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Old 2012-10-17, 23:09   Link #61
itachi-san314
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what you guys said about the Gods intervention in the iliad is of course true, but then why don't you translate that over to naruto and insert madara? the comparison still stands. madara is the puppetmaster 'god' putting obito in these positions or turmoil and mind altering scenarios much like the gods did to the humans in the iliad

also, obito does want rin back in a dream world as he stated, but that's an oversimplification as well. he wants to end a world that is capable of creating this type of suffering. it's similar to nagato's ideal that he came to believe from the pain he experienced over his parents, dog and yahiko. its not simply that obito's crush died so he will now massacre everyone. he is just doing what he deems necessary to change the world into a place where pain is nonexistent. and yes, i agree that it's crazy and over the top, i am just saying there is more to it than just blind vengeance over a childhood crush
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Old 2012-10-17, 23:14   Link #62
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Bring Sasuke back into the story already and move forward with this manga.
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Old 2012-10-17, 23:28   Link #63
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what would happen to the bodies of everyone? if they place everyone in the matrix, wont the ninja brain only last as long as the body is alive?

was that what all the androids where for? to collect the bodies after the moon eye plan was done to make sure no one died of starvation?
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Old 2012-10-17, 23:50   Link #64
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i am just saying there is more to it than just blind vengeance over a childhood crush
No, it is just over a crush. Obito didn't independently arrive at the conclusion that the world sucks, if he did I might like him more. Rather, like an emo teen, one bad thing happens to him (okay, having a boulder fall on you isn't nice, but considering the jokes he made immediatly after, it's hard to say how badly the rock hurt ), and he decides the world should suffer. It's pathetic and completely unsympathetic (it's also somewhat uninteresting).

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Bring Sasuke back into the story already and move forward with this manga.
I sincerely hope he arrives in time to kill Obito (but only after Obito learns the truth of Rin and potentially Madara's involvement).
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Old 2012-10-17, 23:54   Link #65
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No, it is just over a crush. Obito didn't independently arrive at the conclusion that the world sucks, if he did I might like him more. Rather, like an emo teen, one bad thing happens to him (okay, having a boulder fall on you isn't nice, but considering the jokes he made immediatly after, it's hard to say how badly the rock hurt ), and he decides the world should suffer. It's pathetic and completely unsympathetic (it's also somewhat uninteresting).
He must be frustrated with the present world. Continuous misfortune for him. Just when he made friends with Kakashi he nearly gets bouldered to death. Just when he is nearly healed he looses Rin. He lost his reason for leaving. Of course he will curse his fate.

Not unless you can convince him of second love
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Old 2012-10-18, 00:02   Link #66
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^There are many things a 13 year old boy can do to relieve frustration. Destroying the world is generally not one of them...
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Old 2012-10-18, 00:05   Link #67
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also, obito does want rin back in a dream world as he stated, but that's an oversimplification as well. he wants to end a world that is capable of creating this type of suffering. it's similar to nagato's ideal that he came to believe from the pain he experienced over his parents, dog and yahiko. its not simply that obito's crush died so he will now massacre everyone. he is just doing what he deems necessary to change the world into a place where pain is nonexistent. and yes, i agree that it's crazy and over the top, i am just saying there is more to it than just blind vengeance over a childhood crush
First, it really is all about Rin for Obito as this chapter made perfectly clear. The rest is an afterthought he intends to fix as well to live things "as they should be" but the one thing that makes him tick is Rin.
Secondly of course it's not about revenge and killing everyone, that's Sasuke's niche. Obito isn't revenge, he is absolute denial. Reality sucks so he will dream it off and murder anyone who stand in his way, it's not like their deaths and suffering matter because he will write it all off in his dream.

If you think that's insane contrary to Essenar who appear to think it's a normal reaction then we're not really in disagreement but while I have no problem with the idea of Tobi wanting to deny reality into oblivion (I think it actually fits quite well with the story) I find however the execution of the Obito/Rin part to be severely lacking if not completely dumb.
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[...] and he decides the world should suffer. It's pathetic and completely unsympathetic (it's also somewhat uninteresting).
I don't think that's the case, he doesn't want anyone to suffer particularly, he simply doesn't care because he believes everything he doesn't like will unhappen once he's successful.

