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Old 2012-10-17, 07:23   Link #1541
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flying ^ View Post
Romney: I want our legal system to work better. I want it to be streamlined. I want it to be clearer. I don't think you have to -- shouldn't have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. I also think that we should give visas to people -- green cards, rather, to people who graduate with skills that we need. People around the world with accredited degrees in science and math get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the U.S. of A. We should make sure our legal system works.
As long as they are not Muslim, gay, or European socialists, of course.
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Old 2012-10-17, 07:58   Link #1542
ganbaru
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Did not! Did too! Obama, Romney quote each other to score points
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89G0BQ20121017

From sidelines, debate moderator Crowley becomes part of story
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...89G09I20121017
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Old 2012-10-17, 08:09   Link #1543
Mr. DJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I didn't get that. Rather, I was upset by Romney telling women they need to go home and make dinner...
...wait what? o_o
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:23   Link #1544
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I didn't know Solace hated me. ;_;
No hate. I was just making a joke about the best time to push someone. Or the worst. Depends on the point of view and situation. Was not intended or meant in any way to be a slight against you personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I'll try my best to log in sometime later tomorrow, so hopefully by then Solace will be finished submitting his own input. Here I come, bed.
I'm mixed. The debate was much better than their first meeting, and there were some interesting gaffes and zingers, but frankly I felt far more connected as a viewer during the VP debate. I didn't feel like the audience was getting the interaction the format is supposed to be about, and instead of a debate it often felt more like a Q&A session.

Obama "won", but only because he actually seemed competent this time. Romney turned in a solid performance however and he has surprised me in these debates with his ability to speak - although his gaffes still bother me.

The more I reflect on it, the more I've come to believe that these debates have only highlighted the problem with the party system. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm getting tired of my "menu" being reduced to Pepsi and Coke. Even if these are the dominant parties, I really think the public needs more voices added to the mix. We desperately need more parties added to the debates, and more media attention needs to be given to other people on the ballot. It's not much of a democracy when your choices are so limited by money, media, and the two party system.
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:26   Link #1545
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
...wait what? o_o
He was talking about fixable schedules and a former female staffer who asked to be sent home in time to make dinner for her kids. It is a noble sentiment on both parts (an employee making time for their children, and an employer helping their employee), but, the context is the problem. The implication was that only women make food for their children, and that women needed to work less in order to literally go to the kitchen (this last part has even been used as a reason by employers to pay women less). It is a very 1970s mode of thought which focused on child rearing being the focus of female duties over their career, especially in a speech supposedly about equal pay in the workplace (which he never addressed beyond expressing his desire to have women in the workplace).

(In contrast, Obama emphasized the growing number of women becoming the "breadwinner" in the family, and that their lack of equal pay is a detriment to the entire family unit (whatever it may be).)

This, and another instance later (where Romney said families should always try to be a man and a woman), shows Romney's outdated thinking when it comes to equality in social reform.
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:35   Link #1546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Some of the "undecided" are probably of the mind that "nether option is valid. Give me something else".
That, or "It's none of your damned business who I want to vote for."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
He wasn't... I don't think anyone who watched the debate would take it that way. I think it's important to treat both candidates fairly and not just pin fault on your opponent every chance you get; I didn't blame Obama for the 'You didn't build it' or 'bump in the road' remarks, because in context there was nothing wrong with either one and I knew that he didn't deserve to be unfairly lashed out at.
I'd agree with this. The problem with the statement wasn't that he was equating women to paper, but that he answered a "How will you fix pay discrimination between genders" with "I hire women".

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
but independents DO NOT like gun control
I think independents are independent, and cannot be lumped together with a statement like this. Republicans, they're the ones who DO NOT like gun control.

Last edited by GDB; 2012-10-17 at 12:38.
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Old 2012-10-17, 09:46   Link #1547
willx
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As an outsider looking in, my problem with this election, and the U.S. system right now -- is that no matter wins, is there anyone that can fix the tax code or the health system?

I'm not talking about increasing/decreasing taxation or healthcare spend. I'm talking about the underlying legislation and bureaucracy. I'm talking about value for money spent or revenue for supposed existing tax laws. I can't imagine either candidate can get through the lobby or pass such massive legislature through both houses. The problems literally have been identified now.. but you still can't fix them.
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Old 2012-10-17, 12:09   Link #1548
Vexx
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There have been successful major tax code revisions before ... it required procedures like having the least obnoxious members of both parties squirreling away to produce a plan and then the entire congress has to vote on it with no modifications. I don't know if that's currently possible with the number of ideologues infesting Congress.

