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Old 2012-04-23, 05:56   Link #3541
Zakoo
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Oho nice one for the IME; I didn't know, thanks for the website too, it helps a lot.
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Old 2012-10-18, 17:29   Link #3542
Zakoo
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Hello guys, again in need of you. Just a grammar basic I don't manage to get.

顔見られてる

The sentence was translated as "She's looking at me", but I don't understand why, the form -rareru is used for passive or ability, but in this example there's the -teru after, what does that mean?

My hypothesis was that since there's kao in front, the words to words translation would be "my face is being looked at" ( obviously it's ugly to put it this way but am I getting this right?) since there's the passive form + the form in "teru" which means the duration (a way of writing -te+iru faster?)

Thanks in advance.
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Old 2012-10-18, 19:41   Link #3543
Seitsuki
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Yep, that would be the literal TL. A more natural way of expression would probably be something along the lines of 'I'm being looked at'. 'Teiru' generally means 'currently (doing)' to clarify tense as the plain form alone is rather ambiguous. As an irregular verb the potential of 見る is 見える/見えられる so you can be sure it's the passive form here.

It's still pretty much the same meaning as what they've TLed it as. So long as there are no real inaccuracies, I don't believe being literal is terribly good English in many cases (the grammar and syntax are just fundamentally different).
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Old 2012-10-18, 20:52   Link #3544
Avatar of Dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
My hypothesis was that since there's kao in front, the words to words translation would be "my face is being looked at" ( obviously it's ugly to put it this way but am I getting this right?) since there's the passive form + the form in "teru" which means the duration (a way of writing -te+iru faster?)
Yes, writing/saying "teru" is shorthand for "te iru" as they sound very similar so you can slur it in casual conversation. The meaning is the same. This actually occurs with many "te+verb" forms such as "te+iku" = "teku" or "te+oku" = "toku"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
As an irregular verb the potential of 見る is 見える/見えられる so you can be sure it's the passive form here.
This is misleading. The potential form of 見る is the same as its passive form, 見られる. 見える is a verb that is extremely similar to 見られる and can be used interchangeably in many cases. They are however not always equivalent in meaning. 聞ける and 聞こえる are in a similar vein.

見えられる is not used as a potential verb as you are trying to attach the potential ending to what is already essentially a potential verb. It can be used with a completely different meaning in polite Japanese but I will not go into that.
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Old 2012-10-18, 23:06   Link #3545
Cosmic Eagle
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Isn't 見える more for stuff which can be viewed with minimal effort with a similar nuance to *something coming into view* while 見られる implies a certain effort needed before that something can be seen? Same with 聞ける and 聞こえる. I wasn't aware they were interchangeable...
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Old 2012-10-19, 02:01   Link #3546
Zakoo
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Thanks to everybody, I will come again if I need help, I'm finally at the end of JPLT 3. So it's time I put the kanji on the side and enter the gramatical woorld.
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Old 2012-10-19, 02:51   Link #3547
Seitsuki
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I.. don't know. They TL close enough for me so I think of them the same. Now that I think about it though my teacher may have said something along those lines.. but.. orz
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Old 2012-10-19, 04:07   Link #3548
Cosmic Eagle
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Yeah for rendering into english puposes it's usually interchangeable...but because of that nuance, well, sometimes a different word choice in translating may be appropriate. And usage-wise...Like I said, I've never seen them used in situations where the other would fit...
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Old 2012-10-19, 07:54   Link #3549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Isn't 見える more for stuff which can be viewed with minimal effort with a similar nuance to *something coming into view* while 見られる implies a certain effort needed before that something can be seen? Same with 聞ける and 聞こえる. I wasn't aware they were interchangeable...
Perhaps 'interchangeable' is too strong a word. Yes, 見られる only implies that there is the possibility of "seeing", perhaps requiring some form of effort, while 見える denotes the spontaneous notion of something being visible. I was merely implying that there are situations where the use of one word over the other will not have a drastic change to the meaning of a sentence. For example, when the "effort" relating to 見られる is merely the action of turning your head in the right direction which in case the word choice will depend on the speaker's perspective.

Last edited by Avatar of Dreams; 2012-10-19 at 08:12.
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Old 2012-10-19, 09:43   Link #3550
Cosmic Eagle
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I see...that's actually more subjective than I imagined...
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Old 2012-11-02, 05:56   Link #3551
erneiz_hyde
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When Working! aired, I didn't really pay attention to why the cross-dressing Souta was nicknamed "Kotori". So I recently saw the kanji of Takanashi Rikka from this season's chuu2koi. I was perplexed that in her family name (小鳥飛) none of the kanji used can be read remotely as "Takanashi", but I can certainly see the "Kotori"
(小鳥) in there.