Last edited by Hunter; 2012-10-18 at 00:17.
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Old 2012-10-18, 01:01   Link #68
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
what you guys said about the Gods intervention in the iliad is of course true, but then why don't you translate that over to naruto and insert madara? the comparison still stands. madara is the puppetmaster 'god' putting obito in these positions or turmoil and mind altering scenarios much like the gods did to the humans in the iliad

also, obito does want rin back in a dream world as he stated, but that's an oversimplification as well. he wants to end a world that is capable of creating this type of suffering. it's similar to nagato's ideal that he came to believe from the pain he experienced over his parents, dog and yahiko. its not simply that obito's crush died so he will now massacre everyone. he is just doing what he deems necessary to change the world into a place where pain is nonexistent. and yes, i agree that it's crazy and over the top, i am just saying there is more to it than just blind vengeance over a childhood crush
that was what i was hoping for actually but this chapter only shows that it wasn't the case. it was really about rin. i would've understood it if kishi showed us obito's childhood, that he was shunned by his clan because he was a disappointment and that rin was all he had so losing her would be crippling and devastating. but we barely know obito save for the fact that he is obsessed with his childhood friend, envied kakashi and is an uchiha. he struck me as a good natured kid with a generally positive view of the world. even kakashi had a more difficult childhood than him. so the leap from good kid to psychopath was a bit off for me. it would have been believable if it was written better, that's all.

as for madara playing the "god" in this drama, we don't know that for sure. if madara had chosen obito and planned his demise then maybe. but so far kishi has only confirmed a few things, obito just "fell on madara's lap" and made use of him. obito went psycho because rin died.

besides, madara is hardly petty. he is proud, ambitious and a bit of a lunatic. the gods in the iliad were petty, vindictive and vain. the three goddesses just wanted to know which one of them is the most beautiful, so they asked an unsuspecting paris and offered him riches, power, wisdom and the love of the most beautiful woman in the world - helen. paris chose the latter because of his vanity and pride as a man. helen was no more than a trophy that paris and menelaus fought over, none of them ever loved helen. agamemnon joined the fray because he was a power-tripping, war-hungry warlord who had always set his sights on troy. menelaus merely gave him a reason to sack the city. the gods also joined the war and all hell broke loose. the gods didn't plan for this war, nobody did. like hunter said, it was fate and the driving force behind all that was vanity not love. there was hardly any love in that story save for what hunter also mentioned earlier, the love between achilles and patroclus. but achilles was already part of that war, he didn't start it either, patroclus' death merely fueled his rage and warring tendencies.
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Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-10-18 at 01:13.
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Old 2012-10-18, 01:27   Link #69
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I don't think that's the case, he doesn't want anyone to suffer particularly, he simply doesn't care because he believes everything he doesn't like will unhappen once he's successful.
I think that this sums up how I feel about Obito/Tobi’s motives. I can honestly see him tell Kakashi in dialogue, “Why protect the nine tales? In my dream world he’ll live again, only happier with two parents.” Or some bull.

If Rin were even the slightly developed character maybe this could work. I think in total she had maybe ten dialogue bubbles throughout the entire series. There’s nothing negative about her (except the possible reason why Kakashi had to kill her, but that’s still just a theory). She’s a shell of a character with the traits guys like in girls. She’s nice, caring, nurturing and doesn’t talk that much.

