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Old 2012-10-21, 07:27   Link #581
mechalord
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I don't think it's like that. The library didn't say anything about marriage. I think they just have sex a lot in a casual manner. In fact, since they do genetic manipulation with their population it's likely they reproduce by artificial means (cloning?). In that case it's highly possible sex and marriage are pretty dissociated concepts.

It just goes to show how different their culture is from ours.
The main character has a mother and father. They live in their own house. They seem to be married.

It looks like they genetically modified a few and then have been selectively breeding since then. They kids who don't show the right behavior are killed off before they can breed.

I don't know about casual sex. It seems like the library said they tried that and then decided to go in the wolf direction. Library said it wasn't enough, didn't work so they turned to the self restraint of wolves.

Adult wolves are known for sexual self restraint and strict social order. In a wolf pack only the alpha male and female breed and they do this once a year. The rest of the pack is not allowed to breed unless they leave to form their own packs. They went for discipline instead of promiscuous sexual stress relief.

The society seems very hierarchical and obsessed with self restraint. The taming of fire ritual... seems like a ritual meant to suppress lust and desire. A big emphasis is put on group cooperation... in the way wolves hunt... the whole point to the stone sphere game.
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Old 2012-10-21, 07:51   Link #582
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
The main character has a mother and father. They live in their own house. They seem to be married.
I never said marriage doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
It looks like they genetically modified a few and then have been selectively breeding since then.
They never said anything about selectively breeding, just genetic manipulation. My point stands.

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I don't know about casual sex. It seems like the library said they tried that and then decided to go in the wolf direction. Library said it wasn't enough, didn't work so they turned to the self restraint of wolves.
It didn't say that it didn't work. It said it wasn't enough. So it doesn't mean the bonobo thing was scrapped. Rather, they just added other preventive measures on top of it (like the genetic manipulation thing). The wolves' restrain refers to aggressive behavior against members of their own community, not sex. They still have sex like monkeys (literally). They implied that much at the very least.
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:11   Link #583
mechalord
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I never said marriage doesn't exist.



They never said anything about selectively breeding, just genetic manipulation. My point stands.



It didn't say it didn't work. It said it wasn't enough. So it doesn't mean the bonobo thing was scrapped. Rather, they added other preventive measures on top of it (like the genetic manipulation thing). The wolves' restrain refers to aggressive behavior against members of their own community, not sex. They probably still sex like monkeys (literally).
Wolves and bonobos are opposite ends of the spectrum. Wolves do show aggressive behavior towards their own, they scrap with each other and they pick on the omega. Bonobos deal with aggression against each other by having sex. Wolves deal with aggression by having a strict hierarchical order and physical punishment and violence.

In this PK society there are leader, subordinates, a strict system... dominated by the clergy and a council. The kids got their PK sealed and were being transported to the temple by a priest for... punishment.

As for selective breeding, it's implied. Kids deemed to be predisposed to violence are removed from society according to the library. This is domesticated animals are bred for a docile temperament... only the docile ones are allowed to survive and breed.


Remember, PK users tended to be sociopathic, hedonistic, self indulging, selfish,etc. The first PK abuser in Japan raped 19 women and killed 17. PK users went on to enslave a large chunk of humanity and live their lives without moral constraints and doing whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted.

It seems the bonobo thing was an attempt to suppress the desire for violence with the distraction of casual sex and it failed.
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:28   Link #584
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about the bonobo thing it not exactly failed just not effective enough, in saki flashack there are many case of skinship which reminiscent to bonobo...
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:31   Link #585
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
As for selective breeding, it's implied. Kids deemed to be predisposed to violence are removed from society according to the library. This is domesticated animals are bred for a docile temperament... only the docile ones are allowed to survive and breed.
Their upbringing is carefully controlled, yes. But I don't think they could avoid genetic mutation if they reproduced naturally. In order to preserve their genetic modifications and prevent their power to evolve unpredictably (like it did in the past) they would have to resort to cloning or some carefully monitored in vitro fertilization.

