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Old 2012-10-21, 19:00   Link #61
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
What you define as strong concepts, I see just as popular ideas with the 20th century western world.
They're strong concepts because of the very high range of possibilities that are inherent to them. You can go virtually anywhere with Star Trek, for example.

There really is only so many places you can go with a high school romance comedy that's just a high school romance comedy. Sure, with good execution it can still be a good show, but the basic narrative idea behind the show does place some limitations on it.


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There's a different view of what is strong and weak, high or low brow, in other cultures.
So The Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, and Star Wars are seen as having weak and low brow concepts in other cultures?


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And even accepting what you said, there had been a lot of similar fiction before Star Wars or Star Trek, and they utterly failed to become popular enough.
Such as?

If you're going to make an argument like this, the absolute least you can do is provide a couple supporting examples for your argument.

Well, please put them out there. Let's see just how similar this "a lot of similar fiction" really is...


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So again, "execution" is the defining thing here, because it can make any and all concepts seem like the most interesting thing ever,
I disagree. There are some concepts that I would never see as more interesting than Star Trek's.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:18   Link #62
hyl
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@Triple_R

The way how you are presenting star trek with it's endless possibility depends on the execution, not on the concept itself.
The reason why i am saying this is that the original premise of Star trek is so extremely broad and maybe even vague, that you can actually expand it with infinite possibilities due to the abilities of the person who writes the stories.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Just looking at the current Top 10 anime shows per week, it is evident that "concept" isn't the highest selling point. It certainly helps, but when 6 out of 10 shows are fairly middling to average in terms of "concept" then it seems obvious that concept (or premise) is not a necessary component of popularity.

Viewer ratings doesn't mean that much , seeing that kids shows will always be more popular than otaku shows. It doesn't help that most animes intended for otakus are broadcasted at midnight.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:27   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There really is only so many places you can go with a high school romance comedy that's just a high school romance comedy. Sure, with good execution it can still be a good show, but the basic narrative idea behind the show does place some limitations on it.
Well, of course: there's a limitation of scope.

Not all shows are trying to be giant sci-fi/fantasy universes that can spawn and support hundreds of different stories/worlds/characters and so on. If your whole point is that some concepts are broader in scope than others... well, no kidding. But "execution" is about managing and exceeding expectations within your scope.

So I don't really understand the purpose of your "not all narrative concepts are created equal" argument. Isn't that obvious? The scope and scale are completely different. But, any narrative concept can be conveyed effectively and meaningfully to its target audience with the help of strong execution, and I think that was the argument of the thread OP.

I don't think you can or should take any given show that comes back, look at its premise, and dismiss it because "that's no Star Trek!". You have to consider what each show is trying to do, and whether it delivers on what its premise promises.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:31   Link #64
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Th way how you are presenting star trek with it's endless possibility depends on the execution, not on the concept itself.
The endless possibility is not depended on the execution. The concept itself allows for it. Execution will determine how well those possibilities are utilized, but the possibilities themselves are rooted in the concept.

Yes, the original premise of Star Trek is extremely broad and that is much of Star Trek's strength. Without such an extremely broad concept you never would have achieved five separate TV shows (three running for seven seasons each!), numerous movies, and a massive dedicated multi-generational fanbase.

Some narrative concepts really do have more potential (as in there's more places that you can go with it) than most others do.


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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post

So I don't really understand the purpose of your "not all narrative concepts are created equal" argument. Isn't that obvious?
Well, I thought so too, but maybe not given how some people are arguing against it.


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The scope and scale are completely different. But, any narrative concept can be conveyed effectively and meaningfully to its target audience with the help of strong execution, and I think that was the argument of the the thread OP.

I don't think you can or should take any given show that comes back, look at its premise, and dismiss it because "that's no Star Trek!". You have to consider what each show is trying to do, and whether it delivers on what its premise promises.
Sure, I agree with all of that.

I wouldn't dismiss a show just because it has a generic concept. I mean, I really liked Tari Tari and that has a pretty generic concept behind it.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:36   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The endless possibility is not depended on the execution. The concept itself allows for it. Execution will determine how well those possibilities are utilized, but the possibilities themselves are rooted in the concept.

Yes, the original premise of Star Trek is extremely broad and that is much of Star Trek's strength. Without such an extremely broad concept you never would have achieved five separate TV shows (three running for seven seasons each!), numerous movies, and a massive dedicated multi-generational fanbase.

