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Old 2012-10-17, 14:11   Link #41
Artful Dodger
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Can you name a few? Seriously, I'm having a hard time remembering any significant war in the past 100+ years based on emotions, and even the few I can recall from antiquity were romanticized after the fact (e.g. The Trogan War, First War of Scottish Independence, etc).
I don't think you'll read about many wars documented for being started for such reasons, but I'd believe emotions probably played a sizable part in the underlying reasons for them. England's fueds with France and Spain for example can be rooted in their historical rivalry and jealousy for one another.

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No, Tobi's reasoning and thought-process is stupid. He is yet another clear indicator that only idiots seem to get massive power in the Narutoverse (and as usual, the idiots always seem to fuck everything up).
Yes, what he is doing is crazy, but I think its still conceivable. He is obviously being completely irrational, and is apparently overwhelmed by his loss. Irrational people still find themselves in possession of power though (I'm sure we've all heard stories about people's managers/bosses), and as you say, end up fouling things up.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:19   Link #42
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I can understand him wanting a dream world where the girl that never loved him isn't dead, and does love him.

The fact that he doesn't even care why Kakashi killed Rin and hasn't looked for an explanation is iffy though.

Kishimoto came up with this way too late in the game, as a means of extending.

Really needs to end this whole thing once and for all. The more it's stretched, the less poignant it is.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:26   Link #43
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
She still wouldn't love him. Obito is going around the bend not only to bring her back (which she won't actually be brought back, he'll just "dream" she is), but also to brainwash her into loving him (or at least he is creating an artificial version of her that loves him).
I don't disagree, but that just means he picked up a fight against the entire world because Rin didn't love him and he isn't honest to himself about it.
I guess that's okay for me under the light of something like Madara manipulating the darkness inside of him (especially considering he probably continued to do so as Zetsu).
Guess we'll see.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:29   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I don't think you'll read about many wars documented for being started for such reasons, but I'd believe emotions probably played a sizable part in the underlying reasons for them. England's fueds with France and Spain for example can be rooted in their historical rivalry and jealousy for one another.
The 100 Year War was not started due to petty rivalries or simplistic emotional reasons. It was a dynastic disagreement started by one of the Edwards refusing to pay homage to the French King (one of the Philips), and then war was fought of specific territory that the English King refused to pay for (this is simplified).

There are conflicts between tribes started over minor disputes (of which emotional appeals would be key), but "world" wars are not begun over such simplistic events. Consequently, there is no thought-process involved in this war that actually makes sense (to me).

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Yes, what he is doing is crazy, but I think its still conceivable. He is obviously being completely irrational, and is apparently overwhelmed by his loss. Irrational people still find themselves in possession of power though (I'm sure we've all heard stories about people's managers/bosses), and as you say, end up fouling things up.
Wanting revenge is conceivable and potentially understandable, but the extent Obito has gone makes little sense to me.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:38   Link #45
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Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
He had already given it to Nagato, and there was no need to take it back. He had basically given Obito the rinnegan since he gave him Senju Dna and he was already Uchiha. He gave Nagato Uchiha Dna when he was already Senju. I don't really understand why Obito only took 1 of Nagato's rinnegans, and what happened to the other one. Madara was able to use both his Sharingan and Rinnegan when they showed him fighting with Naruto. He switched his Sharingans to Rinnegans. I guess this means maybe Obito never awakened his own Rinnegan but had to take Nagato's but only took One.
I figure he would only take 1 since Madara told him he may not activate his own rennegan and he would need his sharingan for kamui then in order to have the best of both worlds, he would have to keep one eye for sharingan and use the other for the rinnegan.

I would however like to see how the fourth mizukage is tied in since the glance we got from kisame's flash back show madara with dark hair (could be the shadow) yet here he is old and has white hair. Couldn't be that long.
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Old 2012-10-17, 14:40   Link #46
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^By making B.Zetsu part Madara, it is possible that the long-haired Tobi is, in fact, B/Zetsu.
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Old 2012-10-17, 15:17   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I don't think you'll read about many wars documented for being started for such reasons, but I'd believe emotions probably played a sizable part in the underlying reasons for them. England's fueds with France and Spain for example can be rooted in their historical rivalry and jealousy for one another.



Yes, what he is doing is crazy, but I think its still conceivable. He is obviously being completely irrational, and is apparently overwhelmed by his loss. Irrational people still find themselves in possession of power though (I'm sure we've all heard stories about people's managers/bosses), and as you say, end up fouling things up.
You're going to have trouble convincing the majority of this forum's crowd of such things given the demographic of the audience.

I'll assume most of the readers here are either late teens or early 20's in age. Which is not insulting or a bad thing at all, but teen adolescent puppy love experience is a stretch of the imagination.

