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Old 2012-10-17, 09:20   Link #141
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
VRMMO may be a future thing, but MMO's and before that text based MUD's are not. The later are more similar then one may think as the 3D version was greatly inspired by the earlier text based variants. There is no reason to think that VRMMO's coding would be radically different then the non VR versions that came before.
This is largely irrelevant to the topic being discussed, there's no telling how and what kind of programming languages/technique would be used for a FullDive VR environment, as such things have no real world analogues to make meaningful guesses on. You might as well be arguing how a fusion plasma rifle would function based on current projectile weapons.

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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
Copying objects code, editing code in objects, creating/cloning objects, destroying objects and moving code are all basic access stuff that any GM would be able to do. Some GM in training may not be allowed to create an object with code they have edited without a suppervisor checking it out. But making a copy of some excisting code would be alowed to anyone with the absolute lowest access as that is the basis for learning how things works.
No, just... no.

A GM have access to gm tools to check their databases and logs to investigate claims, and while they can certainly spawn/create items and whatnot using said tools, those are existing items in game - no GM can create a brand new item that never existed in the game before, complete with its own art assets, out of nowhere. GM are low level customer service employees, they are NOT game developers, they don't get to put their little hands all over the code and create/modify things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znail View Post
The idea of a console in the game is less strange then it seems as from my own experience in both MUD's and MMO's so do a GM rarely have any powers just from his account, but rather so is it some object he is given that gives him access to commands that can affect the code and objects in the game. And objects in a 3d game will have 3d icons, similar to what happens if you drop a file on the desktop of windows. Thus a 3d object that holds GM powers are not such a strange thing.
This I would have to defer to someone who has actually worked as a GM for an MMO, but while low level GM tool may be something that's built-in to a special GM client, I would imagine the majority of the GM work are done outside the game client via specific programs with access to the game server. The idea that a GM or game dev would have log in to the game and use a in-game object to access their tool (or ever feel that such a thing would be necessary) is simply preposterous.

I mean, just think, you make a GM call saying your character is stuck at so and so, and the GM responds "sorry dude, lemme fly over to the crystal tower first and get to the hidden room, my gm access panel is there"
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Old 2012-10-17, 10:23   Link #142
ronelm2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
No, just... no.

A GM have access to gm tools to check their databases and logs to investigate claims, and while they can certainly spawn/create items and whatnot using said tools, those are existing items in game - no GM can create a brand new item that never existed in the game before, complete with its own art assets, out of nowhere. GM are low level customer service employees, they are NOT game developers, they don't get to put their little hands all over the code and create/modify things.

This I would have to defer to someone who has actually worked as a GM for an MMO, but while low level GM tool may be something that's built-in to a special GM client, I would imagine the majority of the GM work are done outside the game client via specific programs with access to the game server. The idea that a GM or game dev would have log in to the game and use a in-game object to access their tool (or ever feel that such a thing would be necessary) is simply preposterous.

I mean, just think, you make a GM call saying your character is stuck at so and so, and the GM responds "sorry dude, lemme fly over to the crystal tower first and get to the hidden room, my gm access panel is there"
You missed a couple of points: number 1, an item that Kirito did is not just some petty SAO item from the developer's game for the game, it's something like an item that's local to one's NervGear but can be displayed / tied to SAO. In other words, a dummy item -- an environmental item.

Second, the one Yui accessed was an EMERGENCY GM Access Panel, which means that it's for EMERGENCY purposes only, like when suddenly your GM Panel Options starts bugging, etc. Remember that the ONLY way we know to actually monitor / develop the game seems to be actually being there. Basically, saying that game objects aren't supposed to be created in SAO is like saying Windows 8 applications aren't supposed to be developed in Windows 8 (remember guys, they're proprietary and use only one software to build apps... and it ONLY utilizes Windows 8 for testing purposes duh.) Of course it's possible to create the game out-console, but isn't it more viable to do it in-console?