Some narrative concepts really do have more potential (as in there's more places that you can go with it) than most others do.
Personally i disagree, because a story can change it's direction from it's original concept. Some weekly mangas are prone to that, if their "ratings" suffer and they are heading towards a possible cancellation.
The new possibility (sometimes even paired with a genre switch) came from the execution.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:38   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So I don't really understand the purpose of your "not all narrative concepts are created equal" argument. Isn't that obvious?
Well what started this particular exchange is this

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Originally Posted by kirarakim
Yes I think all premises are basically created equal.
So depending on exactly what "basicly" means it isn't obvious to kirarakim
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:45   Link #67
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Maybe an example for my previous post: Medaka box. The one shot and the first few chapters were entirely different from the current shounen battle manga, because it was no longer about helping the people in need but Medaka fighting stronger people.

Even the idea of the "box" was scrapped after 15 or so chapters.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:45   Link #68
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Personally i disagree, because a story can change it's direction from it's original concept. Some weekly mangas are prone to that, if their "ratings" suffer and they are heading towards a possible cancellation.
The new possibility (sometimes even paired with a genre switch) came from the execution.
I disagree.

If a story is changing direction from its original concept then it is by necessity making use of a new concept. That's not a matter of execution, that's a matter of coming up with a brand new core concept for a show, or a manga.


Edit: Also, aren't you basically saying that some concepts fail ? I mean, if a story is changing from its original concept then that kind of suggests that the concept failed, doesn't it? Especially if the story goes on to work perfectly fine with a different core concept, because that shows that the initial problem presumably wasn't with the characters or the writers (unless they also changed of course).

And if some concepts fail while others succeed...
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:51   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I disagree.

If a story is changing direction from its original concept then it is by necessity making use of a new concept. That's not a matter of execution, that's a matter of coming up with a brand new core concept for a show, or a manga.


Edit: Also, aren't you basically saying that some concepts fail? I mean, if a story is changing from its original concept then that kind of suggests that the concept failed, doesn't it? Especially if the show goes on to work perfectly fine with a different core concept, because that shows that the problem presumably wasn't with the characters or the writers (unless the writers also changed of course).

And if some concepts fail while others succeed...
Changing the current concept has to do with the exectution. You can't change for example a love comedy into a shounen battle manga without a believable execution.
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:53   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Well what started this particular exchange is this

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirarakim
Yes I think all premises are basically created equal.
So depending on exactly what "basicly" means it isn't obvious to kirarakim
Ah well, yeah, I suppose it depends on what was meant. I would say that all premises have the equal potential to convey an enjoyable story to their intended target audience (i.e. within their scope). But, yeah, the scope of the premise is different. A successful and popular genre piece may never reach the same level of popularity as one with a broader scope that appeals to more people. But for people who want a really good work within a certain style/genre, that particular work can still be a classic, seminal piece.


(Meanwhile, the rather pointless side-debate continues... You can just redefine "concept" and "execution" to mean whatever you want because the two go hand-in-hand.)
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Old 2012-10-21, 19:55   Link #71
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Changing the current concept has to do with the exectution. You can't change for example a love comedy into a shounen battle manga without a believable execution.
The smoothness of the transition from one concept to the next is indeed depended on execution, of course. But that transition is only a small part of the final work, of course - Nobody is going to evaluate the work on the transition period alone.
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Old 2012-10-21, 20:06   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The smoothness of the transition from one concept to the next is indeed depended on execution, of course. But that transition is only a small part of the final work, of course - Nobody is going to evaluate the work on the transition period alone.
I probably use the word "concept" differently than you do, seeing how you are wording it. Because in my own words a concept is a general idea before you have written something. In others words a "first design" and the first thing what is needed before you can write a story.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-21 at 20:22. Reason: typo
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Old 2012-10-21, 20:30   Link #73
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Well there is always a dissonance between what critics and the general population will think of works, and here it is no different. A seasoned critic is more likely to enjoy or give more points to something that truly strives to be something more than run of the mill, while someone in a general audience might not care at all so long as they had a good time.

This is present in the west in Hollywood. Look at what typically wins the Oscars every year, and then go look what the best selling movies were of each year. They're almost never the same, but a select group of professionals valued certain titles more.

