AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-10-19, 10:23   Link #30921
Captain Bluebeard
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
EP5? Yeah, good times.
But it's not the same thing. In EP5 everyone else was in on it and did their best to hide the corpses from Erika (the detective), plus there kinda were hints of fake deaths all over the place.

I've watched his explanation of the EP1 twilight, I clenched my teeth and tried to endure him, but it's utterly ridiculous. Okay, maybe it was the bad wording of 'death drug' like you said above, but still.... nothing in his explanations seems to tie in with anything, that's why I can't see where the idea he's uncovered the big conspiracy behind Umineko comes from.

Plus he's an arrogant bounder.

Quote:
Well, he claims that Ryukishi lies in interviews, so yeah, I don't think what you are saying here is the slightest exaggeration.
That's exactly my point, and I think Jan-Poo's characterization of him as a 'conspiracy theorist' is deserving of applause.

Even if we accept that Rosa is the Prime culprit, even if we clench our butts and half-heartedly say: yeah, all the absurd stuff make sense, it was all crazy lady for no apparent reason (yeah, sounds almost like Shkanon but at least regardless of how solid it is, at least it does actually connect the points with SOME logic), how, oh, how the hell are we so sure that Ryukishi is writing bullshit to deceive us, waiting for an enlighted guy with an unbearable accent to come and uncover everything in YouTube, and what reason is good enough for a person to spend four years of his life masturbating via the internet at the expense of the people who are dumb enough to read his prodcut.

Apparently, he won't tell.
__________________

It's tough to be blue...
Captain Bluebeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-19, 10:37   Link #30922
Kiltias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Why are people so shocked by Yasu's appearance? She looks pretty much how I expected her to, really. I always assumed she was blonde, considering that she's supposed to resemble Beatrice.
Same.

Though anybody else thinking this is all we'll get to see of Yasu?
As in we'll never see her actual face/eyes.

Oh and, I freaking LOVE this one:
Spoiler for Manga:


Quote:
Well, he claims that Ryukishi lies in interviews
At least he didn't go as far as some others claiming stuff like Battler being Marias father born cause Rosa seduced him when he was a boy.

Then again, I only watched one video not even full cause I admit, my head actually couldn't take it.XD

I got nothing against the guy, nor theory I don't mind it, though he does strike me as a bit of a (bleep).Or at least arrogant partially.

My doubts are little regarding Yasu as I said before, though personally I am an admirer of the depth regarding her and the truth.
Don't really care if people disagree but I see Yasu as simply an amazing character without equal.
I explained it to a friend as she only saw the Anime and she was like:
"Too deep!TOO DEEP!"

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-19 at 10:51.
Kiltias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-19, 11:02   Link #30923
theacefrehley
Guitar Man
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post

At least he didn't go as far as some others claiming stuff like Battler being Marias father born cause Rosa seduced him when he was a boy.
Now everything makes sense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Here's what I have to say about it:

Logistical reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Bribing the police should be pretty difficult.

Thematic reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Eva, who survives in the real world, dies in both of the bottle-stories.
2) Beatrice is supposed to be dead by all magical accounts.

Logistical reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) Battler's return was predicted.
2) Ange's absence was predicted.
3) The typhoon was predicted.
4) An accident was predicted. (Well, this just means that either the author is the actual culprit, or it was written after the tragedy)

Thematic reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) The way I see it, this situation is kind of like a closed room, except it's bound by points in time rather than physical windows and doors. So I see debating whether these logistical conditions allow the author enough time to write... as similar to debating how long the chain is on a closed room and whether it allows someone to lock it or unlock it from the outside. But knowing how Beatrice rolls, the answer has nothing to do with the chain and everything to do with the witnesses: In this case, it's that random fisherman that found the one bottle and the police that released the other.

So yeah, I believe in post-incident authorship. A lot of people here do, though not everyone.
I always imagined the bottle message stories were ready for quite some time, in case Battler came back or something. And typhoons are a normal occurrence around there, maybe?
And maybe Ange's roles in the stories were so small, Yasu could just erase her name and fill it with whatever, if she wrote it with a pencil. Even if Ange's absence was informed a day or two before the meeting.
__________________
[]'s from Ace

Last edited by theacefrehley; 2012-10-19 at 11:24.
theacefrehley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-19, 11:33   Link #30924
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Here's what I have to say about it:

Logistical reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Bribing the police should be pretty difficult.

Thematic reasons to believe pre-incident authorship:
1) Eva, who survives in the real world, dies in both of the bottle-stories.
2) Beatrice is supposed to be dead by all magical accounts.

Logistical reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) Battler's return was predicted.
2) Ange's absence was predicted.
3) The typhoon was predicted.
4) An accident was predicted. (Well, this just means that either the author is the actual culprit, or it was written after the tragedy)

Thematic reasons to believe post-incident authorship:
1) The way I see it, this situation is kind of like a closed room, except it's bound by points in time rather than physical windows and doors. So I see debating whether these logistical conditions allow the author enough time to write... as similar to debating how long the chain is on a closed room and whether it allows someone to lock it or unlock it from the outside. But knowing how Beatrice rolls, the answer has nothing to do with the chain and everything to do with the witnesses: In this case, it's that random fisherman that found the one bottle and the police that released the other.