...oh and that idea of a GM or game dev would have log in to the game and use a in-game object to access their tool (or ever feel that such a thing would be necessary) is simply preposterous...? It's in the Eclipse MMO Engine (with a temporary GM/Mod/Developer item)... it's in the xtremeWorlds Engine (well not really but everything is done in-game -- as in the generic game client)... it's in many many more Engines actually...
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Old 2012-10-17, 11:14   Link #143
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
You missed a couple of points: number 1, an item that Kirito did is not just some petty SAO item from the developer's game for the game, it's something like an item that's local to one's NervGear but can be displayed / tied to SAO. In other words, a dummy item -- an environmental item.
Care to back up this claim? last time I checked there was zero explanation, anime or novel, as to the specifics to how Kirito was able to extract Yui and download it to his NervGear, and created that little pendant from of it. All Kawahara have said is that he did it via the panel, but not how.


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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Second, the one Yui accessed was an EMERGENCY GM Access Panel, which means that it's for EMERGENCY purposes only, like when suddenly your GM Panel Options starts bugging
the sensible standard operating procedure would be to restart your GM tool software, not flying to some hidden dungeon in game to access an emergency panel. To make that something required would be the most monumental failure of programming design ever.

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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Remember that the ONLY way we know to actually monitor / develop the game seems to be actually being there. Basically, saying that game objects aren't supposed to be created in SAO is like saying Windows 8 applications aren't supposed to be developed in Windows 8 (remember guys, they're proprietary and use only one software to build apps... and it ONLY utilizes Windows 8 for testing purposes duh.) Of course it's possible to create the game out-console, but isn't it more viable to do it in-console?
...how much knowledge do you actually have with programming and design? The idea that the only way to monitor and develop a MMO game is to be logged into said game is so far out there I don't even know where to start. Naturally you can monitor some things while in-game, but to suggest that game devs have no way to monitor the game from outside the game client is utterly ridiculous.

Moreover, game clients are just that, clients that access an application (the game) that is running on the game server, they are NOT software development programs. Your windows 8 analogy is off the mark, as win8 apps only need to be developed to WORK in win8, they aren't required to be developed IN win8. What you're suggesting is akin to creating a brand new level in Quake, complete with new artwork and 3d models, by entering programming codes in the game's command console.

Good luck with that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
...oh and that idea of a GM or game dev would have log in to the game and use a in-game object to access their tool (or ever feel that such a thing would be necessary) is simply preposterous...? It's in the Eclipse MMO Engine (with a temporary GM/Mod/Developer item)... it's in the xtremeWorlds Engine (well not really but everything is done in-game -- as in the generic game client)... it's in many many more Engines actually...
both of those are free 2d MMORPG maker that is aimed at amateurs making homebrew games, they're not even remotely in the same zip code as actual tools used to develop commercial MMOs.

Show me an actual commercial MMO that requires their GM to log into the game and go to a specific in-game location to use their tool, else I have a bridge to sell you too.
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Old 2012-10-17, 19:07   Link #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Your windows 8 analogy is off the mark, as win8 apps only need to be developed to WORK in win8, they aren't required to be developed IN win8. What you're suggesting is akin to creating a brand new level in Quake, complete with new artwork and 3d models, by entering programming codes in the game's command console.
On the contrary, you can only create AND debug Windows 8 apps on Windows 8 running a Visual Studio 2012. Unless there's another application you know...?

Anyway,

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Moreover, game clients are just that, clients that access an application (the game) that is running on the game server, they are NOT software development programs.
Like I said, sometimes "software development" tools can be built-in the game itself. It doesn't have to be that the client is ONLY the game client. In fact, on a VR such as this, it's only PROPER that "game development" tools should be built in the client, since it allows to debug easier...set the parameters and test easier.

...but that's not the point I'm trying to get across...
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
What you're suggesting is akin to creating a brand new level in Quake, complete with new artwork and 3d models, by entering programming codes in the game's command console.
Unless you can prove that it CANNOT exist, then it's safe to say that *that* is possible. Remember that before the game, the framework has to be worked out. It could as well be that this *framework* was developed, utilizing 3D copypasta technology that will allow you to create *any asset* so that you can start building *your world* inside *your game*. I personally like this method, since I'm a lazy programmer who does not want to do everything off-console, since it's usually full of inconsistencies. And it doesn't have to be *programming code* either, it could be a <<drawing pen>> in-game that does the drawing as well.

