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Old 2012-10-14, 19:52   Link #1061
SeanQ
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken. So the swords also got their abilities stolen, but their souls remained in the weapon. Bankais are just a manifestation of the zanpakuto's full power, it's not the actual soul of the zanpakuto fighting right?
I believe their sword's soul were stolen or whatever...because when their bankai were stolen the captains were asking their swords to speak
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Old 2012-10-15, 00:22   Link #1062
Vena
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In the hands of a better writer, this ending to Yamamoto could have carried a lot more meaning/feeling. If you took the chapter out of its line-up and looked at in a void, it actually is rather well constructed. The problem is that in context its just abrupt and feels rather rushed, the strongest character in the series gets one shot. His struggling even in death in this chapter would have made a lot more sense if he'd struggled prior to said death but... that didn't happen. And the flashback while good, again in a void, needed more than what little was given to it. (Maybe will finally get to see Shunsui's bankai... and, this may just be me, but it really needs to be him who delivers the finishing blow on Bach. The old man is Shunsui's entire motivation in becoming who he is (and wasn't he said to have an an unique zanpakuto since there's two of them? Wouldn't surprise me if he and the other two-weapons captain weren't the special war potentials... or Unohana.) and Ichigo has as much connection this story as Chad and neither have any place killing Bach.)

Meh. I can't even figure out how stealing the old man's bankai of all things makes any sense. For the other captains I can sort of understand as they are usually weapons and take the form of weapons in some form or another (and usually only have one form and are not physically a part of the wielder or their history), but aside from the one sword form, his bankai is him. How would Bach use any of the other abilities aside from East/North (I don't even see how North is an aspect... all he does is cut, which he could do with East anyway)? The the other two (or at least his necromancy) are seemingly interlinked with the old man's own thousands of years of history, bloodshed, and regret. And it seems a little overly convenient that a man so intertwined with his weapon to the point where they form the weapon together, would so easily have his "other half" stolen.

The only thing that would really salvage this into something sensible would be if Bach trying to use the Bankai ends up completely backfiring in the form of Yamamoto's spirit usurping control of it and killing him. Otherwise its just... stupid? It takes Yama who knows how many thousands of years and countless lives to become that fire demon, and Bach will just pop it out like a Power Ranger badge and gain all its powers? The heck?
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Old 2012-10-15, 17:48   Link #1063
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken. So the swords also got their abilities stolen, but their souls remained in the weapon. Bankais are just a manifestation of the zanpakuto's full power, it's not the actual soul of the zanpakuto fighting right?
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Originally Posted by SeanQ View Post
I believe their sword's soul were stolen or whatever...because when their bankai were stolen the captains were asking their swords to speak
What SeanQ said. As far as we are lead to believe (and from my knowledge of the old Bleach days...it's been a while since I've gone back that far), the Zanpaktou is a manifestation of the soul of the user. All of its abilities and whatnot come from the user and constantly symbolize the user's power/potential. Knowing the name of the zanpaktou helps to increase the power of these abilities...

So, in the Zanpaktou rebellion arc, Muramasa was persuading each Zanpaktou to betray their owners based on the premise that each Zanpaktou felt their owner had a flaw that was holding them back. (Hitsugaya's sword didnt believe such a young/inexperienced person could be his master, Mastumoto's sword was so much like her they didn't get along, etc etc.)

And when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords. The Sternritter should either SEAL the swords of the users, or take all the powers that come wiht it...not just steal one form the blade can take...since that should be impossible...but w/e
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Old 2012-10-15, 21:32   Link #1064
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
And when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords. The Sternritter should either SEAL the swords of the users, or take all the powers that come wiht it...not just steal one form the blade can take...since that should be impossible...but w/e
As Nodt implied that shikai can still be used, because he told Byakuya that it was impossible to defeat his own bankai using just his shikai (granted, we don't actually see Bya use his shikai after that). Also it's always been said that the Vandereich steal the bankai ability exclusively. It seems like they definitely can't steal shikai, which is why after Renji attacks with shikai, As Nodt remarks he was waiting for bankai.