Turns out, 小鳥飛 => 小鳥が飛ぶ (the small bird flies). Which means its enemy, the hawk/falcon isn't around (鷹無し) => たかなし (Takanashi).

Are there any more names that is read uniquely like this?
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Old 2012-11-02, 07:03   Link #3552
JINNSK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Are there any more names that is read uniquely like this?
九(Ichijiku)
四月朔日(Watanuki)
八月朔日(Hozumi)
月美里(Yamanashi)
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Old 2012-11-02, 08:00   Link #3553
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When it comes to names, readings tend to be a little...flexible.

I believe that particular character's name is written 「小鳥遊」(well, according to wikipedia and the official website), though Takanashi can be written both ways. You are correct on its nuance though.

And I'll explain the meanings of the names JINNSK posted:
九(いちじく)=一字で九 = Literally "nine" with one character
四月朔日, also 四月一日(わたぬき)=綿を抜く=The written name literally means April 1st while the reading means 'to take the cotton out' (of your clothes). This is a reference to the old days where people would take out the cotton that was padding their clothes because the weather gets warmer in Spring.
八月朔日, also 八月一日(ほづみ)=穂を摘む = August 1st/ 'Pluck the ear of plants' (of wheat and such) because August is harvest season.
月美里, also 月見里(やまなし)=山がない=Name means 'the town where the moon is beautiful/visible' while the reading means 'no mountain' (so nothing blocks the moon).

Personally I would never name a child these names, but to each his own.
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Old 2012-11-02, 08:30   Link #3554
erneiz_hyde
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Interesting...How common are these names in Japan really, and how long have they been in use? Is there a "name" for this kind of readings? (like "the 4-character idioms" or something like that). This reminds me how R07 wrote 「ばとら」(Battler) as 「戦人」 in Umineko, the lone difference where everyone else uses ateji.
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Old 2012-11-02, 17:21   Link #3555
Zakoo
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Hue hue hue me again.

So well as always grammar, my weak point, french is totally different than japenese, nah actually I'm bad at french grammar too so whatever.

The word から can be used to show either the causis (after verb or adjective) or the point of beginning (after a noun), fine I understand this.

but let's take this sentence :

聞くだけわ聞いてあげるからいってみなさいよ

I understand it as "Fine if it's only listening, I'm going to listen to you so ask me."

Context is a brother asking a request... I guess?

I can not see the word kara here being used as a causis, yet its after a verb. am I getting this wrong?
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Old 2012-11-02, 21:45   Link #3556
Cosmic Eagle
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Errm....I don't really understand proper terms for grammar but to me, the kara here is acting as denoting a reason for something

I would translate as

If it's only listening, I'll listen, so ask away.

He's saying to ask because he'll listen

And the wa particle is mistyped btw


I may be wrong though, just saying first....
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-11-02 at 21:57.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:22   Link #3557
Avatar of Dreams
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^This is correct.

A から B
B because A
Basically 'ask/tell me because I'll listen'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Interesting...How common are these names in Japan really, and how long have they been in use? Is there a "name" for this kind of readings? (like "the 4-character idioms" or something like that). This reminds me how R07 wrote 「ばとら」(Battler) as 「戦人」 in Umineko, the lone difference where everyone else uses ateji.
Common? No. In use? Yes. For how long? My knowledge of Japanese history does not extend long enough for me to really know.

I am not aware of any special designation given to these names. I suppose they are a form of 'wordplay' (言葉遊び)but I can't think of anything more specific than that.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:27   Link #3558
Zakoo
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I see .. thank to both of you.

Honestly what a weird way of putting it but that's what make different language so interesting.

I will be back.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:39   Link #3559
Cosmic Eagle
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It's not weird.....The thing before the kara is the reason. This one here may look complicated to newcomers to the language because 聞くだけは聞いてあげる may seem long but it helps if you mentally break that up into parts

聞くだけは聞いてあげる

The red elaborates on the blue (as in "I'll listen" further elaborates on "as it's just listening") but the whole thing serves as the reason.
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-11-03 at 22:11.
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Old 2012-11-03, 20:53   Link #3560
Alchemist007
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Really, you just need to do some more reading, it helps to digest a lot of concepts. A good book will give you many examples and translations to get it (useful for basics).
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