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Old 2012-10-21, 22:32   Link #61
F21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
teach me more master. i'm not knowledgable about this whole deal. how does the conversion process work? what part was the mistake? how did the mistake happen? what should they have done to correct this mistake? any sources/interviews that tipped of you of this fuck-up or are you an expert that you noticed this immediately? i'm also curious because i've been a fan of the 1999 series for a decade now and this is absolutely the first time i've heard about it.

but anyway, man i didn't furuhashi know furuhashi was such a noob. making this kind of mistake even though he'd been doing anime for at least a decade, and in a high-rating series watched by millions of viewers at that! i thought his experience in rurouni kenshin, which has its fair share of dark scenes, would have given him enough experience to make this kind of fuck-up but apparently not. and here i was holding him in such high regard
No need for sarcasm. I've never claimed to be an expert on film-editing, but it's rather simple to deduce that the original master had, somewhere along the line, become corrupt. Did you see the original animation cel for the scene where Nobunaga and Machi are standing in the courtyard? Compare that cel to the final product.

I also find it hard to believe that the aforementioned massacre scene was intended to be so dark as to lose all detail (we're talking dark to the point of, if you hadn't read the manga, you'd have no idea what was happening). Do you honestly think that those stuttering flashes are intentional?
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Old 2012-10-21, 22:41   Link #62
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
No need for sarcasm. I've never claimed to be an expert on film-editing, but it's rather simple to deduce that the original master had, somewhere along the line, become corrupt. Did you see the original animation cel for the scene where Nobunaga and Machi are standing in the court yard? Compare that cell to the final product.
Easy to deduce? Why, I don't think so. In my past decade of being an HxH fan, I haven't encountered a single soul who ever made the claim that the bright flashes were "seizure inducing" and that "it is difficult to make out what was happening" and that this was caused by "Nippon's fuck-up." Everyone knew it was an stylistic choice and no one had a problem with how it was presented. Easy to deduce? Go ahead, show me posts at least a week before this episode aired that voiced those same opinions. Let's see how easy it is.

And yes, I have seen that picture. And I have said over and over again that it is the norm back then. If you look at the cels of other 90s series you would see that the cels are also brighter than whatever was aired on TV. So NO, this wasn't a fuck-up speficially made by Nippon.

In fact, I'm interested in hearing your explanation on how you can possibly think that such an experienced director working on one of the top-rating series at the time could have made such an elementary mistake.

Try again Toto F21.


My opinion of the episode:
Coming from the excellent episode 51, 52 is crap through and through.
Shitty animation, awful art (Silva looks like some Chinese dog), so-so music placement, slow pacing of the first half and too much filler content to pad the episode and to dumb down the content. 1999 shouldn't even be compared to this. 4/10.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-21 at 22:53.
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Old 2012-10-21, 22:56   Link #63
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
teach me more master. i'm not knowledgable about this whole deal. what part was the mistake exactly? how did the mistake happen? what should they have done to correct this mistake? how does the conversion process work in the first place? any sources/interviews that tipped of you of this fuck-up or are you an expert that you noticed this immediately? i'm also curious because i've been a fan of the 1999 series for a decade now and this is absolutely the first time i've heard about it.
Being a fan of the series doen't make anyone an expert. You are just more passionate about what you like. So if you kindly drop the condescending tone on your post, you probably will come across a little bit better. Look, the technique used to animate has evolved for the better in many ways since the days of the previous version of Hunter x Hunter. Madhouse is generally regarded as one of the better studios who can animate shows at a pretty decent standard. Whether or not such standard is upheld for most episodes in this new version is debatable. There are certain things the 1999 version has done better, but I don't know if I can say the same about overall animation. For emotional attachment to how some of those moments that I hold in high regards in HxH, I still think the 1999 has done better. I absolutely hated how little bit of time was given in the new version to that scene where Gon would reflect his first defeat against Hisoka. I thought that episode defined the turning point for Gon's character and the new found resolve needed to ascend to the next level. Those were the type of scene that helped audience of 1999 version to develop an emotional attachment to that story and those characters. At the same time, 1999 version was painfully slow and pretty redundant at times which the new version doesn't suffer from as much.

That said, the new version is managing to capture the interest of a lot of viewers, so I would like to think it's not without merit. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine, but please try to channel your disagreement in a manner that improve the overall discussion.
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Old 2012-10-21, 22:56   Link #64
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Each their own. I enjoyed it. 1999 was better I agree but this one was awesome as well. Just dragged a bit too around the middle. They are slowing things down.
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:01   Link #65
F21
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Look, I never intended this to turn into an argument. All I'm presenting are the facts:

a) Nippon Animation's Hunter x Hunter is unusually dark; even when compared to its contemporaries. That is no a "stylistic choice".
b) Nippon Animation has instances of scenes constantly flashing and animation stuttering. That is not a "stylistic choice".

