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Old 2012-10-18, 09:12   Link #101
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NK_500 View Post
Back shounen and its evolutionary cousin seinen, some of the male harem leads have evolved. We already have some horndogs like *ahem* Makoto(School Days), that guy from High School D x D(Don't know his name and don't care about it either) and perhaps Haruka from Yosuga no Sora. In comparison to some earlier harem leads like Keitaro(Love Hina), its many steps ahead.
None of those have anything to do with shounen or seinen, other than Love Hina.

School Days = adults only game (eroge)
Highschool DxD = Light Novel
Yosuga no Sora = adults only game (eroge)
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Old 2012-10-18, 09:57   Link #102
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
How about Tomoya of Clannad..?
While Tomoya is the "playable" character in the VN, it's pretty much KyoAni's doing that he's able to become a character that's alive (of course this is only my interpretation of this). It's sort of the same case for Kanon's Yuuichi who from someone painfully normal (Kanon 2002) turned into someone with snark and vibrance (Kanon 2006). The MC being devoid of a personality should be eradicated already in the anime medium as it doesn't work the same way.

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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
It depends really. The main attraction of the harem genre is the girls and their personalities and problems. Adding depth to the main character would be nice indeed, but it's not really necessary in this genre.
See, this thinking of harem MCs not needing a personality is exactly the reason why it exists. I'd get it if it was something you were playing (a VN) and the character doesn't have a personality since the player chooses the choices but in anime, (unless intentional) this is just poor characterization in general.

The main attraction might be the girls and the creators would want to explore on their problems, but as with Tomoya of CLANNAD, things should be presented in a better manner already. It's like putting more stereotypes (that the main characters are devoid of problems themselves while all 10 heroines have problems) on something so stereotypical already.

In essence, generic harem anime with generic male lead is probably the WORST thing an anime could do especially now that harem anime can be presented in so many interesting ways.
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Old 2012-10-18, 10:03   Link #103
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Originally Posted by ahelo View Post
While Tomoya is the "playable" character in the VN, it's pretty much KyoAni's doing that he's able to become a character that's alive (of course this is only my interpretation of this). It's sort of the same case for Kanon's Yuuichi who from someone painfully normal (Kanon 2002) turned into someone with snark and vibrance (Kanon 2006). The MC being devoid of a personality should be eradicated already in the anime medium as it doesn't work the same way.


See, this thinking of harem MCs not needing a personality is exactly the reason why it exists. I'd get it if it was something you were playing (a VN) and the character doesn't have a personality since the player chooses the choices but in anime, (unless intentional) this is just poor characterization in general.

The main attraction might be the girls and the creators would want to explore on their problems, but as with Tomoya of CLANNAD, things should be presented in a better manner already. It's like putting more stereotypes (that the main characters are devoid of problems themselves while all 10 heroines have problems) on something so stereotypical already.

In essence, generic harem anime with generic male lead is probably the WORST thing an anime could do especially now that harem anime can be presented in so many interesting ways.
Actually characters in VN and eroge do have personalities, even if there are choices.
The problem is that most of the time their personalities are pretty donkan, if the story is not plot heavy or action based.

Games made by Key (like in your own example Clannad and Kanon) are pretty story heavy.
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Old 2012-10-18, 10:45   Link #104
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Originally Posted by NK_500 View Post
For some reason I don't know how this 'silly' thread become so popular.
Better ask the OP about why the heck he/she made this thread in the first place. Yep, i know that this thread is silly, but somehow i felt that the theme presented is quite thought provoking (at least in my opinion).
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Old 2012-10-18, 11:10   Link #105
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I don't want to sound nitpicky, but even if the romance or plot is shallow, can you really call fanservice harem anime "shounen" when the inteded audience are clearly at least mature male (just from the fanservice alone)?
Something like To Love-Ru originally ran in Shounen Jump, and Darkness (famed for its "borderline" sexual content) is now in Jump Square (another shounen magazine by the same publisher). In the West we usually consider sexual fanservice for "mature audiences only", but that isn't the way it's usually pitched in the home market. (Though of course being a shounen property doesn't prevent older audiences from also buying it. After all, they're the ones who buy most of the anime Blu-Rays/DVDs.)
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Old 2012-10-18, 11:17   Link #106
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Something like To Love-Ru originally ran in Shounen Jump, and Darkness (famed for its "borderline" sexual content) is now in Jump Square (another shounen magazine by the same publisher).
It was (a little) tamer when it ran in the shounen jump.
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Old 2012-10-18, 12:43   Link #107
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While I get what you're saying, I'm not sure if this frames the issue properly.