Of course Obito would think he loved her, he hasn’t got to know the real Rin; the Rin that likes to relax on the coach and fart having no fear that she will be judge by her supposed ‘true love’; the Rin that just didn’t give a damn that day and does absolutely nothing—which includes cooking, cleaning and giving a damn for others (this extends to supposed ‘true love’ and leaving them to fend for themselves that day); the Rin that would snap at the drop of the hat because she’s in ‘one of her moods’. No, all Obito knows is Rin the girl he’s left on a pedestal so long that there’s more than a thick layer of dust burden on her shoulders. So even if he got into his dream world, it wouldn’t be the real Rin, just the Rin he thought he had loved. But that is what a crush is, is it not? Or is this more obsession territory?
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Old 2012-10-18, 01:56   Link #70
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what would happen to the bodies of everyone? if they place everyone in the matrix, wont the ninja brain only last as long as the body is alive?
I assume that once the plan takes effect, the flow of time will essentially cease. Itachi's genjutsu was strong enough to make a second last for days, so the moon's eye could make it last forever (think limbo - inception). Of course, who knows what happens when everyone dies inside the genjutsu and their offspring are left as byproducts of mingled minds?
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Old 2012-10-18, 02:23   Link #71
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Imo Naruto's personal experience was far worse than any other character's; from chapter 1 he's already with no friends and no home...and things only get worse after the VotE.
Off the top of my head, I think its pretty apparent that Gaara and Nagato are two characters who endured a worse childhood than Naruto. Unlike them, Naruto usually had a role model nearby that conveniently served as an anchor to keep him from straying too far, as Sasuke has(among several other things). And, even despite that, Naruto was still willing to diverge from his ideals at one point.

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He didn't save Sasuke, he lost Jiraiya, half his village actually perished and he was still holding onto his beliefs. In contrast, Obito cracked immediately.
Except that Naruto "cracked" during the Pein fight and Minato had to stop him from literally giving himself to hatred and being consumed by the Kyuubi : /

Naruto himself fully acknowledged that he could have ended up consumed by hatred as Sasuke did very easily, had certain circumstances been different in their lives, as per his conversation with Sasuke after the Danzou battle.
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Old 2012-10-18, 02:31   Link #72
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Gaara was possessed, so setting him aside, the other two actually held up pretty well. Nagato witnessed the death of his parents and experienced war at a very young age but still pulled through until the Danzou incident and Naruto went through a lot of stuff before his ultimate fight against Pain. Obito just cracked at the first obstacle, and while it's something plausible, it definitely lacks the impact we've already seen in others.
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Old 2012-10-18, 03:25   Link #73
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No but I'm going to critize you for completely missing the point of the Illiad.
As ronin myael said -and even he overstated it I think- love was no important factor at all in this story but for the love of Achille for Patroclus and that wasn't the kind of love you talk about. The Illiad is all about fate, vanity and honor from men and gods.
But more importantly the point isn"t that you can't use love in fiction, that's stupid. Countless works of fiction have done that successfully realistically or not.
No, the problem is that in this story it is very badly written even taking into account the character's usual oversensitivity.
Although I maintain that brain damage does explain almost everything.


Yes it is, and if you truly believe that the death of your 13 years old unrequited crush would put you on a path to murder tens of thousand strangers, genocide your kin and kill your friends if it was within your power then you might want to think about consulting a professional. This is not normal.
Obito's personality collapse makes Sasuke look sane in comparison and that's saying something.
Dude, I did some crazy stupid stuff when I was 13-14 over a girl. Even stupider when I was 16. My high school girlfriend was cheating on me with some 22 year old. You have no idea how torturing that was. When you're a teenager in a relationship, you literally get nearly drunk with rage when people tell you it won't last and that you're young. I found out she was cheating and I almost entirely lost control of myself, drove my mom's SUV into a public park, broke some of my stuff. Going through a traumatic situation like that when you're a teenager, fresh into hormones and not adult enough to understand how to react. It's pretty scary.

Of course now, I'm in my late 20's, I'm a lot more mature and I know how stupid it was but does it change that it happened? Not at all. I get worried when I hear about kids having relationships because I know it's a lot of emotional weight for them to try to deal with: jealousy, intimacy, yearning, depression, confidence.