You may not have heard people complain of such things, but I have. It was first brought to my attention only a few months ago, in fact.

As a fellow Hunter x Hunter fan, you should agree that Nippon Animation's adaptation isn't perfect, just as Madhouse's is far from perfect. But there are things Madhouse just does better (and vice versa). One of those things is making sure the finished product maintains consistent quality.
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:02   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
My opinion of the episode:
Coming from the excellent episode 51, 52 is crap through and through.
Shitty animation, awful art (Silva looks like some Chinese dog), so-so music placement, slow pacing of the first half and too much filler content to pad the episode and to dumb down the content. 1999 shouldn't even be compared to this. 4/10.
Agreed. This section is a favorite of mine, and Madhouse just dropped the ball this week. It was easily one of the worst episodes of the series imo.
It's ironic how this fight was so much better animated and choreographed years ago. But then again, Nippon used some big names for this one back then.

And glad to see more and more people are onto "him". I just hope they won't punish anyone else for it.
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:07   Link #67
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by monir View Post
Being a fan of the series doen't make anyone an expert. You are just more passionate about what you like. So if you kindly drop the condescending tone on your post, you probably will come across a little bit better. Look, the technique used to animate has evolved for the better in many ways since the days of the previous version of Hunter x Hunter. Madhouse is generally regarded as one of the better studios who can animate shows at a pretty decent standard. Whether or not such standard is upheld for most episodes in this new version is debatable. There are certain things the 1999 version done better, but I don't know if I can say the same about overall animation. For emotional attachment to how some of those moments that I hold in high regards in HxH, I still think the 1999 has done better. I absolutely hated how little bit of time was given in the new version to that scene where Gon would reflect his first defeat against Hisoka. I thought that episode defined the turning point for Gon's character and the new found resolve needed to ascend to the next level. Those were the type of scene that helped audience of 1999 version to develop an emotional attachment to that story and the characters. At the same time, 1999 version was painfully slow and pretty redundant which the new version doesn't suffer from as much.

The new version is managing to capture the interest of a lot of viewers, so I would like to think it's not without merit. If you don't agree, that's perfectly fine, but please try to channel your disagreement in a manner that improve the overall discussion.
Look, I understand why my post that you deleted was personal. I will not and did not contest that.

I don't see much problem with the post with you quoted, however. Yes, it was sarcastic, is sarcasm not allowed here now? My intent was not to be aggressive but to indicate how I believe F21's claim to be absurd while at the same time giving chance that she might possibly on to something. (Otherwise I would have said, "You're wrong.")

Also when I said "I'm a fan for a decade now" I was not trying to say that "I know better than you." I literally meant that it was my first time hearing it. You see, the crux of F21's argument later is that it's "easy to deduce." Well if it's so easy to deduce then believe me I would have heard of it. I haven't. That's the point.
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:13   Link #68
F21
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Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Try again Toto F21.
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Originally Posted by Goty View Post
And glad to see more and more people are onto "him". I just hope they won't punish anyone else for it.
Oh boy, here come the accusations and conspiracy theories.

Let's keep discussion civil, alright?
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:18   Link #69
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
Look, I never intended this to turn into an argument. All I'm presenting are the facts:

a) Nippon Animation's Hunter x Hunter is unusually dark; even when compared to its contemporaries. That is no a "stylistic choice".
b) Nippon Animation has instances of scenes constantly flashing and animation stuttering. That is not a "stylistic choice".
How are these even facts? How do you even know these things?

Rurouni Kenshin OVA is darker than Yuyu Hakusho, isn't this an stylistic choice? Yuyu Hakusho was darker than Card Captor Sakura, was this a mistake as well? Card Captor Sakura was darker than Akazukin Cha Cha, what of it? What is dark enough, what is "too dark"?

I've asked you over and over again to explain how you can possibly think that an experienced director who just came from doing one of the most critically-acclaimed OVAs and was then working on one of the top-rating series at the time could have made such an elementary mistake.