And as a programmer, I think you're seriously undermining the abilities of so-called "programming code".... here's a clue: Objective-C and C#/MonoTouch drawing code.

In other words, SAO is a Black Box. It shouldn't go as weird... well even the developer was weird...

...owait, what was the *original topic*?
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Old 2012-10-17, 19:33   Link #145
kyp275
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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
On the contrary, you can only create AND debug Windows 8 apps on Windows 8 running a Visual Studio 2012. Unless there's another application you know...?
Ok, I'm assuming you're referring to those apps that are sold in windows store, on which I don't know much about. What I'm talking about are apps as in applications, as in all programs.

I highly doubt the next photoshop or call of duty is going to be made by visual studio.


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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Like I said, sometimes "software development" tools can be built-in the game itself. It doesn't have to be that the client is ONLY the game client. In fact, on a VR such as this, it's only PROPER that "game development" tools should be built in the client, since it allows to debug easier...set the parameters and test easier.
of course, but those are developmental builts, or in the case of MMOs test server builts (aka the Singularity/Duality test server for Eve Online) they aren't part of the final shipped product, especially when it come to commercial products.

When you buy a copy of Crysis, it doesn't come with CryEngine.

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Originally Posted by ronelm2000 View Post
Unless you can prove that it CANNOT exist, then it's safe to say that *that* is possible. Remember that before the game, the framework has to be worked out. It could as well be that this *framework* was developed, utilizing 3D copypasta technology that will allow you to create *any asset* so that you can start building *your world* inside *your game*. I personally like this method, since I'm a lazy programmer who does not want to do everything off-console, since it's usually full of inconsistencies. And it doesn't have to be *programming code* either, it could be a <<drawing pen>> in-game that does the drawing as well.
You're continuing to miss the point. There is also no proof that SAO wasn't actually created by magic alien ponies, you can see where this line of argument will get you.

The point here is, you can argue for what's theoretically possible, but it's important not to lose sight of what is actually practical. SAO is a commercial MMO, it's not some open source homebrew game. With commercial products comes certain design requirements and philosophies that needs to be followed.

Can Argus have created an admin panel in game allowing GM and developer level access to the game? sure

Does it make any sense for them to do so, or has any other developers of modern MMO done so? no way. It serves no benefit whatsoever, while only creates unnecessary liabilities. The only reason it's in SAO was to act as a plot device for the Yui side story.


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...owait, what was the *original topic*?
something about something
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Old 2012-10-17, 20:40   Link #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275
Does it make any sense for them to do so, or has any other developers of modern MMO done so? no way. It serves no benefit whatsoever, while only creates unnecessary liabilities. The only reason it's in SAO was to act as a plot device for the Yui side story.
Well, the only sense behind this, would be that it is maybe easier than using a non-internal GM programm. With easier I mean that it would save some time and you wouldn't have to logout of the game.
While with that I can at least have a (seriously quite lowbob) reason, the whole dungeon and position of the console is purely plot device. Let's be honest: Who the hell would fight his way through an entire dungeon (which costs at least 30 min of time) instead of simply logging out and using a normal GM prog for whatever bug/glitch/exploit he has found. Even in an emergency that is quite unfitting xD and there are much better places even I who doesn't have any real programming skills can think of. For example sth like a Floor 0 of Aincrad in which you could only get with a special teleport crystal (which ofc doesn't expire after usage) and on which the console is placed. Firstly this saves much more time, secondly it is "saver" as it is not part of the normal game.
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Old 2012-10-17, 22:44   Link #147
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Show me an actual commercial MMO that requires their GM to log into the game and go to a specific in-game location to use their tool, else I have a bridge to sell you too.
As mentioned, the console was an emergency use console, but if you want me to list some MMO's that have GM's log in and do fixes to the game from inside so can I mention EQ and WoW as somewhat comercial successes.