So yeah, I believe in post-incident authorship. A lot of people here do, though not everyone.
A couple of other points:
  • We don't know how accurate the endscroll is to facts or merely "what we're told happened." In other words, we don't know if "they found Maria's jaw" is a fact or if it means "a number of identifiable teeth were found that match Maria," which could give credence to e.g. "Maria's baby teeth were used to fake her death." Thus, we don't know if being told "a fisherman found one of the bottles" actually means it happened, or if a bottle was introduced which somebody said was found by a fisherman.
  • The works at least appear to be voluminous from the descriptions. If they're only a short summary written in a brief time, then we're getting more text than the message bottles actually had. If they're long works, either they had to have been written with a lot of time to spare ahead of the incident (meaning the author knew a lot of difficult-to-pin-down details well ahead of time), or they were written well after (in which case there is at least a partial hoax going on).
  • If the message bottles were believed to be any sort of clue to the incident, why would the police seem to care so little about them? Eva does die in the stories, but that alone wouldn't be reason to reject something as having no useful clues as to potential premeditation or motive.
  • It is extremely logistically unlikely that any message bottle would ever be found by anybody anywhere, unless dozens were released (we're told at least that Land may have been; how many others were there?). If dozens were released, it becomes harder and harder to buy pre-incident authorship.
  • As Wanderer basically said, it would fit Beatrice's MO more to have the appearance of a message-in-a-bottle confession turn up than to actually do that, especially because there is no guarantee releasing a bunch of bottles will work. Beatrice likes faking miracles with testimony to back it up and relies far less on chance and luck than she claims to. She can't control when the bottles are found either; maybe one will be found a hundred years from now, what good would that be? However, if she fakes it, she can guarantee it will work merely by having sufficiently hard-to-trace stories and a few people willing to lie.
Basically, it's easier to bribe a fisherman and a couple police officers than it is to trust that two message bottles will survive a typhoon and explosion and both be found and published within a few years of the incident, and that the finders will actually try to release them. Given that one group who claims to have found one are the police, it seems quite unlikely they'd release it unless someone could convince them to do so. The only two reasons I can think of for that is that they believe the bottle has absolutely no relevance (which is absurd), or someone was sufficiently able to influence that release.

That, or the bottle being in police custody at all was also a lie.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-19, 14:13   Link #30925
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
I always imagined the bottle message stories were ready for quite some time, in case Battler came back or something. And typhoons are a normal occurrence around there, maybe?
They are. There's a siblings' discussion about how the weather is always bad when they go visiting and how they would like to change the time for the family reunion but apparently nobody had the guts to tell Kinzo this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
And maybe Ange's roles in the stories were so small, Yasu could just erase her name and fill it with whatever, if she wrote it with a pencil. Even if Ange's absence was informed a day or two before the meeting.
I've always thought Ange wasn't in because she argued with Maria and therefore was banned from the golden land or something like that.
As the tales always end with everyone dying and reaching the Golden Land it makes sense she's not included in the cast.
It's also possible that the tales were a lot more vague on the details than what the story we read was, for example making impossible to know when it started raining exactly.

A storm is a typical excuse in horror movies to keep a bunch of people all in a place so it's a common trick to write a story (I even suggested to use it to a friend who was writing a horror story and needed an excuse to trap some people in a place years ago).

Incidentally those two coincidences came true when the Rokkenjima incident took place while it didn't come true the fact that everybody died as Eva survived.

The fact that nobody takes the tales seriously and apparently, apart from checking they weren't written by Maria, they didn't bother to check if they were written by someone else, pushes me to think that, although they gave a definite 'Rokkenjima' feeling the police didn't believe them to be relevant, one way or the other, nor that there was a need to bribe someone into saying they have found such 'irrelevant' tales (irrelevant as they doesn't really help figure out who's the real culprit in Prime as they are considered only by the witch hunters).

The fact they don't seem to push the blame on everyone (Ange doesn't wonder about why they implied person X was the culprit, nor apparently the police or the witch hunters) imply they weren't written to push the suspicions away from the true culprit but the whole point of the tales as presented seem to be to solve Beato's heart or, losely, to figure out the pain Yasu went through when Battler didn't keep his promise as this is the motive for PieceYasu to murder.

Yes, they seem to be an awfully huge amont of things to write but there's people who's famous for speed writing so it's not impossible to write them in the short amount of time prior to the incident.

All this to say... unless Ryukishi will come out and confirm either a theory or another that's not possible to say for sure if the tales were written prior or after the incident.

Everyone embraces the theory he/she likes more as they have both strong and weak points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Why, you think he'd miss that? He does crap all over it in one part of his videos, I don't remember which one.

But be warned, it's shitty as could be, he's using just the LyricalAura's summary. Yep, he goes on and on for about half an hour without even having red the actual stuff
Well, I didn't really have the strength to watch that endless video in a language that's foreign for me so I didn't know he even went and twisted Our Confession to fit to his theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Basically, it's easier to bribe a fisherman and a couple police officers than it is to trust that two message bottles will survive a typhoon and explosion and both be found and published within a few years of the incident, and that the finders will actually try to release them. Given that one group who claims to have found one are the police, it seems quite unlikely they'd release it unless someone could convince them to do so. The only two reasons I can think of for that is that they believe the bottle has absolutely no relevance (which is absurd), or someone was sufficiently able to influence that release.

That, or the bottle being in police custody at all was also a lie.
Or wikileak or a journalist discovered the police had also found a bottle and revealed it and the police didn't deny it because it was pointless to lie over it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Considering that EP7's "motive" might be about the "crime" of writing murder stories - regardless of what Yasu may or may not have done during the conference - we can also just see Battler as the cataclyst for the Witch-Hunter movement (and screwing up the lives of Eva and Ange in the process, causing the death of the latter in EP4). But with this issue (and this red) we're deep in the realm of interpretation so I'm gonna put a big questionmark on this whole approach.
Those interpretations are also possible and interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Hence me just choosing to "believe" into this possibility. The whole Tea Party in EP7 actually reminded me of a certain other VN. "The forest [=will of the author] is forcing all these ridiculous plot twists to reach a predetermined conclusion!" - it's definitely utterly ridiculous even for Umineko how the tea party played out. It's just driving a point home. Do we "believe" in the point, it would've happened even without Battler, even without Beatrice, and is actually not (or barely) related to them at all even in Prime, or that it was just a metaprank for Ange? Take your pick I suppose.

There's another reason why I like to believe in the way Lion's world is structured, despite not having a single basis for of it: Battler didn't come back in Lion's world, where he probably neither had a relationship with Lion akin to the one he had with Shannon nor a promise; he came back in Prime (and thus causing the gameboards). If we want, we could find one conclusion, one message that Ryukishi might've wanted to tell us with EP7-Lion-gameboard layout: Battler remembered in Prime - he came back for Shannon.