This is a big claim. Back it up.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-21 at 23:26. Reason: You are still not getting it. STOP making it sound so personal. STOP cursing.
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:36   Link #70
F21
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Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
What is "too dark"?
Not being able to see what's happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
I've asked you over and over again to explain how you can possibly think that an experienced director who just came from doing one of the most critically-acclaimed OVAs and was then working on one of the top-rating series at the time could have made such an elementary mistake.
The director is not solely responsible for film editing. Nippon Animation has never been known for their quality productions (apart from select works from World Masterpiece Theater).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
You've made big claims. You haven't done shit to back them up.
I find it hard to believe you would honestly defend ANIMATION STUTTERING as anything other than a fuck up, but hey - give me some time. All I can present you with are clips from the original series that show signs of shoddy production, if you want something more, then let me search for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Show me posts. All edited posts are null and void.
So all in all how many said this? And oh, only a few months ago? Out of how many years you've been a fan?
Posts? A friend of mine brought it up as we were re-watching the original series. I'm positive it's been discussed before (maybe not here).


Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Why shift the discussion to the series as a whole and making it seem like 1999 fans an unappreciative people?
I never insinuated that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Personally I was so nervous at the beginning of the episode because I wanted this, out of all other, to be good so badly. I loved the last episode and in the past, many important scenes in the series have been done well, so I had my hopes for this episode.
It was good. I would agree with you that the fight scene fell flat if it wasn't for the fact that it was ALMOST IDENTICAL to Nippon Animation's. As mentioned, time and time again, the ONLY difference was how dark Nippon Animation's was and I would be willing to bet a hell of a lot that that was not a stylistic choice. The pitch black massacre at the auction was not a stylistic choice. The animation stuttering and SEIZURE-INDUCING FLASHING was not a stylistic choice.
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Old 2012-10-22, 00:10   Link #71
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
Not being able to see what's happening.
Cool, but I disgaree.

We saw what was happening clearly enough and most fans agree. Actually your opinion is the clear minority here (or should I say ---- rarity). Everyone else found no problems with this so I really think it's not a "fact."

Quote:
The director is not solely responsible for film editing. Nippon Animation has never been known for their quality productions (apart from select works from World Masterpiece Theater).
Yes, the director is not responsible for the details of the animated work. But I will also bet to hell that he has something to say about the visual COMPOSITION of the series, something that is very basic and is fixed throughout the series. Besides, what of the rest of the staff members? What about Fuji TV who aired this?

Nippon Animation may not have made the most popular or "best quality" animes. But that does not automatically imply that they fucked-up something as basic as series composition for HxH. That's quite a quantum leap you made. You need more facts before you make this claim because one does not necessarily imply the other.

Quote:
I find it hard to believe you would honestly defend ANIMATION STUTTERING as anything other than a fuck up, but hey - give me some time. All I can present you with are clips from the original series that show signs of shoddy production, if you want something more, then let me search for it.
Again, no one has ever even brought-up the "animation stuttering" claim so I don't see why it's unbelievable that I'm defending it.

May I also know how it is a "fuck up" in the first place? I thought I knew but it's kind of vague now. Did they fuck just the dark scene up? But you brought-up Machi and Nobunaga so I thought you were referring to the composition of the series as a whole.

If you're referring to just the scene in York Shin - you might see it that way and it's cool, but let me point-out that 99% of people who have seen the 1999 series don't think the same. In fact it was never a problem until, coincidentally, the last episode was aired or close to airing. For the rest of the nine years I have been a fan ---- nope, never heard of it. Most people praised the dark approach of Nippon Animation.

If you're referring to the series as a whole - they won't make this elementary mistake. No way. Furuhashi, Nippon Animation, Shueishia (who has so many experience in anime adaptations), Fuji TV and other experienced members of the anime staff involved. Nope.

Quote:
It was good. I would agree with you that the fight scene fell flat if it wasn't for the fact that it was ALMOST IDENTICAL to Nippon Animation's. As mentioned, time and time again, the ONLY difference was how dark Nippon Animation's was and I would be willing to bet a hell of a lot that that was not a stylistic choice. The pitch black massacre at the auction was not a stylistic choice. The animation stuttering and SEIZURE-INDUCING FLASHING was not a stylistic choice.
I personally believe that the difference is not merely on the lighting of the room. The animation of 1999 is much superior, 2011 was outsourced to Koreans. It is much more fluid while 2011 consisted of so many static and frames from weird angles. The choreography is much better and clearer in 1999 too.

The art is superior in 1999 as well. Danchou, Zeno and everyone else were drawn better. Silva looks especially ugly. But then again, 1999's design has always been far superior to 2011's.

Music is much better in 1999. The orchestral "Requiem's Aranaea" (if i'm not mistaken) is too in-your-face and had no subtlety about it all. The Zoldyck theme isn't much better. In fact I was soooo relieved when they didn't use these in episode 51 and chose Lacrimosa and something else instead. Those were more fit for the mood.