What you seem to be missing is that to design new content for a MMO so do you need some way to view the actual results from the code you make. Now you seem to think that the developers would make some unique app specifically made for that. But there is already a program that does exactly what you want, the actual game. If you had a specialised app then it's quite possible that bugs in the game wont show up in it at all anyway. But all you need is some extra GM commands to manipulate the code of the game and some means to move around. GM's will generally have powers like invis, invulnerability, flight, teleport of different types etc.

Now most coding will be done and tested in a test copy of the game, without any players around. But if a player notices a bug then a GM can log in, go to that player and talk to him about it. This bit is less common nowdays as any contact with players is usually handled by a PR department rather then actual GM's.
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Old 2012-10-17, 23:00   Link #148
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In Warcraft anyway, the developers are way more likely to play their games anonymously than to log in as a GM. As Kirito said, it's no fun watching someone else play an RPG. Which is why GMs are low level grunts.
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Old 2012-10-18, 01:01   Link #149
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The way I see the emergency console thing, is that it isn't for standard GMs, but rather for admins and coders. Rather than simply a means to manipulate the game world, it's a full up remote access terminal for the server itself as well. I can think of a few reasons why the might want or need a possible means of accessing the server while still logged in.

That kind of access isn't something you'd want to build into the accounts either. An error setting up your new GM's privileges could give them full access to the server, or a hacker that managed to figure out how to give their character elevated privileges would get access. Better to have it in a fixed location and only able to be activated by the appropriate accounts.
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Old 2012-10-18, 03:23   Link #150
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There is one very important detail which is different in a VRMMO game compared to a MMO game. In a MMO game you can always walk away from the game whenever you want. In a VRMMO the only way to quit the game is to log out.

If the log out function and GM abilities build in the menu don't work it would be logical to have a ingame console as a last resort.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2012-10-18 at 03:49.
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Old 2012-10-18, 06:39   Link #151
Esebian
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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
There is one very important detail which is different in a VRMMO game compared to a MMO game. In a MMO game you can always walk away from the game whenever you want. In a VRMMO the only way to quit the game is to log out.

If the log out function and GM abilities build in the menu don't work it would be logical to have a ingame console as a last resort.
But even if the Log out wouldn't work, in a normal case the people outside of the game would realize this after some minutes, also normally u should be able to at least send an E-Mail to the support from inside the game, I think if you make a game where you can literally "dive" into this should be clear. The only reason why this couldn't happen was because of Kayabe...

because let's be honest: all support member + gms + developers inside the game at the same time, while the logout button doesn't function...that's less possible than winning the jackpot in the lottery.
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Old 2012-10-18, 08:24   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
As mentioned, the console was an emergency use console, but if you want me to list some MMO's that have GM's log in and do fixes to the game from inside so can I mention EQ and WoW as somewhat comercial successes.
The red herrings are starting to get annoying. OF COURSE the GMs would be in the game when they fix stuff for players, how the hell would they interact with the players otherwise? email?

However, what GMs can do are extremely limited, not to mention they don't need to go to a specific place to access their tools. They also CANNOT cut away a portion of the game's code/subroutine, it's akin to a WoW GM logging in and taking out Ironforge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znail View Post
What you seem to be missing is that to design new content for a MMO so do you need some way to view the actual results from the code you make. Now you seem to think that the developers would make some unique app specifically made for that. But there is already a program that does exactly what you want, the actual game.
It's called an INTERNAL TEST BUILT. Are you seriously suggesting that MMO devs pushes hotfix and patches UNTESTED onto the live server!?

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Originally Posted by Znail View Post
But all you need is some extra GM commands to manipulate the code of the game and some means to move around. GM's will generally have powers like invis, invulnerability, flight, teleport of different types etc.
GMs DO NOT manipulate the code of the game. The mere idea of that would terrorize the developers. GMs have available to them a VERY LIMITED set of preset roles and tools that allows them to perform specific functions related to customer service.