Sean Q did bring up a good point that the scene with Hitsugaya made it seem like his zanpakuto had totally lost its power and soul. So maybe when bankai is stolen, it does steal everything, and they only steal bankai because it's necessary to know the sword's full potential before taking its power. I guess the only other explanation is that the zanpakuto is stunned or unconscious right after its bankai is taken.
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Old 2012-10-15, 21:37   Link #1065
sayde
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Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
when the Zanpaktou spirits left the blade, the whole swords lost their abilities. They were just objects. So, theoretically, it should be impossible to STEAL one aspect of the spirit dwelling within the swords.
IIRC, the shinigami were still able to at least use shikai after regaining a bit of resolve. They didn't need to regain dominance over their respective zanpakuto spirits before they could start using some of their zanpakuto's abilities once more. However, they did need to regain control over the spirit before they could use bankai again. So in that sense, the situations are still somewhat similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Huh. I just thought they were ripping the abilities straight from the zanpakuto. It's like Ichigo getting his fullbring stolen by Ginjou, the power was just ripped out of his body, his soul wasn't taken.
I interpreted Rukia's comments a little differently during that arc. That's to say, while the entirety of Ichigo's soul wasn't taken, a portion of it probably was since these spiritual based abilities are all born from and are powered by the soul. So since she stated that what Ginjou stole was merely "the top layer" of Ichigo's power--The layer that had merged with his fullbring--it got me to start thinking of all this from a slightly different perspective. So thanks for bringing this up.

If Ichigo's "power" is tantamount to Ichigo's "soul" and a specific part of his abilities were attached to a specific layer of his soul, then perhaps these Quincy's have used a similar basis of knowledge to develop their bankai stealing method.

Consider this. We can at least all agree on the notion that a zanpakuto's abilities are born from and are connected to the soul of the shinigami. So with that said, what if we entertained the thought of all the key aspects that produce a shinigami's power being composed in layers within the soul? Would it really be so unbelievable within the context of this universe for a method to be developed which would allow for a specific layer of a soul to be extracted?
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:09   Link #1066
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I wish this arc got an anime adaptation, Maaaaan
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:13   Link #1067
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Originally Posted by Vena View Post
In the hands of a better writer, this ending to Yamamoto could have carried a lot more meaning/feeling. If you took the chapter out of its line-up and looked at in a void, it actually is rather well constructed. The problem is that in context its just abrupt and feels rather rushed, the strongest character in the series gets one shot. His struggling even in death in this chapter would have made a lot more sense if he'd struggled prior to said death but... that didn't happen. And the flashback while good, again in a void, needed more than what little was given to it. (Maybe will finally get to see Shunsui's bankai... and, this may just be me, but it really needs to be him who delivers the finishing blow on Bach. The old man is Shunsui's entire motivation in becoming who he is (and wasn't he said to have an an unique zanpakuto since there's two of them? Wouldn't surprise me if he and the other two-weapons captain weren't the special war potentials... or Unohana.) and Ichigo has as much connection this story as Chad and neither have any place killing Bach.)


The only thing that would really salvage this into something sensible would be if Bach trying to use the Bankai ends up completely backfiring in the form of Yamamoto's spirit usurping control of it and killing him. Otherwise its just... stupid? It takes Yama who knows how many thousands of years and countless lives to become that fire demon, and Bach will just pop it out like a Power Ranger badge and gain all its powers? The heck?
I'd much rather see Shunsui & Ukitake team up together with their respective bankai's and take down Juha Bach. It makes more sense imo. Even Yamamoto said the team work between the 2 of them is completely unrivaled by anyone that has ever come b4 them - and the first major battle we saw them in was against Yamamoto.

I'd rather see that, but instead will probably see Ichigo save the day - though i really cannot see how the hell his power alone can over come Quincy abilities AND Zanka No Tachi.


Quote:
How would Bach use any of the other abilities aside from East/North (I don't even see how North is an aspect... all he does is cut, which he could do with East anyway)?
With East, he touches them with his blade, and burns them out of existance.
North he swings his sword at something, and it reduces it to ashes - through the immense heat...
They aren't the same.
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Old 2012-10-16, 14:30   Link #1068
Kurohane
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I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
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Old 2012-10-16, 15:15   Link #1069
SeanQ
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.