Most harem anime male leads are not incorrigible lechs that will take every opportunity to "have their way with" women.

Most of the set-ups for tsundere abuse involves some sort of bizarre accident where the guy and the tsundere female somehow get tangled up in a compromising way, and/or the guy accidentally stumbles in on the tsundere female in a state of an undress.

But 9 times out of 10 it is, in fact, a genuine accident (i.e. it's not a clever lech pretending to stumble into the girl's washroom when he really was trying to sneak a peek ). In some of these cases, maybe you could say that the male lead is a horribly clumsy bungler who had it coming to him, but there's also a fair number of cases where it really is an obvious, understandable accident and the guy shouldn't be punched for it.
Eh, Iím not sure youíre giving sufficient recognition to the female perspective here. The guyís intention does matter, but at the end of the day the bottom line for her is likely to be that he saw her naked. In other words, DONíT DO THAT YOU IDIOT.

That said, I donít think anime necessarily portrays the retribution all that accurately Ė your typical tsundere probably isnít going to punch you out on the spot. More likely, sheíll be embarrassed and then give you some good jabs to the ribs and heckling about it later.

(The tsunderes Iíve known in real life tend to go for the ribsÖ usually, the level of force clearly isnít intended to actually hurt that much as their intention is to make a point rather than cause damage, though underestimation is fairly common. Also, one of them used used a kendo stick one time andÖ yeah, even a light jab feels pretty powerful)

I also think, regardless of the tsundere reluctance to forgive (try and imagine Taiga swallowing her pride... yeah), that bashful apologetics are an underexplored frontier in tsundereism.
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Old 2012-10-18, 12:54   Link #108
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
I don't want to sound nitpicky, but even if the romance or plot is shallow, can you really call fanservice harem anime "shounen" when the inteded audience are clearly at least mature male (just from the fanservice alone)?
Once calls it by whatever publisher handled it -- this is a common western anime fan error. The content is irrelevant, the label denotes the publishing house's professed demographic audience.

Typical western fan mischaracterization versus fact:

K-On! is not a "girlie manga", its a seinen publication, as was the anime (though the director made some subtle shifts so that it ganered mainstream appeal.

Toradora! is not "girlie romance", its a shounen publication.

Yotsuba& is shounen.

I could go on for pages. Typically, what complainer/whiners want are one small subsection of the kind of material shounen publications include in what they publish

What I'm seeing in THIS thread are complaints that seem to base their entire opinion off of a few of the simplest (or older) examples of 'harem anime' or 'tsundere' or whatever they're upset about.
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Old 2012-10-18, 12:58   Link #109
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A harem anime focuses on the appeal of the female characters typically, and thus the male character often just gets written as a penis. This is why Ero VNs often have the male as extremely nondescript and not voiced so one can pretend his presence is minimal. Most of the time in Bishoujo anime or games, you wouldn't expect the guy to take prominence on the cover right?

However, things are changing and we seem to be moving away from these things. Certainly Haruka from Yosuga no Sora for example is probably just as attractive as the female characters in the show.
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Old 2012-10-18, 12:58   Link #110
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
What I'm seeing in THIS thread are complaints that seem to base their entire opinion off of a few of the simplest (or older) examples of 'harem anime' or 'tsundere' or whatever they're upset about.
Should we just lock this thread already? I see no more function in this thread aside of pointless talks and chatroom. Not to mention the OP of this thread keep throwing his childish ideals which completely off-base.
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:08   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A harem anime focuses on the appeal of the female characters typically, and thus the male character often just gets written as a penis. This is why Ero VNs often have the male as extremely nondescript and not voiced so one can pretend his presence is minimal. Most of the time in Bishoujo anime or games, you wouldn't expect the guy to take prominence on the cover right?
I always find this argument kind of strange because quite a few of the VNs I've read had memorable protagonists. For example, Takashi Kuranari in Ever 17: The Out of Infinity, one of the best VNs ever to receive a commercial English translation (not that that's saying much, perhaps) though admittedly a non-ero example.