Look at Helen of Troy- While it's a fusion of mythology and history(historians have generally accepted that there is a factual history behind Troy), the general consensus is that one military leader (Agamemnon=Madara) had a desire to start a war, and needed the aid of another (Menelaus=Obito). Upon the loss of his love (Helen=Rin) at the hands of a former ally (Paris/Troy=Kakashi/Konoha), the one desiring war (Agamemnon=Madara) is able to convince his desired ally(Menelaus=Obito) to follow him into war for his own gains. While the war ITSELF was originated from one man's greed/pride/hatred, a key involvement was due to love.

Are you going to criticize Homer for writing the Illiad and using love as a factor for war?

Another example is William Wallace in Braveheart. Is this fiction? Absolutely. But his involvement as a key leader in Scottish war for independence against Britain was largely due to his wife's death. Was the war about her death? No. But did it play a large role? Absolutely. That movie won multiple academy awards and nominations for both its plot, execution and cinematography. Are you going to criticize that too?

The truth is, love can drive some men to rob banks, murder people, commit suicide and do the most wicked things imaginable. Obito attempted to sacrifice his LIFE for his friend, had half his body destroyed by boulders, so he could entrust the girl he loves unconditionally to that same friend to protect her and spent months, possibly a year in confinement with only Uchiha Madara and some Hashirama clone as his only company. He probably thought about Rin every day he woke up and throughout the day as he trained and finally escapes confinement to save both his friend and the girl he loves, only to see his friend's HAND sticking out of her back from killing her. Is it THAT hard to believe that he would commit himself to some plan to hypnotize the entire world? I'm surprised he didn't want to just blow up the world, to be honest.

Bear in mind, he was THIRTEEN when he made those sacrifices. I could barely deal with my best friend dying when I was 13, let alone sacrificing myself and seeing my best friend murder the girl I loved.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:25   Link #48
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the general consensus is that one military leader (Agamemnon=Madara) had a desire to start a war, and needed the aid of another (Menelaus=Obito). Upon the loss of his love (Helen=Rin) at the hands of a former ally (Paris/Troy=Kakashi/Konoha), the one desiring war (Agamemnon=Madara) is able to convince his desired ally(Menelaus=Obito) to follow him into war for his own gains. While the war ITSELF was originated from one man's greed/pride/hatred, a key involvement was due to love.
Just gonna throw this here, but even if the whole Helen thing was entirely erased from history, the war would have still happened purely on the "justice of strong", a commonly used notion where the largest force is the one that dictates what is right, thus being able to claim whatever they can get.

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Bear in mind, he was THIRTEEN when he made those sacrifices. I could barely deal with my best friend dying when I was 13, let alone sacrificing myself and seeing my best friend murder the girl I loved.
Well, you weren't raised a soldier - from that perspective, the world of Naruto is actually a really dark place for ninjas, unlike what it was initially portrayed as.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:36   Link #49
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post

obito kept his MS since the kamui power is so useful there's no reason to give it up for another rinnegan when he could just use both. i assume he has the other one in storage like the rest of his backup sharingans
ya but what im saying is when Kabuto revived Madara, he had both a set of Rinnegans and a set of Sharingan/MS. He could use either one whenever he wanted.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:37   Link #50
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Just gonna throw this here, but even if the whole Helen thing was entirely erased from history, the war would have still happened purely on the "justice of strong", a commonly used notion where the largest force is the one that dictates what is right, thus being able to claim whatever they can get.


Well, you weren't raised a soldier - from that perspective, the world of Naruto is actually a really dark place for ninjas, unlike what it was initially portrayed as.
A) You're just reducing my evidence to its basis element. If that's the case, we could easily argue that it's still the same as Obito because him and Madara are basing their plan on the justice of them being stronger and dictating that their Eye of the Moon plan is 'right'. Isn't that correct? Please remember that 'free will' arguments are self-defeating and usually not useful in debate. I'm not disagreeing with you, merely saying that your truth only simplifies my truth.

