, it feels very odd and messed up if he were to get a harem. For some reason i kinda agree with you, but there's no way those statements of yours indicating that you weren't being sarcastic nor offensive towards me.
Well, you did somewhat answer your own question. The female love interests will be less interesting if they are not going to develop (their personalities, problems etc.), which is likely going to happen if they instantly fall in love with an "alpha male" protagonist without any effort.
The main selling point for harem series (and bishoujo games) are the female heroines.
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Old 2012-10-17, 18:49   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Strong and cool protagonists with many girls fall for them are very realistic since they can protect their harem with their awesomeness.
Again with that term, "realistic". Realism is overrated. We're dealing with animation, a medium that's all about stretching the limits of reality. As long as it falls within each person's personal suspension of disbelief, then what's the problem if it doesn't sync up to reality 100%?

Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Won't you get pissed seeing only girls are strong while the MC is a non-action guy who's really useless, beta-type person? (The reason why i dislike the kind of Sekirei and SoraOto)
He's also often the grounding voice of normalcy amidst all the high-concept fighting going on, and was deliberately designed as such. The primary appeal of these shows are the girls, and that's what I watch for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Won't you get bored seeing indecisive, stupid male leads whose brain completely useless when it comes to reading mood and have tendency to screw up in crucial moments?
I watch for comedy, so... not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Won't you feel "skewed" if the MC is just a butt-monkey whose only function is for the sake of punching bag for the heroines? (Korezom and Love Hina play this trope in exaggerated and overly violent ways)
Again, comedy. Someone has to take the fall for comedy to work, and the girls often become the butt of jokes in just as many ways, sometimes involving slapstick as well.
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Old 2012-10-17, 19:14   Link #73
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Backbone - Somebody might have already mentioned this in this thread, and I just didn't notice it, but you really should check out Sword Art Online.

Kirito is basically exactly the guy you've been looking for, dude.


By extension, maybe you have a point, Backbone, given Sword Art Online's popularity. Maybe there's a real hunger out there for a harem anime male lead that's genuinely cool and/or badass.
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Old 2012-10-17, 19:21   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Backbone - Somebody might have already mentioned this in this thread, and I just didn't notice it, but you really should check out Sword Art Online.

Kirito is basically exactly the guy you've been looking for, dude.


By extension, maybe you have a point, Backbone, given Sword Art Online's popularity. Maybe there's a real hunger out there for a harem anime male lead that's genuinely cool and/or badass.
doesn't have to be cool or badass, just a simple backbone and signs he actually has a pair would be good.

the wimpy mchl is why i don't watch harem shows these days.
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Old 2012-10-17, 19:24   Link #75
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Backbone - Somebody might have already mentioned this in this thread, and I just didn't notice it, but you really should check out Sword Art Online.

Kirito is basically exactly the guy you've been looking for, dude.


By extension, maybe you have a point, Backbone, given Sword Art Online's popularity. Maybe there's a real hunger out there for a harem anime male lead that's genuinely cool and/or badass.
Or maybe because it's an action show with a harem element rather than a harem show with an action element
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Old 2012-10-17, 20:19   Link #76
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Again with that term, "realistic". Realism is overrated. We're dealing with animation, a medium that's all about stretching the limits of reality. As long as it falls within each person's personal suspension of disbelief, then what's the problem if it doesn't sync
Look at this that way, WE are fcking sick and tired of the MC whose the sole defining trait is HE IS A NICE GUY, and unfortunately writers can't get through their brain that nice guy =/= doormat. We want to see a guy able to stand on its own, calling out on the abuse when it happens, telling the tsundere to quit the act, etc... We want a MC who have a goal on his own, that is not just " That girl". Yota of Video Girl Ai wanted to make a children book, Tomoya work up the motivation to take a job so he could move out and help his future family, even Keitaro wanted to go to Todai. We want more MC that are like Eikichi Onizuka, Tomoya Okazaki, or even Iskandar from Fate/Zero. The MC doesn't have to be realistic, the MC may be so larger-than-life that he becomes inspirational for the audience. Trying to understand what we want doesn't hurt, right?
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Old 2012-10-17, 20:28   Link #77
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Originally Posted by backbone View Post
But harem series with completely useless protagonists whose only good quality is being a nice guy seems...

Strong and cool protagonists with many girls fall for them are very realistic since they can protect their harem with their awesomeness. But what about weak protagonists? What's so special about them that deserve them harem? Novice and lame protagonist are outdated formula since they basically had nothing worthy of themselves.
That's the same as saying "Man, I don't know why harem series is so popular. There's no way that could happen in life" or "Man, I don't know why science fiction story is so popular. There's no way science works that way". People have their own preferences for fiction, and there's no global standard in which one is better. What doesn't work for you (and probably non-Japan culture) might actually is the one that strikes the chord of Japanese reader. If we're talking about realistic, than fantasy/supernatural series is the most ridiculous one since the explanation they use in those is usually...very unscientific. Doesn't hinder a lot of people(including me) from enjoying them though. Harem in general is unrealistic no matter how badass the protagonist is because all the value being coerced into us by society since we're born, unless it's a series where harem is normal just like To-Love-ru (since their law doesn't prohibit polygamy). And even then, the characters in them usually hardly share the boy willingly(they usually settle for Tenchi solution while still bickering) and shows jealousy toward the other girl(which means although the law allows it, the society value not so much). The kind of protagonist a series has is just a matter of taste just like I said and no one has the right to said their preference is better than the others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone View Post
Then, let me questioning you, as fellow harem fans.