Other elements were better as well. There was greater sense of suspense when Danchou revealed his book and used Owl's ability. It fell flat and did not have much impact in 2011. The set-up of Zeno and Silva finding Danchou is also better in 1999.

I also believe that the dark room set the mood much better, just like the Hisoka-Gon scene in the Hunter Exam.

Anyway, that's my view on why I believe 1999 is much superior in the fight. The difference for me is like night and day. When we talk about the requiem it is close with 2011 winning, but not this time. 1999 = 11/10, 2011 = 4/10
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:01   Link #72
F21
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Ok chikkychappy, we can agree to disagree as you see fit. I'll forgive the personal attacks and I'll forget all the generalizations and misdirection.

Here's the comparison again, if you missed it the first time. *Note - I am a fan of both series, old and new. I just think there is an abnormal amount of unnecessary criticism directed at the new series.

Nippon Animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNH4zodURxc

Madhouse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hTta0c4V30

Now tell me honestly, between these two scenes - why is one worthy of so much scorn, while the other is held as some paragon of atmosphere and direction?

Madhouse's has faults, no one is denying that. But it's not bad. I've listed Nippon Animation's faults - the evidence you seek is within the above video, it also isn't bad.

I respect your opinion, so please respect mine.
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:31   Link #73
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
Ok chikkychappy, we can agree to disagree as you see fit. I'll forgive the personal attacks and I'll forget all the generalizations and misdirection.

Here's the comparison again, if you missed it the first time. *Note - I am a fan of both series, old and new. I just think there is an abnormal amount of unnecessary criticism directed at the new series.

Nippon Animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNH4zodURxc

Madhouse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hTta0c4V30

Now tell me honestly, between these two scenes - why is one worthy of so much scorn, while the other is held as some paragon of atmosphere and direction?

Madhouse's has faults, no one is denying that. But it's not bad. I've listed Nippon Animation's faults - the evidence you seek is within the above video, it also isn't bad.

I respect your opinion, so please respect mine.
Fair enough.

But let me clarify that I did disrespect your opinion (well, not deliberately). Our whole debate circled around the claim that Nippon "fucked-up" with the dark room. This is a question of fact and I merely asked for evidences. (In fact you were the one who brought it up). After all, this is a HUGE claim; it is not proper to go around parading this as true with no evidence. (Even I have never made such a big factual claim against the 2011 series. Never.)

As for the videos, I can't view them unfortunately because I'm at work. What of it? I have both episodes 52 and 62 (of 2011 and 1999) in my ipad though which I can view anytime. Is that what you want me to see?
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:43   Link #74
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I like the dark room of 99, it feels more intense. I guess in a way, Nippon saved some money, instead of using a bight room like 2011.
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:46   Link #75
F21
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Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Fair enough. Our whole debate circled around the claim that Nippon "fucked-up" with the dark room. This is a question of fact and I merely asked for evidences. (In fact you were the one who brought it up). After all, this is a HUGE claim; it is not proper to go around parading this as true with no evidence. (Even I have never made such a big factual claim against the 2011 series. Never.)
My claim is valid. I'll have to steal one of SHINOBI-03's images to demonstrate this:
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:53   Link #76
chikkychappy
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
My claim is valid. I'll have to steal one of SHINOBI-03's images to demonstrate this:
What is your claim in the first place? Just certain scenes from York Shin or the composition of the TV series as a whole?

I need to look at the actual episode before I comment. I also need to see examples from episode 62 itself.

But again let me reiterate that no one had a problem with the lighting of the scene until today.


On another note:
I think that 2011 did the first auction attack better than 1999. But not because it was "too dark" in the 1999 anime or anything like that. I prefer Madhouse's version because they put the proper emphasis on the scene whereas Furuhashi just glossed over it.
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:58   Link #77
F21
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Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
What is your claim in the first place? Just York Shin or the composition of the TV series as a whole?
My claim is that the film masters of the entirety of Nippon Animation's adaptation have been overall poor quality. The transition between how dark the series is compared to the OVAs demonstrates this.
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Old 2012-10-22, 02:00   Link #78
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Dude, he's been stating his claim for several posts now....... That screenshot is in fact, a good example of what he is talking about.

And no, this is NOT me harping on the 1999 series, just stating a fact.

Also I'm not Toto.