Quote:
However, things are changing and we seem to be moving away from these things. Certainly Haruka from Yosuga no Sora for example is probably just as attractive as the female characters in the show.
Hmmm... as a straight male I'm rather attached to Akira Amatsune but I could definitely see myself going for Haruka if I were a girl. He's got a pretty lethal combo of shota cuteness and manliness. And unlike School Days' Makoto, he's not a detestable douchebag. He actually adds value to the show.
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:18   Link #112
hyl
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
A harem anime focuses on the appeal of the female characters typically, and thus the male character often just gets written as a penis. This is why Ero VNs often have the male as extremely nondescript and not voiced so one can pretend his presence is minimal. Most of the time in Bishoujo anime or games, you wouldn't expect the guy to take prominence on the cover right?

However, things are changing and we seem to be moving away from these things. Certainly Haruka from Yosuga no Sora for example is probably just as attractive as the female characters in the show.
That's probably a misconception that many people think who don't frequently read eroges.

The protagonists do and should have some personality, otherwise the story will almost get unbearable like Imouto no Katachi.

As such i can easily name plenty of good main characters in eroge who have interesting backstories, traits and/or personalities.
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:30   Link #113
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I always find this argument kind of strange because quite a few of the VNs I've read had memorable protagonists. For example, Takashi Kuranari in Ever 17: The Out of Infinity, one of the best VNs ever to receive a commercial English translation (not that that's saying much, perhaps) though admittedly a non-ero example.
Well, I'm referring to mainly ero ones that were meant for sex bascially, not just any VN. Though it's entirely possible that a VN can contain erotic content and I wouldn't consider it. After all, I really doubt anyone went to Key or Type moon for porn.

Still my point was with the frequent occurrence of the male lead not having a voice+ and the frequent tendency of most of the graphics from those scenes to greatly obscure the dude's face. It certainly is not a nonexistent trope. And even excluding that, the guys are often heavily clothed during the sex.


Quote:
Hmmm... as a straight male I'm rather attached to Akira Amatsune but I could definitely see myself going for Haruka if I were a girl. He's got a pretty lethal combo of shota cuteness and manliness. And unlike School Days' Makoto, he's not a detestable douchebag. He actually adds value to the show.
He's one of the few male characters I'd consider moe looking and attractive looking as well. In fact, I prefer his design over his sister's! Well there's also Kaiji, but that's neither here nor there.
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:38   Link #114
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
That's probably a misconception that many people think who don't frequently read eroges.

The protagonists do and should have some personality, otherwise the story will almost get unbearable like Imouto no Katachi.

As such i can easily name plenty of good main characters in eroge who have interesting backstories, traits and/or personalities.
Umm, dude, can you please refrain yourself from mentioning characters from many eroges as examples? Most of us here cannot read japanese and thus totally clueless about eroge. I've been following your post in this thread and honestly i felt confused if you keep throwing such examples (no offense for you).
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Old 2012-10-18, 13:41   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Insane View Post
Umm, dude, can you please refrain yourself from mentioning characters from many eroges as examples? Most of us here cannot read japanese and thus totally clueless about eroge. I've been following your post in this thread and honestly i felt confused if you keep throwing such examples (no offense for you).
It's kind of hard to prove my point that people are wrong who think that eroges can't have good written main characters, without giving any examples. Eventhough i am aware that many people in this forum don't read them and have no bloody idea what i am blabbering about
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:01   Link #116
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
It's kind of hard to prove my point that people are wrong who think that eroges can't have good written main characters, without giving any examples. Eventhough i am aware that many people in this forum don't read them and have no bloody idea what i am blabbering about
I never said they can't have well written main characters at all, did I?

I can't prove a negative, so feel free to list them. But can you be confident that these are just exceptions.

You're right though, I haven't an exhaustive list of VNs that I've played and almost never complete them, however, I think I've had enough experience with games and hentai to put two and two together. This is why I don't use the words most and all to avoid retarded semantics debates.

To me though it's simple logic that as a game that features many attractive females will put the focus on them. There are many, many ones that feature them on the cover, no? And there's just a higher chance they'd be more interesting. It's what sells.

It's also simple logic that a game is inherently a self insert in most regards, especially when you can direct the character's actions. Making a character too distinct could interfere with the process. Of course, games are evolving.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that pornographic material has certain elements of sexual fantasy to it which of course increases the self-insert factor.