I'm coming to the opinion that the healthcare system is going to have to actually crash (death and destruction enough that every family "gets it") before there's enough consensus to overwhelm the lobbies that oppose solving the problem because they're getting rich with the status quo.
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Old 2012-10-17, 12:20   Link #1549
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm coming to the opinion that the healthcare system is going to have to actually crash (death and destruction enough that every family "gets it") before there's enough consensus to overwhelm the lobbies that oppose solving the problem because they're getting rich with the status quo.
Communism failed because those in charge were too greedy.

Democracy, as it seems, is instead going to fail when those in charge are too stupid.

When voters are too retarded to know they are electing those who are killing them, they are no different from the fools in Siberian gold mines who believed Comrade Stalin was innocent and didn't know they were suffering.
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Old 2012-10-17, 12:46   Link #1550
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Communism failed because those in charge were too greedy.

Democracy, as it seems, is instead going to fail when those in charge are too stupid.

When voters are too retarded to know they are electing those who are killing them, they are no different from the fools in Siberian gold mines who believed Comrade Stalin was innocent and didn't know they were suffering.
I think you're missing part of the point -- which is that people are also too dumb to realize they are killing themselves as well, not just their leaders are killing them .. Think about what people are thinking regarding healthcare and tax code reform and jobs and tarrifs .. It's not hard to understand really, but some people just don't seem to get it.

It's called Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"
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Old 2012-10-17, 12:59   Link #1551
ViolentLove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Communism failed because those in charge were too greedy.

Democracy, as it seems, is instead going to fail when those in charge are too stupid.
Soviet Communism failed because Russia was too big - it became difficult to control the entire territory with any efficiency.
Democracy doesn't "work" because the rulers control people's opinions i.e. what people vote for. Democracy is just another word for fascism.


People aren't really stupid. They're made stupid by mass media propaganda.

Think North Korea. The same thing is going on inside the US in their own style.
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Old 2012-10-17, 13:33   Link #1552
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
Soviet Communism failed because Russia was too big - it became difficult to control the entire territory with any efficiency.
Democracy doesn't "work" because the rulers control people's opinions i.e. what people vote for. Democracy is just another word for fascism.


People aren't really stupid. They're made stupid by mass media propaganda.

Think North Korea. The same thing is going on inside the US in their own style.
They're swimming in information that would clarify their "stupidity". Its available. They simply *choose* to watch HoneyBooBlech instead of the News Hour.
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Old 2012-10-17, 13:51   Link #1553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
Soviet Communism failed because Russia was too big - it became difficult to control the entire territory with any efficiency.
Democracy doesn't "work" because the rulers control people's opinions i.e. what people vote for. Democracy is just another word for fascism.


People aren't really stupid. They're made stupid by mass media propaganda.

Think North Korea. The same thing is going on inside the US in their own style.
when more people choose to vote in American Idol then in a presidential election. It is not the media fault, it is completely on the electorate.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:10   Link #1554
ViolentLove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
They're swimming in information that would clarify their "stupidity". Its available. They simply *choose* to watch HoneyBooBlech instead of the News Hour.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
when more people choose to vote in American Idol then in a presidential election. It is not the media fault, it is completely on the electorate.
It's the cultural upbringing.

You get raised in a religious environment, you have a high chance of being brainwashed from a young age. It's not Christian fundamentalist's fault that they burnt left handed women. They had no real choice because it's ingrained in their brain.

Good information is always available, but the conscious choice to see what good information is and where to find good information, is not always available to people.

Brainwash people to believe that adult life is about working, and it gets ingrained in their system. It takes an outside force to break people out of their systems.

North Korea - people don't know what's going on because they're brainwashed and everything's censored. In other words, if the people who control society wanted people to be smart, they would feed the people good information instead of propaganda. People are vulnerable to advertisement and propaganda, which is why commercials work and why people need to get the newest and most expensive iPhone and iPad even though they don't need it.

A stupid population is easy to control. Keep the people stupid = keep the people from rising up.

America. North Korea.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:14   Link #1555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
It's the cultural upbringing.

You get raised in a religious environment, you have a high chance of being brainwashed from a young age. It's not Christian fundamentalist's fault that they burnt left handed women. They had no real choice because it's ingrained in their brain.

Good information is always available, but the conscious choice to see what good information is and where to find good information, is not always available to people.

Brainwash people to believe that adult life is about working, and it gets ingrained in their system. It takes an outside force to break people out of their systems.

North Korea - people don't know what's going on because they're brainwashed and everything's censored. In other words, if the people who control society wanted people to be smart, they would feed the people good information, instead of propaganda.