Last edited by monir; 2012-10-22 at 02:35. Reason: portion of post edited for toning things down
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Old 2012-10-22, 02:07   Link #79
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I find it hilarious that whenever MH adds fillers users here praise them but at the same time they criticize Nippon's ones (even though they fit perfectly, e.g. when Kurapica says that Gon has his own objective or when Hisoka was pretty sure that Gon would make it to the next phase of the exam or the hilarious Leorio scene in episode 61 when Leorio took the phone and Kurapica hang up on him at that moment or when in episode 7 Kurapica wasn't shown as a coward like in the new anime or the manga or not showing Tonpa's true face, etc.). MH fillers for once weren't awful, ALTHOUGH they were there to hand-hold the viewer and explain some things explicitly. Still, they served no purpose story-wise (unlike 1999 ones).
1) Gon + Killua scene
Why did they even choose a subway if it added nothing? It was a change for the sake of changes to show they can do more than copying/pasting frames from the manga. Plus the train stopping didn't make any sense, attacks were on the surface and a subway station would be more safe than in the middle of the route for various reasons (since the risk of other train crashing into this one would become even smaller - not that it would be big in the first place, there are safety mechanisms for that but it's never good for a train to stop in the middle of a route where trains usually reach maximum speed - plus there would be no risk of panic). And hey, it's dark in the metro/subway so it's shit right?

2) Kurapica's scenes
They have distorted the way he was being presented in the manga. Kurapica being held up by Nostrade has presented him as someone unresorceful which is not true at all. Even if he was ordered to stay with Neon he would give Nostrade a handful of good arguments to do otherwise so he could go after the spider. Firstly, a powerful nen user like himself would be like a beacon so Neon would be more at risk if he was there (Nostrade wouldn't have to know about zetsu). Secondly, it was a given that she would be evacuated from the building to the ambulance so he could say that he has to clear the path. Thirdly if someone would want her dead she would have already been dead since the young man that was with Neon might have been the reason she lost consciousness. But that's not as bad as Kurapica reaching Chrollo and then going down. If he would really reach him he would not go back until he killed him or died trying no matter what anyone would tell him, especially if it was someone he despised (and probably wanted dead after they would serve their purpose).
In the old version we didn't exactly know what was the reason why he didn't fight him, it might have been as simple as his en not being powerful enough. Less was better in this case because no matter how they would explain it isses as the ones above could arise. On the other hand it provided a topic to discuss within HxH fanbase. As always, old anime staff has shown it understands Togashi's intentions better than the MH crew.

3) Nostrade's scenes
In the manga and in the old anime Nostrade was blinded by rage and wanted Kurapica to kill the person responsible for his daughter's condition while Kurapica expressed that Neon's safety should be the priority. And the scenes with this bodyguard were utterly pointless.
In short, 52nd episode was OK at best because of pointless fillers and cutting Leorio out (one of the best characters in HxH is being marginalized instead of the opposite and soon he will become a complete random). So basically, it was OK only because the rest was epic (no thanks to them but only because Togashi has given them such superb material). MH has shown again how incompetent their staff is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHINOBI-03 View Post
(...) Angry Killua was not shown in Nippon's adaptation (...)
It's another proof that you're completely biased about the old version and can't notice (or don't want to notice) even obvious things.

In fact Nippon's animation is closer to the original. In MH's version he looks as if Kurapica had eaten his chocolates (plus Kanako Mitsuhashi did a great job portraying Killua's irritation).

As for the manipulated guy, it would be pathetic if MH's version would lose again in the animation department so I don't see how it's even worth mentioning. It makes as much sense as comparing Kara no Kyoukai movies with Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Shining Heresy or Darkside Blues. As for not showing the headshot, it would be a waste of frames because of how insignificant this moment was (unlike the moment when Killua put the heart near the killer's body instead of crushing it).

Quote:
Shalnark's ability "Black Voice: Mobile Fate Director" was not named in this scene. Madhouse gave us the name during the Hunterpedia segment.
But Hunterpedia segment isn't part of the anime, right (I'm referring here to people who said that when I brought up the infamous scenes with Gon x Killua moments)?
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Old 2012-10-22, 02:54   Link #80
monir
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Originally Posted by F21 View Post
My claim is that the film masters of the entirety of Nippon Animation's adaptation have been overall poor quality. .
Can you elaborate a bit more on what you are getting at? Is it just the overall animation effort that you're commenting on, or is there more to it?

The main difference between this version and the 1999 in my opinion is the interpretation of the story. Nippon took more liberty at interpreting the story and wrote their script accordingly which didn't hesitate to add to it if they thought it would enhance the story. Madhouse, on the other hand, is very careful at strictly observing the manga at almost word for word. Mind you, they are also adding (filler), but not necessarily to add to the story as Nippon seemed to have done. The dark background setting, for one example, in the Nippon version has more to do with how that studio chose to interpret the story more than anything else.
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