Doesn't make it right or true in any form of course, but it's a "kinda happy end" that I can accept. Sadly it's hard to combine this thought with the "Nervous Wreck Battler"-theory (= the one where Battler snaps during the Prime-murder game and is the first one to shoot, hence Eva hiding the truth from Ange and Battler losing his memory when failing to cope with this in any other way) because it takes away all the basis for the murder game to happen in the first place. Still, that theory is a personal favourite of mine as well, kudos to whoever thought of it.
Not quite. The interesting part of Ep 6 is that Battler is organizing a murder game agaisnt Beato as well. And in Ep 5 both Battler and Beato were compared to 2 shy kids who can't find the gut to declare to each other. So what if Battler came back to Shannon but found out she was engaged to George before he could tell her 'hey, I came back for you?'

What if the both of them had the bright idea to organize a murder game, Shannon with the adults as accomplices and Battler with the cousins as accomplice and the two muder games clashed against each other sending everyone into a paranoyd frenzy?


Also, the game in which Battler didn't come back and Yasu didn't play her game and yet everyone died, although might seem cruel, is, in a way, nice, as it clearly states that the murders weren't their responsibility but that they would happen regardless of what they were to do.

It's still horrible as it destroy the hope of a happy ending but, in the real world, there's no chance for it so, at least knowing they weren't to blame and that they merely, at best, provided a setting but weren't the reason behind it, can offer some sort of comfort.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2012-10-19 at 14:33.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 02:20   Link #30926
Wanderer
Goat
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Yes, I'm aware of the red - that's why I said that Nanjo's behaviour in his theory, it's just not... well it is mystery-logic, same as Shkanon. Because the red said so, he doesn't kill. I assumed that KnowNoMore wanted to make the individual stories a bit more realistic (and less dominated by the red) and less bound to such meta-reasons. Guess it's another misconeption I'll have to get rid of.
Ohhhh no. He's all about the red. Alllll about it. To him it's red, then detective's perspective, then whatever makes the most sense to him after that (which is... quite silly at times).

And to be fair, it's really quite hard to make Nanjo not be an accomplice no matter what theory you ascribe to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
But it's not the same thing. In EP5 everyone else was in on it and did their best to hide the corpses from Erika (the detective), plus there kinda were hints of fake deaths all over the place.
Nono, I was thinking you were joking about KnownNoMore's theory for the first twilight of EP5, which I find more... um... silly than his EP1 first twilight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
I always imagined the bottle message stories were ready for quite some time, in case Battler came back or something. And typhoons are a normal occurrence around there, maybe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
They are. There's a siblings' discussion about how the weather is always bad when they go visiting and how they would like to change the time for the family reunion but apparently nobody had the guts to tell Kinzo this.
But we're not just talking about predicting that a typhoon would come during or around the family conference, we're talking about predicting that a typhoon would arrive on the afternoon of the first day of the conference between ~3:30PM and ~5PM. Is that a regular occurrence? In other words, even if we assume a typhoon will come, it's still ridiculous. If you consider the typhoon to last 36 hours, it would affect the conference if it started any time on October 3rd or October 4th, or in the morning of October 5th. That's a 60 hour span. However, the timing of the typhoon's arrival in the story is narrowed down to a 1-2 hour period. If you do the math, the chance of guessing the timing of the typhoon's arrival in that period of time is around 2-3%. And this is if you assume a typhoon even comes at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
And maybe Ange's roles in the stories were so small, Yasu could just erase her name and fill it with whatever, if she wrote it with a pencil. Even if Ange's absence was informed a day or two before the meeting.
That's not easy. It's hard to imagine that Ange would have a role that small because if Ange were there then her family's behavior would be completely different. This would be especially significant given that Battler is the viewpoint character and, as her brother, watching over her would be a central concern of his. And making these changes would be exceedingly difficult; Beatrice wasn't using Microsoft Word.

Basically, these are the kinds of awkward arguments I was talking about before; it's searching for a silly gap in the closed room, like saying maybe the chain was set from the outside or maybe they used small bombs. Sure, maybe it's possible, but it's probably not the right way to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
The fact that nobody takes the tales seriously and apparently, apart from checking they weren't written by Maria, they didn't bother to check if they were written by someone else, pushes me to think that, although they gave a definite 'Rokkenjima' feeling the police didn't believe them to be relevant, one way or the other, nor that there was a need to bribe someone into saying they have found such 'irrelevant' tales (irrelevant as they doesn't really help figure out who's the real culprit in Prime as they are considered only by the witch hunters).
Preposterous. People do not, all on a whim, write stories about the murder of all their friends and family on a certain day, bottle them, and throw them into the ocean... only to have those people to happen to die on that very day for completely unrelated reasons. If it was pre-incident, which the police thought it was (at least as the story goes), then it's an obvious confession by the killer. There's no way that they would think it was anything but eminently relevant, even if they don't understand it well.

And I don't know why you assume the police didn't investigate the writing. If they did, they would do it discretely in the first place. And if we go by your interpretation, since Ootsuki didn't mention it, the Witch Hunters themselves also did not check for other peoples' signatures.
Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 04:29   Link #30927
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1
Not quite. The interesting part of Ep 6 is that Battler is organizing a murder game agaisnt Beato as well. And in Ep 5 both Battler and Beato were compared to 2 shy kids who can't find the gut to declare to each other. So what if Battler came back to Shannon but found out she was engaged to George before he could tell her 'hey, I came back for you?'
I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to with "not quite". Sorry if I misunderstand you in the following.