A stupid population is easy to control. Keep the people stupid = keep the people from rising up.

America. North Korea.
it is not stupidity, it is ignorance.

Americans are much worst since they have a choice and they choose to be ignorant.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:18   Link #1556
ViolentLove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
it is not stupidity, it is ignorance.

Americans are much worst since they have a choice and they choose to be ignorant.
They're brainwashed to be ignorant. It's pure societal conditioning.

An ignorant population is easy to control.

Of course, it's just as easy to blame others for their ignorance, which is stupid. Ignorant people don't know they're ignorant, so how can you blame ignorant people for being ignorant that they're ignorant?

It takes being pointed out that they're ignorant that they can even have a chance of breaking out and seeing things from another perspective. It's not a choice. They're blindly stuck.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:22   Link #1557
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViolentLove View Post
They're brainwashed to be ignorant. It's pure societal conditioning.

An ignorant population is easy to control.

Of course, it's just as easy to blame others for their ignorance, which is stupid. Ignorant people don't know they're ignorant, so how can you blame ignorant people for being ignorant that they're ignorant?

It takes being pointed out that they're ignorant that they can even have a chance of breaking out and seeing things from another perspective. It's not a choice. They're blindly stuck.
He and much of the others discontent with the political discourse are not angry at people that are ignorant. They are making the case that in one instance: 1) North Koreans have no choice, they don't have access to libraries and the internet, but 2) In the U.S., you have widespread access to so much information on the internet, that a multi-trillion dollar industry has sprung up just to sort it.

The case has been made that those who are ignorant now are choosing to stay that way. As in, they're choosing to be close-minded, vs. actually educating themselves and participating in the process.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:38   Link #1558
ganbaru
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Mind The Binder
http://blog.thephoenix.com/BLOGS/tal...he-binder.aspx
Quote:
...
What actually happened was that in 2002 -- prior to the election, not even knowing yet whether it would be a Republican or Democratic administration -- a bipartisan group of women in Massachusetts formed MassGAP to address the problem of few women in senior leadership positions in state government. There were more than 40 organizations involved with the Massachusetts Women's Political Caucus (also bipartisan) as the lead sponsor.
They did the research and put together the binder full of women qualified for all the different cabinet positions, agency heads, and authorities and commissions. They presented this binder to Governor Romney when he was elected.
I have written about this before, in various contexts; tonight I've checked with several people directly involved in the MassGAP effort who confirm that this history as I've just presented it is correct -- and that Romney's claim tonight, that he asked for such a study, is false.
I will write more about this later, but for tonight let me just make a few quick additional points. First of all, according to MassGAP and MWPC, Romney did appoint 14 women out of his first 33 senior-level appointments, which is a reasonably impressive 42 percent. However, as I have reported before, those were almost all to head departments and agencies that he didn't care about -- and in some cases, that he quite specifically wanted to not really do anything. None of the senior positions Romney cared about -- budget, business development, etc. -- went to women.

Secondly, a UMass-Boston study found that the percentage of senior-level appointed positions held by women actually declined throughout the Romney administration, from 30.0% prior to his taking office, to 29.7% in July 2004, to 27.6% near the end of his term in November 2006. (It then began rapidly rising when Deval Patrick took office.)

Third, note that in Romney's story as he tells it, this man who had led and consulted for businesses for 25 years didn't know any qualified women, or know where to find any qualified women. So what does that say?
Is it me or it's making thing even worse for Romney's case ?
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:59   Link #1559
Vexx
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Just to add another topic on Romney, the XL Pipeline:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...eal-all-along/

(warning: browsing the foxnews website is like reading news from North Korea - it doesn't connect to any reality that lines up with data. articles like the link are far and few between. when one solitary source tells you its the only one telling the truth - that's an alarm sign of a cult)

The pipeline wouldn't actually have helped oil production in any significant way, only profit for a few pockets (mostly Canadian), what few jobs it meant were temporary, and it would wreck farms and property owners from Texas to Canada didn't figure in at all. In reality, a large percentage of the opposition was from 'small r' Republicans along the route who owned those farms and properties.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:04   Link #1560
Xellos-_^
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Just to add another topic on Romney, the XL Pipeline:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...eal-all-along/

The pipeline wouldn't actually have helped oil production in any significant way, only profit for a few pockets (mostly Canadian), what few jobs it meant were temporary, and it would wreck farms and property owners from Texas to Canada didn't figure in at all. In reality, a large percentage of the opposition was from 'small r' Republicans along the route who owned those farms and properties.
that is form Fox news...there is someone sane in fox news?
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