Obito was 13-16 years old and not only did he LOSE the girl he loved, his best friend stabbed her through the chest. This was after he tried to sacrifice his life for that same best friend and had his body permanently mutilated from it. And he also spent that time trapped in a cave with a zombie old man and a clone that want to take over the world. And YOU think it's a poorly executed plot? lol.

It's like you expect him to come out of that cave perfectly normal.

"OH well, my love died by my best friend's hand? Trapped in a cave with crazy old guy? Half of my body is made out of clone goop? Who cares, time to join Match.com and find a new girlfriend! Hey Kakashi! Did you hit it? PROPS BRO. Wanna go to Chipotle?"
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Old 2012-10-18, 03:26   Link #74
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Here's what I don't get. First people are complaining about Obito being a vengeful nut because his crush died. And now that it turns out he -isn't- a vengeful nut, people are STILL angry.
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Old 2012-10-18, 04:51   Link #75
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Dude, I did some crazy stupid stuff when I was 13-14 over a girl. Even stupider when I was 16. My high school girlfriend was cheating on me with some 22 year old. You have no idea how torturing that was. When you're a teenager in a relationship, you literally get nearly drunk with rage when people tell you it won't last and that you're young. I found out she was cheating and I almost entirely lost control of myself, drove my mom's SUV into a public park, broke some of my stuff. Going through a traumatic situation like that when you're a teenager, fresh into hormones and not adult enough to understand how to react. It's pretty scary.
you have a point. people cope with stress quite differently. i lost 3 family members when i was a teenager, i've always felt like the odd man out in my own family, i developed depression at a very early age. i was an angry kid and i usually lashed out on people when i felt frustrated. but you know what? i didn't kill anyone. if there was anyone that i hated and hurt the most, it was myself. i hated how things turned out but i mostly blamed myself for my own suffering, not other people. most kids who go through depression don't really blame others, rather they question their own worth. they ask questions like: why is this happening to me? am i a bad person? why can't people understand and love me? i can understand what obito did at that very moment, but i can't understand why he never saw the insanity of it all even when he reached maturity. when you grow older you tend to see things in a different light. you tend to recognize the mistakes you've made. some of the things you did when you were young even seems silly to you now. i wonder if he ever had second thoughts or felt that what he was doing is wrong.
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Old 2012-10-18, 04:58   Link #76
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I think the point is that different people react to the same things differently.
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Old 2012-10-18, 05:27   Link #77
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@ Essenar, do note that they are soldiers, supposedly prepared for the consequences of battle at the ninja academy and that it all took place on the battlefield.
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Old 2012-10-18, 06:31   Link #78
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If Rin were even the slightly developed character maybe this could work. I think in total she had maybe ten dialogue bubbles throughout the entire series. There’s nothing negative about her (except the possible reason why Kakashi had to kill her, but that’s still just a theory). She’s a shell of a character with the traits guys like in girls. She’s nice, caring, nurturing and doesn’t talk that much.

Yes.

I think this is the primary characterization bothering me as well.

So far we have the precedent with Kabuto and the likes of him being spies since an early age.

I think it's highly likely that the reason Rin's characterization has been minimal and her behavior running parallel to stereotypical manners is just that, her being a spy of some sort, pretending to be a friend yet gunning for betrayal.

If that was her real side, it puts Obito's real world perceptions in question, because all he ever really loved was an unrealistic cardboard cutout, and thus his designs on the world end up being ludicrous that much more as a direct result.
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Old 2012-10-18, 07:04   Link #79
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Why are people still expecting Tobito's motivation to be sane/rational?

He's a crazy man, the crazy man does crazy shit for crazy reasons because he's crazy.

Can we get over this issue already?
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Old 2012-10-18, 07:07   Link #80
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He's got an elaborate plan (even if he didn't come up with it) and he has a rational reason for doing it, he doesn't want to accept his friend's death. The point is, it's a hell of a weak reason. Sasuke watched his brother massacre his entire clan, Gaara had his father's assassin's on his back and a spiteful demon in his head to face, now THAT is some serious shit that gets you messed up.
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