They have zero ability to actually change the game's codes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Znail View Post
But if a player notices a bug then a GM can log in, go to that player and talk to him about it. This bit is less common nowdays as any contact with players is usually handled by a PR department rather then actual GM's.
...GMs are always logged in while they're on the job, nor do they need to move their avatar to the player to "talk" to them, there are these things called messages and chat channels where GMs can communicate with players with concerns, and bugs are sent as bug reports to the QA team, GMs don't deal with bugs. I've more or less been a continual MMO player for about 10 years now, I've yet to have a GM respond to my calls by actually come to me in person with their avatar. It is inefficient, and in the vast majority of cases completely unnecessary.

You have a seriously distorted view of what GMs in MMOs are. Let me try again, they are NOT game developers, they are LOW LEVEL CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVES, they are the call center workers of MMOs. Saying that GMs can change the code of the game is like saying the guy working in a Dell call center in India can change the technical spec of Dell's upcoming products.

Also, PR department handle promotions and media relations, they don't handle day-to-day customers services, you've got it all mixed up all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Krono View Post
The way I see the emergency console thing, is that it isn't for standard GMs, but rather for admins and coders. Rather than simply a means to manipulate the game world, it's a full up remote access terminal for the server itself as well. I can think of a few reasons why the might want or need a possible means of accessing the server while still logged in.

That kind of access isn't something you'd want to build into the accounts either. An error setting up your new GM's privileges could give them full access to the server, or a hacker that managed to figure out how to give their character elevated privileges would get access. Better to have it in a fixed location and only able to be activated by the appropriate accounts.
Exactly, it would be suicidal for any game company to grant GMs those level of access. However, there is also zero reason for game devs to CREATE that type of access terminal in-game, and also LEAVE it in a live-built, there is simply no reason whatsoever to do. Any new patches or fixes are worked on and tested on an internal test server before they are pushed onto the live server anyway.

Fact of the matter is, the existence of the panel in SAO is solely for the purpose of being a plot device to move Yui's story along, it simply would never exist in a real-life MMO.

Last edited by kyp275; 2012-10-18 at 08:34.
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Old 2012-10-19, 11:05   Link #153
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It's called an INTERNAL TEST BUILT. Are you seriously suggesting that MMO devs pushes hotfix and patches UNTESTED onto the live server!?
Quote:
Exactly, it would be suicidal for any game company to grant GMs those level of access. However, there is also zero reason for game devs to CREATE that type of access terminal in-game, and also LEAVE it in a live-built, there is simply no reason whatsoever to do. Any new patches or fixes are worked on and tested on an internal test server before they are pushed onto the live server anyway.
The problem with that line of thinking is that in addition to being the first VRMMO, SAO is run by Cardinal. Pushing out hotfixes and patches live is pretty much exactly what it does. In other words, SAO employs a staggering amount of automation on it's back end, and updates things more or less on the fly. They even made attempts at automating some GM functions as seen by Yui.

So given the amount of work the game is doing on itself while live, it makes sense that the admins would also need the ability to do their own updates while it's live, or access and change the server while logged into the live server. If Cardinal for example shut down NPC AI like it shut down Yui, I can see the admins verifying the problem wanting the ability to teleport to the nearest console to restart them instead of going through the hassle of logging out to do it.
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Old 2012-10-19, 17:27   Link #154
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I thought it was interesting that Kirito was *spoiler* shown to be a swordfighter previously to entering the game. Also shown was that he had kept most of his swordfighting skill despite not practicing for 2 years. Can NervGear be an effective training device? If the device were real, it could be used for practicing skill sports. Strength training would still be important (as NervGear doesn't train muscles - only the mind).

Gymnastics and diving come to mind. The main limitation is that the body can take only so much practice a day. NervGear would allow the mind to surpass the limits of the body.
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Old 2012-10-19, 19:36   Link #155
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Originally Posted by jcdietz03 View Post
I thought it was interesting that Kirito was *spoiler* shown to be a swordfighter previously to entering the game. Also shown was that he had kept most of his swordfighting skill despite not practicing for 2 years. Can NervGear be an effective training device? If the device were real, it could be used for practicing skill sports. Strength training would still be important (as NervGear doesn't train muscles - only the mind).