It's not quite the "happy end" overall, for Yasu. It is for Beatrice, or "her lingering feelings for Battler", as this "part" of her personality feared that he might've all but forgotten about her (EP4). Of course, "Shannon", her current life, the one that loves George, might've felt fear instead and wouldn't know how to react. Emotional conflict, add "Kanon" as the wish for staying on Rokkenjima and nurturing her friendship (and possibly more) with Jessica, that caused her to write down her heart, her confused emotions, down in form of a mystery - the genre that both she and Battler loved so much (whether we know those stories as EP1 and 2 or not at all doesn't matter for this). Possibly hoping romantically that someday someone will find them and "uncover her heart", "understand her" - and maybe that person might be Battler himself.
On that note, had Battler returned a year earlier she wouldn't have been so invested in George that he's about to propose to her and not as confused on how she should react (and she'd probably not write anything). A year later and ... if Lion's world is to be believed... Battler wouldn't have anything to return back to anyway.

(yes, I wrote "she" for convenience sake, add "he" every time if you want to)

Regarding EP6, didn't Battler join the duel, implying that he might've remembered, and hijacked the game to "show that obnoxious guest" (since Shkanontrice participated in Meta and didn't produce her own 1st Twilight I don't see how he organized a game AGAINST/without her)? Meta-world speaking, he clearly remembered, while chick-Beatrice had forgotten all about mystery, games, and such; she just knew that she's supposed to love him (btw. I love how you can find a lot of similarities between BATTLER-Chicktrice and Kinzo-Kuwadoriantrice in the first half of EP6).

If you just meant that "Prime-Battler remembered" in light of his absence in Lion's world could still be connected with "Nervous Wreck Prime-Battler" via two murder games at the same time, then sure - thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Also, the game in which Battler didn't come back and Yasu didn't play her game and yet everyone died, although might seem cruel, is, in a way, nice, as it clearly states that the murders weren't their responsibility but that they would happen regardless of what they were to do.

It's still horrible as it destroy the hope of a happy ending but, in the real world, there's no chance for it so, at least knowing they weren't to blame and that they merely, at best, provided a setting but weren't the reason behind it, can offer some sort of comfort.
Went there before. And you answered
Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
I'm not sure how reliable is Bern's implication that a mess would happen regardless as she finds only 1 world with Lion when theoretically there should be countless.
Change of mind or am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer
Ohhhh no. He's all about the red. Alllll about it. To him it's red, then detective's perspective, then whatever makes the most sense to him after that (which is... quite silly at times).
I don't see how this kind of snoddy narrative with meta-reasons makes it a 'superior' theory then, at best it'd be an alternative (edit: before misunderstandings arise - of course you didn't say that, KnowNoMore and his followers claim this). Oh well, since I'm probably never going to watch it all I won't judge his version of Rosatrice any further.

Wasn't there someone who wanted to propose a Rosatrice-theory as well, a few pages back? Still waiting for the pikablu-theory.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-20 at 05:03.
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 07:28   Link #30928
Kiltias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
It makes sense to me, if we go with the whole chessboard thinking thing. Nearly all really good detective novels have at least one fake culprit or fact that gets taken for granted for most of the story, only to get shattered in the big reveal. More fun for the writer, and more fun for the reader, who's forced to rethink everything they took for granted rather than just saying "oh, I guess that's what it was".

While it's certainly true that most of us didn't suspect that Shannon was the culprit or the heir until very late on, the servants as a whole have been obviously suspicious the whole time. In fact, they're so suspicious, you don't even have to think up explanations for most of the closed rooms, since they depend entirely on testimony from those people.

Even more suspicious than this is the character of Beatrice. We've been outright told that she's the culprit constantly, and the old witch pranks tie her pretty clearly to someone living/working on the island.

This is the biggest problem with Shkanon. It has plenty of details that we might find interesting and/or unexpected, but in the end, "crazy person who was Maria's friend, lives on the island, and has a love of the occult killed everyone for an insane ceremony" is the most obvious answer early on in EP1, and remains the most obvious answer throughout the whole series.


Remember the EP3 Ryuukishi, who gave us a half-dozen plot twists in the last few chapters of each game? I find it hard to believe that game's biggest twist is supposed to be which one of the servants was actually the ringleader.
Until Yasu was revealed to be part of the family thus not an actual servant one could say Ryukishi actually followed a stereotypical result.
Ever heard of "The Butler did it?"
Quote:
The stereotypical example is that a bunch of people are invited to a dinner in a wealthy man's house, and the wealthy man is poisoned while they are all eating dinner. All the guests debate who among them is the killer, only to discover at the end of the story that the killer is the butler, whom nobody bothered to think twice about; he's just part of the furniture, as if the table was the culprit.

The butler is the avatar of the most unlikely suspect that, of course, turns out to be guilty because the author wasn't creative enough to come up with a better way to surprise the reader. It's the mystery writer equivalent of the Ass Pull, except that you can see it coming a mile away, making it, for modern readers, The Untwist. Ironically because this trope is so well known, when an 'actual' butler is involved he rarely 'did it' or when he did it is down as a parody and Played for Laughs.

The expression "The butler did it" was probably coined by novelist Mary Roberts Rinehart, although it's likely to be a real-world example of Beam Me Up, Scotty!. The earliest verified explicit statement of disapproval dates to S.S. Van Dine's 1928 essay "Twenty Rules for Writing Detective Stories" (it might be noted that these rules would disqualify the authors who defined the genre, including Wilkie Collins, Edgar Allan Poe, and Arthur Conan Doyle). This article explores in detail the origin of this strange semi-existent trope.

It is okay, however, for a butler to be a suspect, primarily to mislead the reader.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...TheButlerDidIt

Hence how Umineko is even mentioned.

I'm thinking Yasu is true, just that there is something else.Though I'm awaiting a pm to answer a question regarding Van Dine.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-20 at 08:16.
Kiltias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 11:08   Link #30929
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
But we're not just talking about predicting that a typhoon would come during or around the family conference, we're talking about predicting that a typhoon would arrive on the afternoon of the first day of the conference between ~3:30PM and ~5PM. Is that a regular occurrence?
I hate to quote myself but:

Quote:
It's also possible that the tales were a lot more vague on the details than what the story we read was, for example making impossible to know when it started raining exactly.
The message in the bottle might simply say that 'due to the bad weather the boat could not came' and focus on other details.