Finally, it would be safe to say that a lot of the audience, heterosexual males, do not have interesting men in their sexual fantasies.

And to me it makes perfect sense that when the transition comes to anime, that viewers obviously do not have control over the protagonist's actions and a straight port will seem boring.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:05   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
I never said they can't have well written main characters at all, did I?

I can't prove a negative, so feel free to list them. But can you be confident that these are just exceptions.

You're right though, I haven't an exhaustive list of VNs that I've played and almost never complete them, however, I think I've had enough experience with games and hentai to put two and two together. This is why I don't use the words most and all to avoid retarded semantics debates.

To me though it's simple logic that as a game that features many attractive females will put the focus on them. There are many, many ones that feature them on the cover, no? And there's just a higher chance they'd be more interesting. It's what sells.

It's also simple logic that a game is inherently a self insert in most regards, especially when you can direct the character's actions. Making a character too distinct could interfere with the process. Of course, games are evolving.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to say that pornographic material has certain elements of sexual fantasy to it which of course increases the self-insert factor.

Finally, it would be safe to say that a lot of the audience, heterosexual males, do not have interesting men in their sexual fantasies.

And to me it makes perfect sense that when the transition comes to anime, that viewers obviously do not have control over the protagonist's actions and a straight port will seem boring.
The thing is, a VN has much more inner thoughts than let's say animes, mangas and most LN's that i have read. The way how they act/respond and all the moments what they are thinking give them a personality.

Your control of the said character is rather limited, i get choices A, B, C and almost every time none of these answers are anything close how i would respond in that situation.

The male character is in lot's of cases more than just as you said "penis" for the story.

I think that visual novels are as the name suggests still novels but in a slight different form. Which means all the characters (including the MC) play their part , so that the story can work (or fail). It's not like what was mentioned earlier a dating game like Tokimeki memorial in which the main character was almost a bland slate.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:08   Link #118
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
The thing is, a VN has much more inner thoughts than let's say animes, mangas and most LN's that i have read. The way how they act/respond and all the moments what they are thinking give them a personality.
The male character is in lot's of cases more than just as you said "penis" for the story.
Lol, I agree there. I think I was using wayyyy too much hyperbole and just been stung too many by an adaptation.

Quote:
Your control of the said character is rather limited, i get choices A, B, C and lots of occasions none of them are anything close how i would respond in that situation
I guess that is really an issue, and that is off putting; but then again that would lead to many, many exhaustive branches.

Although, I might have just found a revelation about video game adaptations in general and the difficulty of adapting them.
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Old 2012-10-18, 14:09   Link #119
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i think the ultimate answer to the Op is that This is What Sells, so this is what we get.
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Old 2012-10-18, 17:15   Link #120
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
It's not exact proof, because we don't know how much impact the huge popularity of the LN's had on the hype of the anime.
You're really grasping at straws here.

Look, the fact is that there's no real evidence that the anime market is against harem anime (or anime with harem anime elements) with strong male leads. There's no evidence whatsoever for that, and there's plenty of evidence to the contrary (not just SAO, but also the Key titles, as I hold both Yuichi and Tomoya to be pretty strong male leads).

Look, if you simply like doormat male leads, then defend that. Don't try to hide behind some misplaced economic argument that completely flies in the face of the success of SAO, Kanon, Clannad, Steins;Gate, and many other anime shows.

Heck, how about the Monogatari Series? You certainly don't get much more harem-esque than that, and the male lead in that is a pretty strong character.


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Risk aversion. If something is not broken, there is no need to fix it.
That has nothing to do with my point. My point is that we have a clear economic record of harem anime (or harem-esque anime) with strong male leads selling perfectly well (and no TV anime has sold better than the Monogatari series). There's no "risk" either way, so risk aversion is not the issue here.


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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Eh, I’m not sure you’re giving sufficient recognition to the female perspective here.
I'm giving recognition to the human perspective. A decent human being doesn't slug a person over an innocent accident.


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The guy’s intention does matter, but at the end of the day the bottom line for her is likely to be that he saw her naked.
In some cases, it's as much her fault as it is his (in a few cases, it may even be more her fault than his). The guy is not an idiot just because he caught her naked. Maybe she should have locked the door when she went into the washroom to have a shower. That's what most people do, after all.
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