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It seems the bonobo thing was an attempt to suppress the desire for violence with the distraction of casual sex and it failed.
Again, they didn't said it failed. They said it wasn't enough, which is not the same. Besides Saki's reaction when the library mentioned this "sexual play" stuff was pretty telling.
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:34   Link #586
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Another good question...what is the purpose of letting telekinesis users live at all? If you can be hypnotized to think your Cantus doesn't exist, why didn't the scientists simply genetically engineer humans to lose their PK, instead of just giving them the feedback?
Well I guess it is in the scientist's nature. I've never heard of scientists willingly erasing a new discovery or invention because it was dangerous. Not that they tried to erase or stop studying nuclear weapons "just because" they were too dangerous. Here they did the same thing, they studied a way to deal with them, to handle them. For which purpose is still unknown or not real important.
Anyways I really liked the scientific approach they used to educate and restrain PKer behaviors.
They used educational approaches like feeding them with culture and "peculiar" social behaviors and moral code. Another counter-measure taken is growing them into a glass case to avoid any stressful or negative feelings, that apparently would/could increase their PK abilities.
Along with these educational/indirect methods they used more severe, direct and definitive methods, they has been using the same educational system as a skimming method for the unsuited PKers and genetic engineering to give them this death feedback disease.

Talking about moral code, apparently sex seems to have lost any significance in relation to interpersonal relationships, I'm saying apparently, because this part of the infodump was a bit unclear, if it was the case, why did Saki feel so awkward, to say the least, recollecting those skinship scenes? Here is probably where the hypnosis factor comes in action, inducing altered sexual behaviors (and many other's but let's focus on that for now) to reproduce the bonobo's stress-reliving ones.

This kind of artificial environment suggests that not every PKer will know the whole truth later, but only who has the "right" mind, namely, observing our group, Shun would be/have been the most qualified bearing the truth and becoming a priest or whoever is delegated in keep this environment under control.

Instead another moral code point disregard seems to be part of their actual society (PK society), killing people, whoever they are, seems to be accepted. Pk environment eliminates PKer and queerat with no apparent differentiation. That even if we consider as a possibility that queerats are normal people instead of some strange animals.

Now, on a side note I don't think Saki and Satoru will have sex or physical intimacy in the next episode, first because the situation they are in even if distressing is a bit too dynamic, being chased by queerats, to lead to that kind of outcome. Secondarily because narrative-wise this would kill any future sexual tension viewers would get from Saki/Shun or Saki/Maria or Saki/Satoru. Thirdly, as I just said, I think that sexual behavior is less natural than it seems so it would put Satoru in a bad light (if that was the case).
If I had to guess the next episode will show that Satoru is ready to kill some queerat against Saki will that has already mentioned how they are not the real enemy. And in the meanwhile they will go furthering Saki/Satoru relationship. Relationship that, to go back to a previous post of mine, looks more adequate to their age (keep arguing each other) than Saki/Shun that seemed to me more mature. So, even if it was explained and pointed out that they are more mature than a normal 12yo kid I still feel a sort of awkwardness toward their adult-like behavior because it seems to be the result of their captivity and not of a free will, if you let me pass this term.
But even having said all that, and here my forth point, I hope they won't go there because I prefer the Saki/Shun couple
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:34   Link #587
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@Kazu/mechalord: Guys, I think you are really stretching it by basing whole theories on one fleeting scene (probably replacing the original content with something more digestable), without supporting it with others or the narration.

By the way, have I missed something... who was the bearded old geezer that Saki was subconsciously torturing, until she had her suicide killswitch triggered?

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Also I don't get where did this "madonna" come from

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Finally, I guess Sogo Masashi's problem has already manifested (remember GantZ) Hopefully, things will drift away from "intimate" relationships so his inability of adapting this sort of material, won't ruin the anime.
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:43   Link #588
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Also I don't get where did this "madonna" come from

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When someone with powers harms a human, "death feedback" is activated. So, when the library is damaged by someone with powers, it projects a human image (the "madonna") to induce "death feedback" on whoever attacked it.

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By the way, have I missed something... who was the bearded old geezer that Saki was subconsciously torturing, until she had her suicide killswitch triggered?

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It seems the monk harmed himself with that nife, but he told Saki that she was hurting him. Saki probably got confused by this, somehow believing what he said, and "death feedback" was activated on her.
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Old 2012-10-21, 08:45   Link #589
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
@Kazu/mechalord: Guys, I think you are really stretching it by basing whole theories on one fleeting scene, without supporting it with others or the narration.

By the way, have I missed something... who was the bearded old geezer that Saki was subconsciously torturing, until she had her suicide killswitch triggered?