Anyway I find rather pointless to discuss about this sort of details when we haven't read the original message in the bottle and we can't even be sure if it at least matches the plot of EP 1 and I seem to remember we already had this discussion and agree to disagree, didn't we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Preposterous. People do not, all on a whim, write stories about the murder of all their friends and family on a certain day, bottle them, and throw them into the ocean... only to have those people to happen to die on that very day for completely unrelated reasons. If it was pre-incident, which the police thought it was (at least as the story goes), then it's an obvious confession by the killer. There's no way that they would think it was anything but eminently relevant, even if they don't understand it well.
We know Yasu didn't write all of a whim but because she liked mysteries and wanted someone to solve the ones she wrote.
Also if I write a mystery tale in which my family get mysteriously slaughtered because I like to write mysteries and in writing 101 is written that for amateur is best start writing what they know best, this won't insure me my family will never be slaughtered, not even in the real world.

It would make it a very odd coincidence, a suspicious coincidence even, but let's face it, coincidences happens, even way more unbelievable ones. Personally I find much more absurd the tale we get for Kinzo gaining the gold than Yasu dropping a bunch of tales prior to the incident.

Add to this that this sort of coincidence happened in more than 1 mystery tale so, even if in real life it's, to use Kinzo's words, more similar to a miracle than anything else, in the mystery books world, it has a lot more chances of happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And I don't know why you assume the police didn't investigate the writing. If they did, they would do it discretely in the first place. And if we go by your interpretation, since Ootsuki didn't mention it, the Witch Hunters themselves also did not check for other peoples' signatures.
If they investigated it, it never came up it belonged to Shannon/Kanon. We're told that more or less all the siblings got suspected but there's no servant culprit theory.
And it's possible the witch hunters didn't check/didn't manage to check it properly as it could be more troublesome for them to have samples of Yasu's writing, especially because the witch hunter movement didn't start immediately but later and, by then, surviving scraps of Yasu's writings that the public could reach might have been destroyed or archivied and being unreachable.

It's the message in the bottles and Eva selling Kinzo's library that 'gave life' to the witch hunter, not just the incident per se so they started late compared to the police and they might not have all the resources and experts the police could use.

How many of them were allowed to go to Rokkenjima? To see the original messages? To see samples of all the people involved's writing?

Ootsuki was capable to recognize Yasu's handwriting on the diary as the one of the messages in the bottle and was surprised by it even if he, apparently, was knowledgeable about the messages.
It shouldn't have come as a surprise if the writer had been identified as Shannon because Ange, as a person involved, could have owned without problems someone that had been written by Shannon.

Also

Quote:
the Rokkenjima Witch Hunt is the name of group of enthusiasts who try to explain the truth of that crime from an occult perspective. Discussion of the mysteries that surround Rokkenjima, from the Ushiromiya Library to the mysterious two day period to the legend of the Golden Witch, is flourishing even today among enthusiasts.
so they have all the interest into assuming it was written by 'Beatrice' without trying to prove it was written by 'person X'.

But really, we already have this discussion and neither of us managed to persuade the other and I doubt one of us will do it now as the argumentations you proposed and that I can propose are exactly the same so let's re-agree to disagree?

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to with "not quite".
The idea is: even if Battler came back for Shannon things could have gone the wrong way because he didn't immediately came out and plainly admitted it.

So he might have done something that caused him to perceive himself as guilty of the whole mess.

So just Battler coming back for Shannon didn't automatically destroy any "Nervous Wreck Battler"-theory or any possibility that Battler did something that caused someone else to snap and kill people.

Think if something that was a mix of Ep 5 & 6 happened. Yasu bribes one of the adults into taking part to a mystery game for Battler with the promise his son/daughter will be spared. Battler persuades the cousins to take part to a mystery game for Shannon just for the fun of it. Incidentally cousin X, who agrees to play the role of the victim, is also the son/daughter of the adult bribed who think the blackmailer broke his promise and snap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
It's not quite the "happy end" overall, for Yasu. It is for Beatrice, or "her lingering feelings for Battler", as this "part" of her personality feared that he might've all but forgotten about her (EP4). Of course, "Shannon", her current life, the one that loves George, might've felt fear instead and wouldn't know how to react.
Ep 6 implied that Yasu had already come to a solution between Shannon and Kanon and that, despite this, the lingering feelings for Battler, were so strong that Beatrice still prevailed, even if she should have been destroyed along with Kanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
On that note, had Battler returned a year earlier she wouldn't have been so invested in George that he's about to propose to her and not as confused on how she should react (and she'd probably not write anything). A year later and ... if Lion's world is to be believed... Battler wouldn't have anything to return back to anyway.

(yes, I wrote "she" for convenience sake, add "he" every time if you want to)
I prefer to consider Yasu a 'she' as well, though not everyone agrees so sometimes I give her double pronouns.

I guess the real problem in Prime wasn't Yasu but the adults' business troubles. Ryukishi implied in the interview that we can guess that it was the adults who did something. By this is possible to assume that, even if Yasu had challenged Battler to her game a year earlier the result would have been tamer than the one we had in that year when they were in really BIG financial troubles (actually we'll never know, there's plenty of things that could have gone wrong anyway).

Of course it could be that Clair merely meant what you said and didn't care about Prime at all. After all EP 7 deals with the culprit on the gameboards not on the one in Prime and on the gameboards the adults' will is meaningless. There's only Yasu/Beato's will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Regarding EP6, didn't Battler join the duel, implying that he might've remembered, and hijacked the game to "show that obnoxious guest" (since Shkanontrice participated in Meta and didn't produce her own 1st Twilight I don't see how he organized a game AGAINST/without her)?
A theory is that Battler played the game with Erika aiming for her to create a logic error that Beato would have to solve, pushing her to remember.
So, while pretending to play with Erika, he was actually 'playing' with Beato the way Beato played with him, using the game to make him remember.
Only he went at it in a different way, using himself as a bait while Beato used the lives of his family (Battler was sure solving the game he would save his family).

