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Old 2012-10-21, 15:55   Link #621
Malkuth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
When someone with powers harms a human, "death feedback" is activated. So, when the library is damaged by someone with powers, it projects a human image (the "madonna") to induce "death feedback" on whoever attacked it.
This is based on what

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
the "madonna" is a holographic representation of human, the library must have another method of protection against cantus which is this method, as we know cantus user has something called death feedback if they use violence against human..

but how to know the one they use it against is human?? i guess one way is by using five sense as input in this case it's visual so even if the library only some organic computer if they "fool" the sense to think that it's human at just for a little bit of time the death feedback will activate and that's it... that's my theory considering the priest death feedback is triggered...

so, what do you guys think?
Highly improbable, because "the library" was already dead when the image appeared.

What makes less sense is who was seeing this mirage (if it was one at all)... I sense that here the adaption messed up again.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It seems the monk harmed himself with that nife, but he told Saki that she was hurting him. Saki probably got confused by this, somehow believing what he said, and "death feedback" was activated on her.
How did you come to this conclusion?

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
the bearded old geezer is the head priest, to test if saki had the death feedback on/off switch "installed" properly...
Sounds more reasonable, but I don't remember this guy appearing before.

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
but what i don't get is the querrats? what is the vision? saki said they are not the true enemy...so is the querrats being controlled?thus causing illusion of woman with scythe which if my theory is correct causing the priest death feedback even further triggered...
I understood that Saki begun doubting the black and white world that she grew up in, particularly after seeing how cruel the monk was.

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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Well lets not forget that the bio computer was also beaming images into their minds remember.
It did ?!?!?

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Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
Why does everyone assume the kids don't know what sex is?
It's more convenient for the majority of the viewers

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Have you considered the possibility that they're disturbed because the body contact and public displays of affection that they thought was normal behavior was actually conditioned as a means to control them?
Of course it is, and I am puzzled why so many posters ignore it!
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:02   Link #622
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Have you considered the possibility that they're disturbed because the body contact and public displays of affection that they thought was normal behavior was actually conditioned as a means to control them?
Nah.

Hugging and bonding through non-sexual physical contact and public displays of affection have always been considered normal. This was not conditioned. People hug each other in real life when they see each other or shake hands. Wolves bond in a similar way, even through fighting.


Saki was bothered that their hugging could be much more if they were bonobo like. She cringed at the thought.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:05   Link #623
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Saki freaked out during the explaination of "death feedback", not during the genetically programmed sexual attraction... that was Mamoru.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:06   Link #624
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Have you considered the possibility that they're disturbed because the body contact and public displays of affection that they thought was normal behavior was actually conditioned as a means to control them?
I was just about to write this. I think this is very much the case, plus the library thing's explanation adds a creepy sexual overtone to what Saki thought was normal physical intimacy between family/friends. It's a pretty disgusting realization, and she looks appropriately disgusted.

The library specifically mentions that the bonobos have sex as a way of venting stress/excitement when they're sexually mature and are of different sexes. Juveniles and those who belong to the same sex engage in sexual play, that is, mock sexual behavior. So Saki et al are not supposed to be actually having sex with each other, and I don't think it's supposed to mean that they're regularly engaged in mock sexual behavior either. It's just being intimate in general (humans being humans and not bonobos). I mean, if Saki's community was as sex-focused as say, Huxley's Brave New World where sexual play is compulsory from childhood, I think the writers would've dropped some hints in the previous episodes.

Btw, for what it's worth, I think we'll see some sexual behavior in the next episode (going by the promos), I think that will make this case more clear.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:14   Link #625
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I was just about to write this. I think this is very much the case, plus the library thing's explanation adds a creepy sexual overtone to what Saki thought was normal physical intimacy between family/friends. It's a pretty disgusting realization, and she looks appropriately disgusted.

The library specifically mentions that the bonobos have sex as a way of venting stress/excitement when they're sexually mature and are of different sexes. Juveniles and those who belong to the same sex engage in sexual play, that is, mock sexual behavior. So Saki et al are not supposed to be actually having sex with each other. I mean, if Saki's community was as sex-focused as say, Huxley's Brave New World I think the writers would've dropped some hints in the previous episodes.

She won't freak out if this was not punished or taboo. If it were commonplace, like eating or drinking water... just a part of society, she wouldn't have freaked out. She would have been raised with belief that this sort of behavior is okay.


Her reaction is due to her society making this taboo and punishable. She is freaking out because she doesn't want to hear it, imagine it, visualize it in her mind. It shatters her image of their utopian moralistic culture.


She learned...
- her kind were predisposed to be sex crazed maniacs who murdered, raped, engaged in mass murder and debauchery
- she then learned that scientists tried to make her ancestors free sex bonobos to suppress their "demons."