Gymnastics and diving come to mind. The main limitation is that the body can take only so much practice a day. NervGear would allow the mind to surpass the limits of the body.
While the NervGear could be used as an excellent training aid, its VR isn't quite sophisticated enough to replace reality.

And don't forget, the mind has its limits too. You can be mentally exhausted just as much as you can be physically. A day full of training in RL, followed by a night full of training in VR sounds like a good way to burnout fast.

Edit: And I think it's less that Kirito remembered his Kendo skills from two years ago, and more that he tried to apply what he learned in SAO to the real world.
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Old 2012-10-20, 03:19   Link #156
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And he'd given up kendo years before SAO.
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Old 2012-10-21, 02:41   Link #157
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As requested, moving to the appropriate thread.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
As for reverting his parameters as a balance issue... the parameters he has are valid (within acceptable parameters), just that he didn't earn them within the ALO game.
Then they are acceptable parameters that wasn't working as it's supposed to be. Still within game balance issue methinks. Happens all the time with a lot of games in history.
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
All that to say, despite how he got to this point (through this cheat/exploit), I think at this point there isn't really any reason for Cardinal Jr. to think he's destroying game balance. Because he's probably one of the only people who've tried this, the current people running the game aren't necessarily aware of the need to patch the vulnerability.
A bug is a bug even if it isn't widely known. A lot of games have a patch fix up and running almost immediately after release nowadays. And an ideal debugging is to fix the bug before it gets too widely known anyways. And again, even if it isn't a bug, a lot of games also fix previously perfectly working skills to balance the game out as the players find ways to min-max everything.

So, I think it has to be coded in beforehand, even if it wasn't a complete code. Maybe not in the ALO game itself, but deep in the very engine of it, such that even Cardinal does not consider it a bug or an issue (or simply out of its reach).
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Old 2012-10-21, 02:47   Link #158
kyp275
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
A bug is a bug even if it isn't widely known. A lot of games have a patch fix up and running almost immediately after release nowadays. And an ideal debugging is to fix the bug before it gets too widely known anyways. And again, even if it isn't a bug, a lot of games also fix previously perfectly working skills to balance the game out as the players find ways to min-max everything.

So, I think it has to be coded in beforehand, even if it wasn't a complete code. Maybe not in the ALO game itself, but deep in the very engine of it, such that even Cardinal does not consider it a bug or an issue (or simply out of its reach).
Not all bugs are known, some would exists for years before becoming known, especially one that requires such a rare set of combination to pull off. Not to mention Cardinal itself is hardly "bug-free".

Also, as far as SAO and NervGear is concerned, while on the surface NervGear may not have appeared to have been built specifically for SAO, it's important to note that since Kayaba is the primary developer for BOTH, and considering that he's obviously planned this whole thing for quite awhile, it would be illogical to say that they weren't built for each other.
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Old 2012-10-21, 06:11   Link #159
Kimidori
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about the bug fixing thing, GM can not fix bug or change the code of the game, it programmer's job. and they don't get into the game, find the bug and fix it on the spot. they get into the game, find the bug, get out of the game, open the source code, find the bad code and fix it.
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Old 2012-10-21, 09:54   Link #160
lightbringer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimidori View Post
they get into the game, find the bug, get out of the game, open the source code, find the bad code and fix it.
Nobody really does that. There are ticket systems. Players or GMs will submit bug reports. GMs may act as a filter at this stage. Programmers will look at open bug tickets and if it's something that can be reproduced they will try to fix it. Then it's time to test the fix. Successful fixes will be merged into the main code base used for the current test build. Every once in a while a set of such fixes will be pushed, together with new features that have been tested, from the test build to the live build. Some MMOs allow regular players with an active subscription access to the test builds also (EVE, WoW both do this for instance) because this way the company gets a free army of testers and the players get to play with the new features earlier - it's a win-win situation.
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