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
If you just meant that "Prime-Battler remembered" in light of his absence in Lion's world could still be connected with "Nervous Wreck Prime-Battler" via two murder games at the same time, then sure - thanks.
Yup, that was it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Change of mind or am I missing something?
The idea is that theoretically there should have been dozens of Lion as you can vary dosens of things producing bilions of different worlds in which Lion existed, from Natsuhi accepted the baby to Natsuhi didn't accept the baby but slipped and she was the one who fell from the cliff to the baby fell but survived and Genji returned it to Kinzo instead than hiding it and many, many more.

Plus the many variations in Lion's world like Battler's mom didn't die so he didn't leave the family.

There should really be endless fragments with Lion, not just 1.

That's why it's weird Bern found just 1 and in this one coincidentally everything ended badly. If she had told, I found millions of worlds with Lion but I couldn't find 1 with a happy ending for him I would have believed her but if she says there's just 1 Lion... I end up thinking she hadn't searched hard enough... or that she had purposely searched a world that could fit in the Rokkenjima box, in short a world that had to end in a mysterious tragedy.

Which ironically would means that Lion has only 1 chance in a million to end up in a tragedy... only no one considers them because they are unrelated to the mystery at hand making them 'nonexistant'.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 14:10   Link #30930
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...TheButlerDidIt

Hence how Umineko is even mentioned.
Reminds me of that quote that someone dug up from before Umineko was first released. That it's a parody, a mystery that veterans would laugh at and immediately solve.

... 10 minutes after starting to look for the quote I still haven't found it. *sigh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
A theory is that Battler played the game with Erika aiming for her to create a logic error that Beato would have to solve, pushing her to remember.
So, while pretending to play with Erika, he was actually 'playing' with Beato the way Beato played with him, using the game to make him remember.
Only he went at it in a different way, using himself as a bait while Beato used the lives of his family (Battler was sure solving the game he would save his family).
Alright, then it was just a semantic issue between us. Yes, sure, he 'challenged' her, but I didn't view them as 'opponents'. To me it seemed more like an adult trying to help a child understand something, giving it a 'challenging' problem to solve so to speak. But the jump between 'challenging someone' and 'opposing' isn't too big I suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Ep 6 implied that Yasu had already come to a solution between Shannon and Kanon and that, despite this, the lingering feelings for Battler, were so strong that Beatrice still prevailed, even if she should have been destroyed along with Kanon.
We could actually assume that this "duel" happens every time. Shannon was the first to go in EP1 after all, in EP3 both lose at the start, ...

Very interesting read for latter: EP2, Meta-Scene in Natsuhi's Room - you can read this scene as Beatrice accusing Shannon that she just wanted to fulfill her sexual desires instead of prevailing and waiting for her "true love" to come back. And the result... Will: "Nobody would argue that a coffin is a closed room."

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
The idea is that theoretically there should have been dozens of Lion as you can vary dosens of things producing bilions of different worlds in which Lion existed,
Heck, maybe there is a world where the whole backstory about the gold makes sense. What would the odds for that one be?

That approach bears the very question of who the author of Reqiuem is. For Lion's world to say anything relevant to prime Tohya would need to be the one. Considering the end of that story however that seems unlikely (ah well, I'll still believe in the possible implications even though I basically denied them myself in this very moment, talk about seeing it with love and all). Unless someone else writes more stories about Lion it simply won't be possible to find a written account on them, even if a search engine like Bernoogle looks for it. However, since goats are only interested in the mystery anyway, you'd be correct of course.

edit: Maybe I can still save my beliefs. Yes. Everyone, take your hands and chant. Of course it's possible Tohya wrote EP7 but not the TP (+ Lion's bad ending), since "there is no game-master". Heck yeah, arguing without any basis, disregard this please.


edit2: Can't ever edit enough but I forgot this one last time already - "Meta-Battler's retroactive red killing" works for most episodes... except for 4. He confirms their deaths without demanding red or forcing their death in meta. So consider this idea failed.


If I had more faith in my writing abilities (in english to boot) I'd actually try my hand at a "Battler remembers" + "Nervous Wreck Battler" forgery in accordance to the known results of Prime (2 survivors: Eva, Battler). Don't think I'll get around to it very soon (if at all) though. Having two murder games actually solves the biggest issue I had before when trying to think up a "Nervous Wreck Battler" story - how to cause the actual chaos after Battler snaps.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-10-20 at 15:19.
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 14:16   Link #30931
Kiltias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Reminds me of that quote that someone dug up from before Umineko was first released. That it's a parody, a mystery that veterans would laugh at and immediately solve.

... 10 minutes after starting to look for the quote I still haven't found it. *sigh*
Seriously!?XDDDD
Kiltias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 14:41   Link #30932
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Found it, though my memory had been incorrect in many forms and curves - apparently it's from "Our Confessions", so AFTER the official series was done (haven't read it yet so I hope my blunder may be excused):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym
Also, this bit :
What a simple and cheap mystery.
Probably, for those people who love to read the mystery novels that I have boundless respect for, they'll see right through it with a big laugh.
To witness demons, even with a brazen display of fantasy as "proof", is to mystery the height of satire; it will no doubt get laughs.


I dunno why, but it feels like my respect for the whole series just got a boost
Of course, it's referring to the "magic" (again, my mistake), even though you could bend the parody-aspect to 'the butler did it' as well. If you want to...

*sigh*... pretend I didn't say anything about this, okay?
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 15:23   Link #30933
Kiltias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Wow, I don't know that much about mystery novels but I can't even imagine how one is supposed to be more complicated and challenging than Umineko.

I remember this:
Spoiler for Layered Worlds.:
Kiltias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 16:04   Link #30934
Captain Bluebeard
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Nono, I was thinking you were joking about KnownNoMore's theory for the first twilight of EP5, which I find more... um... silly than his EP1 first twilight.
Whoops, sorry, my bad then, I thought you were being sarcastic.