Their culture is supposed to be the opposite of that. They are uptight, conservative, hierarchical, pacifistic, keep to themselves, spiritual.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:18   Link #626
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
She wouldn't freak out like she did if that was the case. I agree with Blaat, Saki saw the parallel between what the library said about "sexual play" between people of the same gender and her own "experiences" with Maria and her mother. The images weren't explicit because the show is being subtle, but the implication is crystal clear.
I dunno. To be honest, I didn't quite understand her reactions. I kinda assumed the shock was due to the whole "society you were taught to trust lying to you"-thing and the world being much bigger and crueler than they thought, not necessarily the subjects themselves (aside from the very hard to comprehend people-killing-people). If the society was really bonobo-like and encouraged such things like sex with your friend and mom then Saki shouldn't really be surprised. It would be normal for her. I mean, if I was willing to have sex with my mom, I wouldn't suddenly go into "Ew incest/pedo" mode just because someone told me there's a reason behind that. It does make more sense I'd have that reaction if the normal affection I share with my mom was supposed to be sexual.
I'm kinda confused over what the writers really meant here. I think we should just wait and see.

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
but how to know the one they use it against is human?? i guess one way is by using five sense as input in this case it's visual so even if the library only some organic computer if they "fool" the sense to think that it's human at just for a little bit of time the death feedback will activate and that's it... that's my theory considering the priest death feedback is triggered...

so, what do you guys think?
I thought this was what happened, that this was a kind of defense mechanism for the creature, but on the other hand, they said death feedback was triggered when the person recognized it was killing another human being. The priest certainly seemed familiar with Rainbow Library and it seems odd that a mere mirage would be able to trick him. Maybe death feedback works on a much more superficial level. Kinda like pain? You can reasonably recognize that it's just getting in the way at certain times, but it will still continue to hurt.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:26   Link #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blonto View Post
Why does everyone assume the kids don't know what sex is?
Well, if these kids already know about sex, I'd kind of expect that to have previously come up one way or another (for example, Satoru teasing Shun with "I bet you'd like to get with Saki, wouldn't you?").

Also, the reaction the kids had to the Bonobos part struck me as a bit severe if they're already familiar with sex.

But Shadow5YA might have a point there. Maybe it's not the concept itself that's startling to them, but the fact that something they thought was normal and healthy was used as a means to control them.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:27   Link #628
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Her reaction is due to her society making this taboo and punishable. She is freaking out because she doesn't want to hear it, imagine it, visualize it in her mind. It shatters her image of their utopian moralistic culture.
It was mostly Mamoru who kept freaking out, everyone else was just sort of shocked, except for when Saki remembered her "training"(?) at that temple and her body's reaction to hurting another human.

To the kids the whole thing was shocking and upsetting not simply because they learned stuff about their past. Peaceful life and not causing physical harm to others has been so deeply ingrained in them, mentally and physically that even the idea of a human hurting another human triggered a strong reaction in them. This part is clear.

But as I said, I think the next episode will make the whole sex part more clear. (Someone linked a promo video, it had a scene that had the same art style as the next episode, and it had some, ahem, sexual behavior.)
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:39   Link #629
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Have you considered the possibility that they're disturbed because the body contact and public displays of affection that they thought was normal behavior was actually conditioned as a means to control them?
This. It's crystal clear. Well, actually it apparently isn't since some people completely misunderstood the scene. Maybe they should have had them explicitly have sex/naked skinship on screen like in the manga (that happened way before the events of this episode, so it's not a spoiler. It's just something the anime omitted, or rather, tried to be subtle about. Too subtle, it appears). They were freaked out because everything they were taught to believe was a clever lie meant to control them. They are pretty much similar to animals in a zoo. Finding that out would have disturbed me quite a bit too.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:41   Link #630
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But Shadow5YA might have a point there. Maybe it's not the concept itself that's startling to them, but the fact that something they thought was normal and healthy was used as a means to control them.
This is pretty much the case.


And for what it's worth, I also think Saki has engaged in more than just skinship with Maria. The anime is just being coy about it.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2012-10-21 at 17:00.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:42   Link #631
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Originally Posted by mechalord View Post
Nah.

Hugging and bonding through non-sexual physical contact and public displays of affection have always been considered normal. This was not conditioned. People hug each other in real life when they see each other or shake hands. Wolves bond in a similar way, even through fighting.