Won't you get pissed seeing only girls are strong while the MC is a non-action guy who's really useless, beta-type person? (The reason why i dislike the kind of Sekirei and SoraOto)

Won't you get bored seeing indecisive, stupid male leads whose brain completely useless when it comes to reading mood and have tendency to screw up in crucial moments?

Won't you feel "skewed" if the MC is just a butt-monkey whose only function is for the sake of punching bag for the heroines? (Korezom and Love Hina play this trope in exaggerated and overly violent ways)

All in all, if the MC had nothing special about him, it feels very odd and messed up if he were to get a harem. For some reason i kinda agree with you, but there's no way those statements of yours indicating that you weren't being sarcastic nor offensive towards me.
Like i said before, it's just a matter of preference and everyone has their own likings, don't just blindly stating that your own ideal is the most correct one. We're already discussing thus far and you're still at it? I have no idea what's wrong with you. You said "but there's no way those statements of yours indicating that you weren't being sarcastic nor offensive towards me", but isn't it CLEAR that your statement is the more offensive instead? And since i already got pissed with that post of yours, may i suggest you to STOP point out such unnecessary rant anymore!? The more you point out your own ideals, the more it shows your own immaturity and self-centered mindset.

Anyway, i'm out of this thread. The topics grew too ridiculous and annoying for me.
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Old 2012-10-17, 20:39   Link #78
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Look at this that way, WE are fcking sick and tired of the MC whose the sole defining trait is HE IS A NICE GUY, and unfortunately writers can't get through their brain that nice guy =/= doormat. We want to see a guy able to stand on its own, calling out on the abuse when it happens, telling the tsundere to quit the act, etc... We want a MC who have a goal on his own, that is not just " That girl". Yota of Video Girl Ai wanted to make a children book, Tomoya work up the motivation to take a job so he could move out and help his future family, even Keitaro wanted to go to Todai. We want more MC that are like Eikichi Onizuka, Tomoya Okazaki, or even Iskandar from Fate/Zero. The MC doesn't have to be realistic, the MC may be so larger-than-life that he becomes inspirational for the audience. Trying to understand what we want doesn't hurt, right?
Actually the main characters from the last few harem series that i have seen, do have a goal. So i have no idea which ones you are talking about.

As for "we" want, we "the foreigners" are usually not included in the target audience for harem animes in japan. Some series with these socalled "uninteresting" MC's actually sold very well. Why would the producers change their formula?
Also most of the harem series these days originate from popular light novels. So these animes try to satisfy the japanese otaku's (and i doubt that they are "alpha males") and not "us"

Coincidently, your post gave me an opportunity to use another saved image from a recent eroge that i read.

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I don't mind being treated as a doormat in some cases.

As such, i am pretty sure there are more people like myself who are M to certain type of heroines (tsunderes, kuuderes, etc)

Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-17 at 20:51.
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Old 2012-10-17, 21:48   Link #79
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Quote:
Won't you get bored seeing indecisive, stupid male leads whose brain completely useless when it comes to reading mood and have tendency to screw up in crucial moments?
I don't normally get annoyed when a male MC is a clueless dolt who can't read the mood because
sometimes in real life, guys ARE that way!!


So when a girl character is giving him every single sign that says "these are my feelings for you, please notice me!" and his response is "Duh?" I feel this is so true to life that you can't get angry with it.

There was a guy I liked who wouldn't stop talking about the girl he was dating around me. He had no clue I liked him too. I was jealous. I gave every sign that I was jealous without coming out and saying the exact words. He still didn't get it!! I had to say it to his face!
BAKAAAAAAAA  (>口<)

Chiibi was feeling very much like a tsundere love interest stuck in a rom-com anime that day.....(=へ=)
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Old 2012-10-17, 22:08   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
I don't normally get annoyed when a male MC is a clueless dolt who can't read the mood because
sometimes in real life, guys ARE that way!!


So when a girl character is giving him every single sign that says "these are my feelings for you, please notice me!" and his response is "Duh?" I feel this is so true to life that you can't get angry with it.

There was a guy I liked who wouldn't stop talking about the girl he was dating around me. He had no clue I liked him too. I was jealous. I gave every sign that I was jealous without coming out and saying the exact words. He still didn't get it!! I had to say it to his face!
BAKAAAAAAAA  (>口<)

Chiibi was feeling very much like a tsundere love interest stuck in a rom-com anime that day.....(=へ=)
My current girlfriend once told her friend I was so clueless of her attention she had to hit me with a brick.

It was only slight less true, she wacked me with a physic textbook and demanded me stop talking about the blonde in our history class who would never give me the time of the day, and she, the 5'7" girl from China, have been making me dinner 4 times a week.
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