B) A child's mind is a child's mind. While Naruto's world is dark, there is still an instilled sense of duty and moral obligations and an adolescent teen is still capable of sustaining permanent emotional scarring from a traumatic event such as witnessing a best friend kill the person they love. During the time of Troy, the mythology shows that soldiers began training in their early teens or even under the age of 10.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:48   Link #51
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Can you name a few? Seriously, I'm having a hard time remembering any significant war in the past 100+ years based on emotions, and even the few I can recall from antiquity were romanticized after the fact (e.g. The Trogan War, First War of Scottish Independence, etc).
I wasn't too precise with that statement, it's not world wars or other rational events. In more ancient times, often when an organization is ruled by one person who can actually start a war because of some emotions even if it's irrational.
One could say that Henry VIII started his religious warfare against the pope because of women. Then there's Cleopatra and Marcus Antonius. In history whenever there were leaders with absolute power, who also in ancient times were often quite young (similarily to Obito) there was a chance that they will cause (directly or indirectly) wars because of love or hate. But i guess many will say that it was just a pretense and not the real reason. I would not compare this ninja war to a large/world war in our world, it's more like a war between clans in ancient times, when there were young leaders with absolute power. I mean Obito's side consists of Obito who lost Rin, Nagato who lost Yahiko, Sasuke who lost his family, Sasori who lost his parents, there's no army and no country on that side, they definitely were not some rational actors like the organizations who made war " in the past 100+ years". And funny thing is not even the ninja alliance is since even their leaders believe in prophecies over rational thinking, as shown when Tsunade and the raikage believe that Naruto is the legendary savior so he can't fail and they let him join the war. So it's better to compare it to wars of ancient times, between two cities or clans.

One other thing is that i actully didn't mean literally love between man and woman, it can also be Sasuke's love of his parents and Itachi, for which he wants to destroy Konoha.


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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
Unfortunately, none of these are plot-holes either, and they can be explained so easily that the author probably wont waste time with even a short flashback, or bother explaining some of them at all for that matter and in fact, I hope he doesn't as the panels can be put to far better use.
Of course if the explanation is broken then it's better to not give any. And i can accept that since overall i like the manga, but as in other cases before when there was no explanation i'll just have a few forum posts about it not being a satisfactory thing. This problem with Obito's personality and character development actually also exists in the case of other Uchiha, the latest example being when Sasuke recently met Itachi and suddenly changes, a mindless killing machine who completely irrationally tried to kill the girl who was healing him and was the perfect servant now became calm and smart leader who wants to discover the secrets behind the events in the narutoverse

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To be honest, some of these really aren't even that relevant, as they are almost self-explanatory, like the details of how Madara expected Nagato to survive in a "warzone"(either zetsu clones watching over him and/or the eyes themselves being protection), or how Obito's personality turned into the masked man who fought Minato (this weeks chapter showcaseing Obito's new world paradigm should probably be sufficent for that one).
There's nothing more relevant than how Obito turned into the masked man, so i expect a whole explanation. Sure this chapter gave a good deal of explanation but i think there should be another chapter to connect this to the attack on konoha and Obito's behavior there. It's one thing to kill some random enemy ninja on the battlefield and something completely different to butcher ANBU of your own village, the 3rd hokage's wife, unleash the kyuubi in the middle of the night in a village where there were children sleeping. And finally to kill your own clan, probably including your parents, since Obito also had to have Uchiha parents. Based on this chapter how could we explain that? "Because Rin died now i need to kill my own parents!" And the funny thing is that a good missing link in personality change would be if he killed Kakashi (it would also explain Obito's MS activation), but he could not since Kakashi is alive
Nagato's eyes didn't help him to not starve to death. Was it in Madara's plan that in the last moment Konan offers him some food? Or maybe Madara's rinnegan can see the future, so he did see that Nagato will survive

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-10-17 at 17:31.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:49   Link #52
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Essenar, I think you have either quoted the wrong person or theres been a bit of a misunderstanding here. I'm not against the idea of Obito waging war against the world over Rin's death(though I'd agree it could've been written/presented better). I'm glad you posted what you did though, as I now have less to write.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
The 100 Year War was not started due to petty rivalries or simplistic emotional reasons. It was a dynastic disagreement started by one of the Edwards refusing to pay homage to the French King (one of the Philips), and then war was fought of specific territory that the English King refused to pay for (this is simplified).
...Who happened to be Edward III, documented to be impulsive and ill-tempered. You're free to draw your own conlusions of course, but I believe the true reasons for most wars are acutally rooted in emotions like greed, jealousy, pride, vengfulness, resentment, etc. and are documented for official reasons that probably seem impractical to most people, especially considering the many deaths involved.

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Wanting revenge is conceivable and potentially understandable, but the extent Obito has gone makes little sense to me.
Obito has gone to an extreme, yes. However, Obito is still a youth here, and therefore inclined to be much less practical/reasonable than a mature adult, and far more malleable. When we consider the pain and suffering from his horrible injuries, the loss of a loved one and compound these with Madara's ideals and philosophy I think the idea of this plot becomes at least plausible.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:49   Link #53
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A) You're just reducing my evidence to its basis element. If that's the case, we could easily argue that it's still the same as Obito because him and Madara are basing their plan on the justice of them being stronger and dictating that their Eye of the Moon plan is 'right'. Isn't that correct? Please remember that 'free will' arguments are self-defeating and usually not useful in debate. I'm not disagreeing with you, merely saying that your truth only simplifies my truth.
Indeed, no complaints here