Hmm... I don't remember his EP5 first twilight (I love myself too much to put it through all NINE FREAKIN' HOURS of that guy), care to give me the brief version?
__________________

It's tough to be blue...
Captain Bluebeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 17:10   Link #30935
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Heh, well, as even the TV Tropes article states, the "Butler did it" solution is a pretty ironic example of something that was never a real cliche to begin with, since apparently relatively few mysteries were solved with servant culprits.

Anyways, Umineko certainly is complicated ... mostly owing to it's very, um, post-modern nature. The mysteries themselves aren't very difficult at all, though. Assuming we're talking about the gameboards, anyway. Acknowledging that this sounds terribly arrogant but, I'm not at all a veteran of the genre, but my theories for EP1 and 2 were pretty much spot on. I was only missing a reasonable motive, which wasn't even hinted until EP3, and arguably doesn't exist at all.

In other news, reeeally wish Knownomore would invest the time in a truncated transcript. He doesn't even really have to solve EP5, does he? There isn't much of a mystery to account for, and he probably uses those parlor scenes as a stake against Shkanon, wham bam.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 17:16   Link #30936
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Alright, then it was just a semantic issue between us. Yes, sure, he 'challenged' her, but I didn't view them as 'opponents'. To me it seemed more like an adult trying to help a child understand something, giving it a 'challenging' problem to solve so to speak. But the jump between 'challenging someone' and 'opposing' isn't too big I suppose.
Yes, in the end Battler had a gentler approach even if in the beginning he wasn't exactly kind to Beato.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
We could actually assume that this "duel" happens every time. Shannon was the first to go in EP1 after all, in EP3 both lose at the start, ...
Yes, but, apart from EP 6 Kanon is always more unsure and reluctant than Shannon even if he technically has the advantage of being with Jessica much more than Shannon so I think, unless they were given much more time or something were to change, if Battler doesn't do something, is Shannon the one that wins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Very interesting read for latter: EP2, Meta-Scene in Natsuhi's Room - you can read this scene as Beatrice accusing Shannon that she just wanted to fulfill her sexual desires instead of prevailing and waiting for her "true love" to come back. And the result... Will: "Nobody would argue that a coffin is a closed room."
It's a very interesting interpretation and this make interesting Shannon's answer about wanting to have the fulfillment of at least hearing she was loved. In the same way Beato also played on Yasu's fears, telling Shannon that men are interested only in a woman's body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
That approach bears the very question of who the author of Reqiuem is. For Lion's world to say anything relevant to prime Tohya would need to be the one. Considering the end of that story however that seems unlikely (ah well, I'll still believe in the possible implications even though I basically denied them myself in this very moment, talk about seeing it with love and all). Unless someone else writes more stories about Lion it simply won't be possible to find a written account on them, even if a search engine like Bernoogle looks for it. However, since goats are only interested in the mystery anyway, you'd be correct of course.
A favourite theory of mine is that Ep 7 represents Battler who solved the game and learnt the truth from Yasu (there are facts that it would be difficult to guess without Yasu confessing them).

As I'm among the Ikuko=Yasu believers I like for it to also represent the fact that it was Toya to be more exact who solved again the game which is why in the whole Umineko we have Battler who remembered and solved it and then Will, an outsider, who solved it (Toya doesn't think to himself as Battler anymore).

Of course it's possible that both Toya and Battler solved it but the Yasu part doesn't come from Ikuko but by Battler's memories of what Yasu told him.

The Tea Party though represent the new theory who's taking shape among the witch hunters, in short the Rudolf&Kyrie culprit theory, which is what is tearing apart Ange (which in fact get destroyed after the 'play').
Clair doll-like state might represent how people are 'using her' to tell this culprit theory. In short it wasn't her will that made her tell that story but someone else's.

Lion's 'death' is both nice and not nice as I said before. It 'proves' it wasn't Battler or Beato's fault if people die but, at teh same time, support the Kyrie&Rudolf culprit theory.

Will's attempt to resque Lion might represent Toya refusing to abandon himself to the idea that the tragedy was unavoidable due to the grown up malice (in short he denies that, if Lion's fate is to die, it wouldn't be due to the grown up killing him).

In a way his attempt to save Lion mirrors Battler's attempt to escape with Beato, only it's more dramatic. Either way no couple will reach the real world.

It's all very metaphoric though and mine is only one of the many possible interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
edit: Maybe I can still save my beliefs. Yes. Everyone, take your hands and chant. Of course it's possible Tohya wrote EP7 but not the TP (+ Lion's bad ending), since "there is no game-master". Heck yeah, arguing without any basis, disregard this please.
Well, it's more or less what I also think as you could read (I really should read the whole message before start replying to it... ^_^;;

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
If I had more faith in my writing abilities (in english to boot) I'd actually try my hand at a "Battler remembers" + "Nervous Wreck Battler" forgery in accordance to the known results of Prime (2 survivors: Eva, Battler). Don't think I'll get around to it very soon (if at all) though. Having two murder games actually solves the biggest issue I had before when trying to think up a "Nervous Wreck Battler" story - how to cause the actual chaos after Battler snaps.
On a general line I tend to think it was the adults who snapped and not Battler, though he too is a possibility.
However Prime is well closed in Ryukishi's catbox so all the speculations over it are fair game.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 18:37   Link #30937
chronotrig
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
I'm thinking Yasu is true, just that there is something else.Though I'm awaiting a pm to answer a question regarding Van Dine.
The problem is combining EP7 with any theory without Yasu as the sole culprit.

One thing seems pretty solid though. If anyone killed on that day outside of Yasu's orders, then that person must have hoped to make Yasu take the blame for their crimes. Whether they were planning any murders before Maria got that first letter or not, it's hard to imagine that they would miss this chance to blame these crimes on Yasu, especially after the FTs that always leave "Maria's Beatrice" as the most suspicious person.
__________________
"The only moral it is possible to draw from this story is that one should never throw the letter 'q' into a privet bush. But, unfortunately, there are times when it is unavoidable."
--Hitchhikers


www.witch-hunt.com Theory page
chronotrig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 19:19   Link #30938
Kiltias
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The problem is combining EP7 with any theory without Yasu as the sole culprit.