Saki was bothered that their hugging could be much more if they were bonobo like. She cringed at the thought.
No it's not. From my experience, no one ever gives hugs often unless they're very close friends or in a relationship. The most classmates ever do normally is shake hands.
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:42   Link #632
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
This. It's crystal clear. Well, actually it apparently isn't since some people completely misunderstood the scene. Maybe they should have had them explicitly have sex/naked skinship on screen like in the manga (that happened way before the events of this episode, so it's not a spoiler. It's just something the anime omitted, or rather, tried to be subtle about. Too subtle, it appears).
This! At times I feel like I am watching another anime then the majority here
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:46   Link #633
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
This. It's crystal clear. Well, actually it apparently isn't since some people completely misunderstood the scene. Maybe they should have had them explicitly have sex/naked skinship on screen like in the manga (that happened way before the events of this episode, so it's not a spoiler. It's just something the anime omitted, or rather, tried to be subtle about. Too subtle, it appears).
Yea I just don't know why it's so hard for people to believe? I mean the damn bio library laid it all out there for everyone and still god forbid it can never truly be like that it has to be a misinterpretation because sexual behavior shouldn't be so openly accepted and done like this!...
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Old 2012-10-21, 16:56   Link #634
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Dang, that exposition bot took up wayyyy too much time. It was not the most subtle of devices.

Anyhow, aside from that, this was a great episode. That monk provided some level of entertainment though as with the rest of the series his intrests remind a secret. We do know the children are in deep shit though, as they who know too much often will have bad things taken with them. They can't go back, even with the best assurance.

So one thing I really like about this show is the atmosphere of paranoia. It slowly built during the episode and cut off just at the right time. This gives a degree of anxiety that I would say is done better than many a horror film attempts to do. It doesn't help that they realize that their inner thoughts of violence are being suppressed and having the truth revealed makes them afraid of themselves, as well as those around them. This will not end well.

We are in a society that has protected itself by witholding information and surpressed the feelings of the masses. Every attempt has been made to water down sex and violence to avoid the small chance of someone getting too loose. Unfortunately, humans just don't work that way and once a crack is found, we have people that aren't equipped to deal with the things they encounter.
The shows kind of been working the paranoia, foreshadowing and tension since the very first episode, this one merely confirmed and extrapolated upon what we already suspected a little more than most. That's the way I see it.

Fortunately I've prepared myself to handle almost any amount of info dump like this via my current watching of a late 90's show called Gasaraki where virtually every episode is like this only about twice as dense and never really lets up on bombarding you with information. There were some episodes of that show that literally took me an hour to get through because I kept having to go back to rewatch minutes of dialogue at a time to make sure I picked up on everything so that 10 minute info dump this episode was child's play by comparison.
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:05   Link #635
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Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
It did ?!?!?
Yea back in episode 3 it stated with Saki asked if it was an empty library it responded with and I quote...

Quote:
All archived information has been stored as 980 petabytes of holographic memory.
so how else are you going to access holographic memory beside a 3D projection or a stream of information directly linked to your mind?
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:16   Link #636
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
Yea back in episode 3 it stated with Saki asked if it was an empty library it responded with and I quote...

Quote:
All archived information has been stored as 980 petabytes of holographic memory.
so how else are you going to access holographic memory beside a 3D projection or a stream of information directly linked to your mind?
By talking to them, like it did during the 4th episode. They never showed during the episode that the library was playing any 3D projections, unless you assume that the "flashbacks" and "apes" were not intended for the viewers, but the characters... which I is possible, but I highly doubt it.

Anyway, turning the anime family-friendly has obviously ruined a major part of the story Let's hope it does not affect the rest of the episodes.
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:28   Link #637
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Anyway, turning the anime family-friendly has obviously ruined a major part of the story Let's hope it does not affect the rest of the episodes.
Actually... after last time I looked up the manga (I swear this is the last time I mention it but since we are already talking about it) on Amazon and the reviews pretty much say that the manga is going waaaay too far with the sex scenes. So it's not the anime that made things "family-friendly," it's the manga that went all ero.
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:32   Link #638
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So it's not the anime that made things "family-friendly," it's the manga that went all ero.
Neither is a faithful representation of the novel though, which is something of a middle ground, or so I heard...
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:32   Link #639
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Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
Actually... after last time I looked up the manga (I swear this is the last time I mention it but since we are already talking about it) on Amazon and the reviews pretty much say that the manga is going waaaay too far with the sex scenes. So it's not the anime that made things "family-friendly," it's the manga that went all ero.
How the manga handled the story is irrelevant. The problem is that the anime has confused way too many people.
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Old 2012-10-21, 17:37   Link #640
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Neither is a faithful representation of the novel though, which is something of a middle ground, or so I heard...
I'd rather not go into that because we're only on episode 4, if I'm not mistaken the next episode is going to have some sort of sexual content (I'm basing this on a promo video so it's no spoiler), so we don't know how faithful the anime is going to be when it comes to this. (The manga's story is moving a lot faster than the anime so it will take at least one, but likely two more episodes to catch up to the end of volume 1.)

What I mean to say is, just because the anime hasn't had any explicit two girls action doesn't mean it's a dumbed down and more family friendly adaptation.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2012-10-21 at 17:49.
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