Don't see any realism in any of that =p
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:29   Link #1070
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
As Nodt implied that shikai can still be used, because he told Byakuya that it was impossible to defeat his own bankai using just his shikai (granted, we don't actually see Bya use his shikai after that). Also it's always been said that the Vandereich steal the bankai ability exclusively. It seems like they definitely can't steal shikai, which is why after Renji attacks with shikai, As Nodt remarks he was waiting for bankai.

Sean Q did bring up a good point that the scene with Hitsugaya made it seem like his zanpakuto had totally lost its power and soul. So maybe when bankai is stolen, it does steal everything, and they only steal bankai because it's necessary to know the sword's full potential before taking its power. I guess the only other explanation is that the zanpakuto is stunned or unconscious right after its bankai is taken.
First part: Yeah I know all of that, I'm trying to say that that makes no sense as its being portrayed in the arc and should have been more like the zanpaktou rebellion arc, where they wouldn't just be taking one state of a sword, but instead, it's whole power...the spirit..everything.

Second Part: That scene with hitsugaya did screw up a lot in terms of how the power stealing is actually working, but then again, so did Yamamoto's terrible explanation on why his Bankai couldn't be stolen--which we found out he was wrong about not too long after.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayde View Post
IIRC, the shinigami were still able to at least use shikai after regaining a bit of resolve. They didn't need to regain dominance over their respective zanpakuto spirits before they could start using some of their zanpakuto's abilities once more. However, they did need to regain control over the spirit before they could use bankai again. So in that sense, the situations are still somewhat similar.

Yeah, they did. I was going to get to that but ran out of time at that moment. I took the regaining of their abilities (shikai) as a sign that they were beginning to udnerstand their swords and vice versa, so in a way, they were relearning what they already knew the first time to gain their powers back again. Like you said, it wasn't until they had some resolve that the powers came back...but then again, maybe I'm remembering the arc wrong

Anyways, the power to just snatc one state of the zanpaktou without completely taking the spirit of the sword, or the shikai with it, is just silly. Especially since it's the final stage of the sword...one would think you couldn't use it without taking the first stage but eh.

Or Hell, since the Quincy are master researchers and have lots of tecnology, as far as we know, they could have just been researching the captains thi whole time and founda way to mimic/copy the spirits and place said copies into other swords...so they'd have the bankais and whatnot of users--I'd buy that over what we got...but I digress.


Back on topic though, I wonder where that Clown-esque Stern Ritter is. The one that we saw his/her shoes as they were commanding Mayuri's group to kill one another. And I'm still irked that the Mohawk guy was clearly burned up by Yamamoto, but appears in the most recent chapter alive and still in pretty good shape... must be an error
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:35   Link #1071
Black-Cat-Sama
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
and after all of that...he still saved the day. I don't believe Ichigo will stop the threat right now, but it'd be pretty dumb if the final arc revolves around these villians we're seeing and the main character doesn't finish them//
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Old 2012-10-16, 16:52   Link #1072
sayde
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Originally Posted by MihawkXGP View Post
i really cannot see how the hell his power alone can over come Quincy abilities AND Zanka No Tachi.
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I don't know why everyone assumes Ichigo will be able to just "save the day the day". Kubo has established some realism. Even when Ichigo fought against Aizen in Karakura, he was only able to make one hit only when Aizen had his guard down by being caught by surprise by Yamamoto's kido. He was only able to stand on equal footing when he attained the Final Gatsuga Tensho that Aizen basically allowed by destroying the cleaner.
Let me try to put this into some perspective. When the hougyoku started to transform Aizen, his reiatsu could no longer be felt by anyone except for Ichigo. Later on in the arc, we found out that this only happens when a beings power becomes so great, that their power puts them in an entirely different dimension of strength. This was a revelation that Aizen was forced to come to after being completely dominated by Ichigo despite not feeling his reiatsu. Basically, Ichigo's post dangai strength placed him in an even higher dimension above what Aizen had become.