Because IMO we are supposed to see it that way.

I have no doubts Yasu is true but the Cheese Riddle is THE perfect indication that something is wrong with the this answer.

"Kihihihihihi, I know the answer.It's written right here, kihihihihihi."
"You didn't know the answer until you looked, right Battler-kun?*get it?Battler-kun?"

"It's impossible to cut the cheese with anything except the knife, right?
The knife can only cut in a straight line, right?
There aren't any other rules right?"
"uu- not really"

"Puzzles without specified rules-in other words, all things not covered by the red truth, are left to the observers interpretation.It's the most basic of methods for constructing gaps in the witch's closed room."


Jessica mentions there can only be 1 answer and it being impossible to reach something else than 3.
Battler got 1.

The others ridicule battler for thinking of an answer apart for the obvious one which I point to my first sentence of the answer being written in the book by the ones who made it.

Battler came up with his conclusion because he thought the obvious answer was too easy to be a puzzle.
Theres even the quote that:
"These are usually set up so that a number smaller than you expect is the answer."

In the book the answer is said to be 3.
"Battlers answer is smaller than in the book is he correct?"
"Yes he is.....battler-san is correct the answer is 1.

"A mistake by the ones who made the book.I imagine there's a picture of a flat cylinder there in Marias book"
"uuu- there is.Right here."
The flat cylinder is the proof that the answer in the book was wrong thus the ones who made it placed a mistake not being the actual answer yet still an answer but not THE one.
Erika even points out that Battler is correct in both brains and cheese.
And Kyrie:
"It never mentioned how flexible it was"

Interestingly, George knew the actual result cause he said:
"I know this one.So I'll stay quite."

Battler got the actual result by thinking its too easy and overthinking while Erika knew BOTH answers and simply thought of the mistake made by the ones who made it.


As in:
Don't rely on the answer in the book, use your own interpretation to think of the actual answer.The only rule is the red truth.

Like said:
I believe Yasu is true, but there is another force at play except her, one that is the actual truth.
Might refer to Kyrie and Rudolf.
Perhaps Yasu planned to do carry out the killings but the two took matters into their own hands in order to grab the gold.
Battler might have been their accomplice but Yasu converted him which is how he escaped from the Island.

Didn't Battler disappear when he was supposed to meet with Rudolf at the chapel?
Perhaps thats when he escaped.

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-10-20 at 19:34.
Kiltias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 20:01   Link #30939
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The problem is combining EP7 with any theory without Yasu as the sole culprit.

One thing seems pretty solid though. If anyone killed on that day outside of Yasu's orders, then that person must have hoped to make Yasu take the blame for their crimes. Whether they were planning any murders before Maria got that first letter or not, it's hard to imagine that they would miss this chance to blame these crimes on Yasu, especially after the FTs that always leave "Maria's Beatrice" as the most suspicious person.
All Episode 7 really means is that Yasu is the culprit of the Gameboards. Even EP7 itself posits that she's not the culprit of the real world.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-20, 21:30   Link #30940
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Jessica mentions there can only be 1 answer and it being impossible to reach something else than 3.
Battler got 1.

The others ridicule battler for thinking of an answer apart for the obvious one which I point to my first sentence of the answer being written in the book by the ones who made it.

Battler came up with his conclusion because he thought the obvious answer was too easy to be a puzzle.
Theres even the quote that:
"These are usually set up so that a number smaller than you expect is the answer."

In the book the answer is said to be 3.
"Battlers answer is smaller than in the book is he correct?"
"Yes he is.....battler-san is correct the answer is 1.

"A mistake by the ones who made the book.I imagine there's a picture of a flat cylinder there in Marias book"
"uuu- there is.Right here."
The flat cylinder is the proof that the answer in the book was wrong thus the ones who made it placed a mistake not being the actual answer yet still an answer but not THE one.
Erika even points out that Battler is correct in both brains and cheese.
And Kyrie:
"It never mentioned how flexible it was"

Interestingly, George knew the actual result cause he said:
"I know this one.So I'll stay quite."

Battler got the actual result by thinking its too easy and overthinking while Erika knew BOTH answers and simply thought of the mistake made by the ones who made it.


As in:
Don't rely on the answer in the book, use your own interpretation to think of the actual answer.The only rule is the red truth.
Actually the problem isn't that Battler got the right answer, the problem is the author of the book made a mistake.
The number he wanted the readers to reach was 3. That was the correct answer to his puzzle but he explained his puzzle poorly giving space to an alternative solution.

If we want it's a warning to what will happen later when Erika will trap Battler in the room sealing even the chain because the duck tape's lenght wasn't strickly fixed but vaguely stated as 'enough to seal 3 rooms' and she stretched the interpretation so that she had enough to seal 3 rooms not just by sealing the doors but also by using it to repair the chain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Like said:
I believe Yasu is true, but there is another force at play except her, one that is the actual truth.
Might refer to Kyrie and Rudolf.
Perhaps Yasu planned to do carry out the killings but the two took matters into their own hands in order to grab the gold.
Battler might have been their accomplice but Yasu converted him which is how he escaped from the Island.

Didn't Battler disappear when he was supposed to meet with Rudolf at the chapel?
Perhaps thats when he escaped.
Well, it's clearly implied in Prime it wasn't Yasu who did the killing so the incident is surely someone else's job.

The problem is that on the gameboard for Ep 1-5 is clearly Yasu.
Ep 6 points at Erika so unless someone will manage to make a theory that say that Erika is another Yasu's persona, I'll say she was the murderer and that, at best, Yasu got anticipated by her.

But, even though I think it would be interesting if Yasu and Erika were the same person, I doubt someone can find a way for it to work...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:36.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.