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B) A child's mind is a child's mind. While Naruto's world is dark, there is still an instilled sense of duty and moral obligations and an adolescent teen is still capable of sustaining permanent emotional scarring from a traumatic event such as witnessing a best friend kill the person they love.
Imo Naruto's personal experience was far worse than any other character's; from chapter 1 he's already with no friends and no home...and things only get worse after the VotE. He didn't save Sasuke, he lost Jiraiya, half his village actually perished and he was still holding onto his beliefs. In contrast, Obito cracked immediately.
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Old 2012-10-17, 16:55   Link #54
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Old 2012-10-17, 17:07   Link #55
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as i got bashed for before, it's the same reason the trojan war started in the iliad. and helen wasn't even dead. losing someone you love can destroy a fragile mind like obito's. just saiyan...
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Look at Helen of Troy- While it's a fusion of mythology and history(historians have generally accepted that there is a factual history behind Troy), the general consensus is that one military leader (Agamemnon=Madara) had a desire to start a war, and needed the aid of another (Menelaus=Obito). Upon the loss of his love (Helen=Rin) at the hands of a former ally (Paris/Troy=Kakashi/Konoha), the one desiring war (Agamemnon=Madara) is able to convince his desired ally(Menelaus=Obito) to follow him into war for his own gains. While the war ITSELF was originated from one man's greed/pride/hatred, a key involvement was due to love.

Are you going to criticize Homer for writing the Illiad and using love as a factor for war?

Another example is William Wallace in Braveheart. Is this fiction? Absolutely. But his involvement as a key leader in Scottish war for independence against Britain was largely due to his wife's death. Was the war about her death? No. But did it play a large role? Absolutely. That movie won multiple academy awards and nominations for both its plot, execution and cinematography. Are you going to criticize that too?
uh, yes and no. love was just a factor but it wasn't the main reason. the trojan war was really started by the vanity of the gods. it started with hera, athena and aphrodite obsessing with their beauty and involving poor paris in this whole affair. helen, agamemnon and the others were collateral damage. there were so many factors involved in that insanity you can't simply narrow it down to love. helen didn't even truly love paris, that was aphrodite's doing.

as for william wallace, his wife's death was said to be the catalyst to his rebellion, but was just part of a larger whole. his people were being terrorized, oppressed and forced to submission. his wife's death was the last straw. the root cause of that war was really the fact that the scottish people refused to be conquered.
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Old 2012-10-17, 18:13   Link #56
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I love reading this forum but when i come to a Naruto manga forum and the first thing i read is Mel gibson in Braveheart quoted a coupe times theres a problem! I'm sure if Mel Gibson was writing Naruto is would be great!!!
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Old 2012-10-17, 20:44   Link #57
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Are you going to criticize Homer for writing the Illiad and using love as a factor for war?
No but I'm going to critize you for completely missing the point of the Illiad.
As ronin myael said -and even he overstated it I think- love was no important factor at all in this story but for the love of Achille for Patroclus and that wasn't the kind of love you talk about. The Illiad is all about fate, vanity and honor from men and gods.
But more importantly the point isn"t that you can't use love in fiction, that's stupid. Countless works of fiction have done that successfully realistically or not.
No, the problem is that in this story it is very badly written even taking into account the character's usual oversensitivity.
Although I maintain that brain damage does explain almost everything.

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Is it THAT hard to believe that he would commit himself to some plan to hypnotize the entire world? I'm surprised he didn't want to just blow up the world, to be honest.
Yes it is, and if you truly believe that the death of your 13 years old unrequited crush would put you on a path to murder tens of thousand strangers, genocide your kin and kill your friends if it was within your power then you might want to think about consulting a professional. This is not normal.
Obito's personality collapse makes Sasuke look sane in comparison and that's saying something.
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Old 2012-10-17, 21:27   Link #58
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obito just wanted rin back, he clearly doesnt care why she was killed, just wants her back.

he even said he didnt care if kakashi lived or died at that moment because he would bring him back with the eye moon plan. so he still feels like while kakashi killed his love, he forgave him enough to allow him to live peacefully in the fake world.
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Old 2012-10-17, 21:52   Link #59
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Indeed, no complaints here


Imo Naruto's personal experience was far worse than any other character's; from chapter 1 he's already with no friends and no home...and things only get worse after the VotE. He didn't save Sasuke, he lost Jiraiya, half his village actually perished and he was still holding onto his beliefs. In contrast, Obito cracked immediately.
That's because Naruto has greater emotional maturity than most of the villains in this series.
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Old 2012-10-17, 21:58   Link #60
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Obito... learned how to touch her body


Seriously. Obito, you're sick and twisted. Not only because of your obssession for Rin, but also for the fact that you refuse to move on about Rin's death.
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