Currently, no one has yet to claim anything similar about Yamamoto's reiatsu or anyone else for that matter. When Yama-jii powered up, people knew it because they can feel it. What this means is that Yama-jii's power (for as great as it was) still doesn't surpass that first dimension of power that almost everyone in this series has been confined to thus far.

On the other hand, the potential strength of Ichigo's reiatsu does not just simply lie one dimension above everyone else, but two dimensions or more. So unless Kubo decides to somehow nerf the strength Ichigo had once obtained (perhaps through some kind of explanation or by completely ignoring the issue altogether), he should easily be able to destroy Juha Bach if he can regain the power from that final bankai form. Mugetsu doesn't seem neccessary.

Last edited by sayde; 2012-10-16 at 18:19.
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Old 2012-10-16, 17:47   Link #1073
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^well said. I hope kubo remembers these power dimensions as well. i'm actually surprised and a bit discouraged that yama-jii's bankai didn't put him at at least the second dimension where evolved aizen was at. it doesn't quite make sense and leads me to believe that kubo will not be consistent with that particularly cool aspect of reiatsu. it would have been sweet if yama-jii and juha bach could get to that level. as well as even shunsui, junshiro and unohana perhaps. even kisuke... but as cool as it would be, i doubt it will happen

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I wish this arc got an anime adaptation, Maaaaan
me too... although i'm sure it will at some point, which means a smaller, denser series, like FMA. which also means the animators can take more time and perhaps bust out more episodes of the hisagi/findor quality which would be well worth waiting for =)
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Old 2012-10-16, 18:11   Link #1074
sayde
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^well said. I hope kubo remembers these power dimensions as well. i'm actually surprised and a bit discouraged that yama-jii's bankai didn't put him at at least the second dimension where evolved aizen was at. it doesn't quite make sense and leads me to believe that kubo will not be consistent with that particularly cool aspect of reiatsu. it would have been sweet if yama-jii and juha bach could get to that level. as well as even shunsui, junshiro and unohana perhaps. even kisuke... but as cool as it would be, i doubt it will happen
I fully agree with this. My current prediction on the issue is that if the leader of the Royal Guard's spiritual energy isn't hinted to being on that next dimension of strength, I'll probably lose hope on Kubo remembering this issue (much less being consistent with it).
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Old 2012-10-16, 19:57   Link #1075
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I fully agree with this. My current prediction on the issue is that if the leader of the Royal Guard's spiritual energy isn't hinted to being on that next dimension of strength, I'll probably lose hope on Kubo remembering this issue (much less being consistent with it).
actually you just made me think of something that could save kubo in this matter lol... perhaps getting to that level of reiatsu is what qualifies captains to get promotions into the royal guard? meaning that all of zero squad would be on that level. then of course, the top shitritters would have to undergo some type of change to attain that level as well so they could compete. would be cool
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Old 2012-10-16, 23:32   Link #1076
sayde
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actually you just made me think of something that could save kubo in this matter lol... perhaps getting to that level of reiatsu is what qualifies captains to get promotions into the royal guard?
That would make a lot of sense for sure. It'll be interesting to see if you're correct. Of course, I'd have to wonder how the fans would react to finding out that there'd be a small group of shinigami stronger than the old man.

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then of course, the top shitritters would have to undergo some type of change to attain that level as well so they could compete. would be cool
I admit, Kubo's at least allowed the core mechanics behind Quincy techniques to lend themselves to such a possibility. I mean here we have a group of characters who's entire fighting style revolves around gathering and converting energy to power their techniques. So with the environment and even their opponents as potential sources of fuel, these guys have potential access to virtually infinite sources of energy and extreme power boosts. So I'm sure Kubo can come up with something to make the remaining Quincy's more formidable.
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Old 2012-10-17, 03:37   Link #1077
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Is Ichigo now capable of bruteforcing through dimensional borders?
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Old 2012-10-17, 03:59   Link #1078
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Old 2012-10-17, 04:04   Link #1079
bigdeal000
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Nothing really happened this chapter. They took an entire chapter introducing Ichigo
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Old 2012-10-17, 05:00   Link #1080
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I don't care about Ichigo coming back... well, although I'm curious about how can he escaped that shell....

but... I can't believe that Byakuya is actually died.... I'm so sad... can't believe this!
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