Anime is no different of course. That is why works like Naruto Shippuden continue to be the most popular anime titles (And nothing against Naruto, I admittedly still enjoy it when it's not on fillers). However, if someone sits here trying to tell me that the execution of these top titles is spot on, I can only shake my head in disbelief.

Yeah, execution can really make a somewhat banal premise very enjoyable, but sorry that isn't enough sometimes. I will never give the same credit to something like say last season's Tari Tari as I would to something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or if you'd prefer a title in the genre not too far removed, take ~ef a tale of memories, which is considerably more imaginative, distinctive, and ambitious than Tari Tari in my eyes.

I very much agree with the idea that not all premises are created equally in an artistic sense. In terms of enjoyment, well sure it doesn't mean anything. People might enjoy watching paint dry. But if we had a sort of anime oscars or something, I'd figure that wouldn't be a top choice .
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Old 2012-10-21, 20:37   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Anime is no different of course. That is why works like Naruto Shippuden continue to be the most popular anime titles (And nothing against Naruto, I admittedly still enjoy it when it's not on fillers). However, if someone sits here trying to tell me that the execution of these top titles is spot on, I can only shake my head in disbelief.
Depends on the audience. You may not like the execution for these shows, but that doesn't mean others didn't like them. Especially if these shows like naruto are more marketed for children (or more like teens) in japan.


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Yeah, execution can really make a somewhat banal premise very enjoyable, but sorry that isn't enough sometimes. I will never give the same credit to something like say last season's Tari Tari as I would to something like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or if you'd prefer a title in the genre not too far removed, take ~ef a tale of memories, which is considerably more imaginative, distinctive, and ambitious than Tari Tari in my eyes.
I am not sure if it's fair to compare series with different premises and different style of executions with each other. Those 3 series may have been well executed for you, but i don't see many similarities otherwise.

edit: I liked last seasons Hyouka and Tari Tari for their execution. While theese 2 series have some similarities in their basic premise (both were essentially "coming of age" stories in a high school settings and it was mostly set in a club), but the way how the stories were told was very different.

Last edited by hyl; 2012-10-21 at 20:58.
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Old 2012-10-21, 20:58   Link #75
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Again, the initial assumption that LOGH deserves more credit than Tari Tari just based on the scope of their story is something I can't agree with. Both are trying to present different themes and the nuances that come with their genre and context make the titles incomparable.

It's just a matter of personal philosophy at this level. I don't put the seriousness or amount of layers of a work in a pedestal. I simply look for that in fiction that aims for that, and don't care for it on fiction that doesn't even try to reach a huge level of complexity.

Another argument I hold is that proper storytelling and good audiovisual execution can generate meaning by themselves. Someone was talking earlier about Jintai's colour palette and how it tied with some ideas the show was forwarding to the audience. That's something achieved by the person(s) who designed and directed the art of the anime, and it managed to become a significant visual symbol because it took into account the sarcastic tone of the show and the setting. I don't see that as part of the "premise", "story" or whatever. It's a decision purely concerned with the storytelling, and it still gives "the story" more substance.
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:01   Link #76
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My opinion
Premises are very much needed for a story, but i don't think that it's more important than the execution. While we are still talking about hollywood, the biggest example are the remakes. They actually follow the same concept and premise, but yet people don't think they are the same due to some differences in execution.
Remakes tend to do worse than the original, eventhough there are some exceptions.
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:05   Link #77
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I don't know what to say: I guess it depends on how it's done and whatever your taste is.

For example, I'm not a huge fan of ecchi/harem type stuff....the last harem anime I seriously really liked was Love Hina and that was ages ago. However, I like Sakurasou no Pet even though it's basically an R Rated version of Honey and Clover(which I love).

I love mystery anime; everyone keeps telling me how great Hyouka is but I watched on episode and couldn't get even thru it. Yet, Un Go is one of my favorite series from last year and no one knows what I"m talking about...
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:15   Link #78
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At the end of the day, basically, a promise of "good execution" may be enough to help people overcome their misgivings about a show's initial premise. Perhaps sort of like "I don't usually like shows about <x>, but I have to admit this one was really well done." And even for people who do like a certain genre or concept already, "good execution" may cause an already-enjoyable show to become one that is cherished or often re-watched. Outside of this sort of internal fandom war where every show is in competition with each other ("There can be only one!"), what it really comes down to is: "Am I likely to enjoy this show?" So I think that's really what this so-called "execution effect" is all about: it can elevate a premise beyond its pre-conceived constraints.