Images
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Also I don't get where did this "madonna" come from

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the bearded old geezer is the head priest, to test if saki had the death feedback on/off switch "installed" properly...

the "madonna" is a holographic representation of human, the library must have another method of protection against cantus which is this method, as we know cantus user has something called death feedback if they use violence against human..

but how to know the one they use it against is human?? i guess one way is by using five sense as input in this case it's visual so even if the library only some organic computer if they "fool" the sense to think that it's human at just for a little bit of time the death feedback will activate and that's it... that's my theory considering the priest death feedback is triggered...

so, what do you guys think?


but what i don't get is the querrats? what is the vision? saki said they are not the true enemy...so is the querrats being controlled?thus causing illusion of woman with scythe which if my theory is correct causing the priest death feedback even further triggered...
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Old 2012-10-21, 09:18   Link #590
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We know kids are disappearing but we don't know just exactly how they are being 'disposed' of. So I was thinking maybe the bakenezumi are what they transform the kids into and use them as slave labour working in the towns. So the bakenezumi they've met might be a rebel faction that is fighting back against the society that transformed them into monsters. Which could make them Saki and the others' allies in the future. I also thought the death trigger was activated by killing bakenezumi, maybe the priest knows they used to be kids. Just a theory.
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Old 2012-10-21, 09:33   Link #591
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but what i don't get is the querrats? what is the vision? saki said they are not the true enemy...so is the querrats being controlled?thus causing illusion of woman with scythe which if my theory is correct causing the priest death feedback even further triggered...
I'm wondering about that too, following these hints the death feedback is triggered by the will of hurting humans and not actually by hurting them. That means that if you believe you are hurting a human the disease will be triggered.
Now, since the priest should know quite everything, he should know if the queerats are humans or not, so why did he feel sick as he felt after killing the library device? This kinda goes against the queerats being humans, or better, the priest death feedback effect isn't an evidence anymore.
Or it simply shows how the priest felt guilty even if he was fulfilling his duty (and even knowing that neither the library or the queerats were humans). It is slightly different from just believing it, but the former case wouldn't fit very well with the priest reaction, the latter instead would fit and, as a "side effect", it would involve your personal ethic. I mean, hurting humans is something wrong that should trigger the disease, hurting non human beings shouldn't. But depending on how you feel hurting non human beings could trigger the disease anyways. Not a big difference, but narrative wise it would be a nice way given to us to judge the character's natures.

Anyways, since the PKer environment seems to be under a strict mind control, and given the scientific approach we have seen so far, I still think that most of animal forms we have seen so far are hallucinations given by this kind of altered reality.
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Old 2012-10-21, 09:38   Link #592
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the library could have give us more info, but that monk burned it...

so the village is like a big lab of breeding the PKs and experimenting on how to control them?

the rats may be the new source of info provider to Saki and gang

oh eps 4 is good as well
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Old 2012-10-21, 09:57   Link #593
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Where did all the scientists go...there seem to be zero normal humans left...Unless the scientists themselves are PK users. Don't tell me even they have devolved into religious dogma spouting lunatics...


Bakenezumi really seem to be remnants of humanity now. Else they would not have triggered the feedback.


I can't believe how psychopaths can be allowed to run wild....logically shouldn't there be other PK users to stop them? Psychopathy doesn't seem to be a trait common to PKers...unless Saki and co are all ticking time bombs


This wouldn't have happened had the present day society actually mounted a successful response. They were actually in the best position to do so...


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Yea if these kids had an elder mentor to rein them in we wouldn't have had "Boy A" use his powers the way he did and this whole thing wouldn't have started...
More like Boy A needed a furnace to incinerate him alive....You don't need anyone to teach you the wrongness you instinctively feel about killing innocent people who have done you no personal wrong. That's why I wonder...does the manifestation of powers somehow warp their mental state into that of predatory scum?
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:18   Link #594
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Where did all the scientists go...there seem to be zero normal humans left...Unless the scientists themselves are PK users. Don't tell me even they have devolved into religious dogma spouting lunatics...


Bakenezumi really seem to be remnants of humanity now. Else they would not have triggered the feedback.


I can't believe how psychopaths can be allowed to run wild....logically shouldn't there be other PK users to stop them? Psychopathy doesn't seem to be a trait common to PKers...unless Saki and co are all ticking time bombs


This wouldn't have happened had the present day society actually mounted a successful response. They were actually in the best position to do so...
On the last point, the fictional conceit in any story like this is that the PKers (or any full telepath types) aren't eradicated. The rise of PKers would lead to their world-wide elimination in a *very* short order. The support for that policy would be high enough to passed into law in any country.