Incidentally, as a sort of side topic, one of the risks that an anime has is having its premise misjudged based on what is shown in the early episodes. And once that perceived establishing of the premise occurs, people will be judging the execution of the show based on that perception of the premise. While there are certain objective qualities that may define shows with "good execution", so much of it is still subjective as it relates to the viewer's perception of the premise. So, shows where the premise evolves (or the central theme wasn't totally clear from the get-go) tend to provoke a lot of controversy, because they can tend to attract a lot of unmet expectations.
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:17   Link #79
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Did someone compare Tari Tari to LOGH? imo, that's comparing apples to oranges. You really can't say Inception was a better movie than, say, Hot Tub Time Machine because they're of completely different genres. If you want to compare two series you really have to compare between genres.
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:39   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
I am not sure if it's fair to compare series with different premises and different style of executions with each other. Those 3 series may have been well executed for you, but i don't see many similarities otherwise.

edit: I liked last seasons Hyouka and Tari Tari for their execution. While theese 2 series have some similarities in their basic premise (both were essentially "coming of age" stories in a high school settings and it was mostly set in a club), but the way how the stories were told was very different.
I used ~ef as a school setting show because it's much closer to Tari Tari than LoGH since I knew posters like the above poster would as expected point out the difference in scope of their premises.

And interesting you brought up Hyouka because to me that is shining example to me recently of being able to break the mold of school setting shows. Tari Tari definitely isn't IMO. And it's not just execution, it's their very premises that are different too. Hyouka set itself up to be a more methodical show with more interesting and complex characters than Tari Tari, and for that reason it manages to elevate past it.

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Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Again, the initial assumption that LOGH deserves more credit than Tari Tari just based on the scope of their story is something I can't agree with. Both are trying to present different themes and the nuances that come with their genre and context make the titles incomparable.

It's just a matter of personal philosophy at this level. I don't put the seriousness or amount of layers of a work in a pedestal. I simply look for that in fiction that aims for that, and don't care for it on fiction that doesn't even try to reach a huge level of complexity.
Why I used ~ef as another example, or you can even use Hyouka for all I care since I knew people would complain about that example. Though really people disregarding comparisons is just an an easy excuse for mediocre efforts. They are not incomparable.

And no you're not even understanding what I said. I never talked about scope. I am merely referring to the ability of a production to break free from myriad of extremely banal premises out there and do something creative, new, distinctive. The first thing I look for in most works is what its personal merits are that not many other shows out there have. If it has none, how could I ever really call it that great?

This has nothing to do with complexity necessarily. Some of the best works in anime or art in general are fairly simplistic. Look at a film like Grave of the Fireflies which is an all time classic, the story is simple as hell but sure packs a punch.

Yeah a good work by default requires strong execution. What makes a good work great though? I am saying that lies in the very essence of its story, which something like Tari Tari could never hope to achieve due to the limits it placed on itself through its premise.

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Originally Posted by Uberchu View Post
Did someone compare Tari Tari to LOGH? imo, that's comparing apples to oranges. You really can't say Inception was a better movie than, say, Hot Tub Time Machine because they're of completely different genres. If you want to compare two series you really have to compare between genres.
It's quite easy to dismiss my claims with a simple "BUT YOU CAN'T COMPARE," (But you can) but if you really read my post you'd see I provided you another example.

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
At the end of the day, basically, a promise of "good execution" may be enough to help people overcome their misgivings about a show's initial premise. Perhaps sort of like "I don't usually like shows about <x>, but I have to admit this one was really well done." And even for people who do like a certain genre or concept already, "good execution" may cause an already-enjoyable show to become one that is cherished or often re-watched. Outside of this sort of internal fandom war where every show is in competition with each other ("There can be only one!"), what it really comes down to is: "Am I likely to enjoy this show?" So I think that's really what this so-called "execution effect" is all about: it can elevate a premise beyond its pre-conceived constraints.
Yeah but at least what I trying to get is that the genre doesn't even matter. There are titles within the same genre that I think are better merely based on its pretensions being a bit more distinctive, creative than the norm in a good way. Good execution is a requirement for any good work, but what really takes it to the next level? I really did like that diving analogy someone used earlier, though you didn't agree with it and thought it was more like ice skating.
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