Which is why, here, they have a so much war and destruction and, somehow, PKers survive. Though they, expectedly enough, pretty much eliminated themselves. (Much for the reason that giving Military-grade weaponry to teenagers is always a bad idea)

This is always what makes telepathy so interesting, from a story telling point of view, and so scary, from a practicality point of view. A "normal" human up against a Telepath is always at a disadvantage and is in extreme danger. Telepaths would either need to be controlled or eradicated. Something like Babylon 5's PsiCorp is probably a really good example of how it would play out with non-telekinetics.

With Shinsekai Yori, we're seeing a combination of attempts that all seem to have gone pretty badly.
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:22   Link #595
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I'm not talking about genocide...I'm talking about crushing any aggressor the same way you would a nation state that invades you, then reaching your hand out to rebuild them once the offending regime is removed.

Why aren't there any PKers scattered throughout all walks of life that any war against PK aggressors them would basically have PKers on both sides? Logically PKers cannot beat the prevailing world order in their limited numbers unless they had like what?...kiloton level firepower at full potential per person or something
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:32   Link #596
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A human without restraint on their personal power is a scary, scary thing. All but the most well trained & well educated will fall to the emotional appeal that the power gives them. They'll stop thinking long term and live to the fullest in that moment. (I.e. they've been removed from the long-term consequences of their actions, so any whim is acceptable to them)

This is one of those reasons that Civilization is always a risky proposition. It's taken thousands of years of practice to train up people that can assume working together, for the long term benefit of yourself and those around them, is a solid idea. Someone with unchecked personal power (the Patient Zero PKer) is not likely to be one with the supremely ingrained sense of duty capable of handling that type of power. Even with that, the power will eventually corruption them thoroughly without some form of check.

So, irrespective of possible emotional changes due to PK power, what happened should be an expected result in most cases. Most especially once they start viewing themselves as batter than "normal" humans. Humans are a scary thing, really.
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:38   Link #597
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I'm not talking about genocide...I'm talking about crushing any aggressor the same way you would a nation state that invades you, then reaching your hand out to rebuild them once the offending regime is removed.

Why aren't there any PKers scattered throughout all walks of life that any war against PK aggressors them would basically have PKers on both sides? Logically PKers cannot beat the prevailing world order in their limited numbers unless they had like what?...kiloton level firepower at full potential per person or something
You can kill anyone around you with just a thought. Why would you help cattle rebuild its society? It's just an animal, really.

That's exactly the thought process most PKers would have very quickly. They wouldn't actually be wrong to think that, either, as their power level is now so superior to a normal human's that it's not a question about their superiority.
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:51   Link #598
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I'm not talking about genocide...I'm talking about crushing any aggressor the same way you would a nation state that invades you, then reaching your hand out to rebuild them once the offending regime is removed.

Why aren't there any PKers scattered throughout all walks of life that any war against PK aggressors them would basically have PKers on both sides? Logically PKers cannot beat the prevailing world order in their limited numbers unless they had like what?...kiloton level firepower at full potential per person or something
We've seen what the priest can do by himself, and that's with him suffering from Death Feedback to boot. A whole group of PKers without death feedback and murderous intent would much likely be far more destructive, not to mention that their powers develop rapidly under pressure.

As for why there doesn't seem to be any good PKers at the time, it could possibly be that there is still more to these syndromes that we still don't know of, something that the library never got to tell the kids. The current population of Cantus users all seem to be genetically modified on top of being indoctrinated with their teachings. It wouldn't surprise me if as far as perfectly normal PKers are concerned, sanity isn't something that comes along with the powers. Maybe the more their powers develop, the crazier they become?
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Old 2012-10-21, 10:57   Link #599
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Maybe the more their powers develop, the crazier they become?
Considering their powers gets stronger under pressure, it's a real possibility it's actually the opposite.
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Old 2012-10-21, 11:30   Link #600
Cosmic Eagle
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You can kill anyone around you with just a thought. Why would you help cattle rebuild its society? It's just an animal, really.
I refer to the normal order of modern day humanity, not to PKers. Aggressor here being rogue PKers...


Quote:
We've seen what the priest can do by himself, and that's with him suffering from Death Feedback to boot. A whole group of PKers without death feedback and murderous intent would much likely be far more destructive, not to mention that their powers develop rapidly under pressure.
The deadliest PKers around seem to be the Emperors....and a bunch of guys with swords assassinated one of them. Even in large masses, there's still things like thermobarics and neutron weapons...


I assume the early wars were obviously far more devastating but it still begs the question how much of it was from collateral damage done through stupid acts like.....nuking your own cities...Of course their high end powers could really be that high end although it's a massive leap from anything shown so far...
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