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Old 2012-10-22, 03:35   Link #81
chikkychappy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
Can you elaborate a bit more on what you are getting at? Is it just the overall animation effort that you're commenting on, or is there more to it?
Not about animation at all, but the composition of the series. i.e., the brightness/dullness and the vividness of the colors.

You see there's this process in converting hand-drawn cels to the actual animated thing that is broadcast. F21 is claiming that Nippon animation messed-up either in the converting or the film masters or something to that affect, making it duller than Furuhashi+Nippon Animation+Shueishia+Fuji TV intended (as in it was something they did not anticipate; after all, it was a "fuck-up").

It is because of this "fuck-up" that the auction attack and Danchou vs Zaoldyecks in 1999 were inferior (compared to 2011) because you couldn't "see what was happening".


I hope I was fair in summarizing the issue. You're welcome.
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Old 2012-10-22, 03:41   Link #82
monir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Not about animation at all, but the composition of the series. i.e., the brightness/dullness and the vividness of the colors.

You see there's this process in converting cels to the actual animated thing we watch. F21 is claiming that Nippon animation messed-up either in the converting or the film masters or something to that affect, making it duller than Furuhashi+Nippon Animation+Shueishia+Fuji TV intended (and duller than other hand-drawn animes in the 90s).
I'll wait for her response, but if that's what she means then the process took to animate anything at that time period is misunderstood.
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Old 2012-10-22, 03:51   Link #83
chikkychappy
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Hmm I can't see my (really long) post. Probably something wrong with my internet connection. Good thing I saved a copy. Reposting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Dude, he's been stating his claim for several posts now, don't suddenly pretend you've gone illiterate. That screenshot is in fact, a good example of what he is talking about.
Ah no, I haven't gone illiterate at all. The claim I've heard about a few months ago (from Toto and Shinobi) is that the composition of the series is duller and darker in 1999 and that this was a “fuck-up” by Nippon in the conversion process because the cels are actually much brighter. My reply:

- I gave examples of cels from other animes that aired around those times and showed that they are also brighter compared to the actual broadcast product (if you have watched those animes you will know what I mean).

-But F21 replies that 1999’s composition cannot be attributed to this industry norm back then. Even considering this, F21 says NA’s HxH is unusually dark for its day and that again and that this was a “fuck-up” by 1999. I ask how she can say this was a fuck-up rather than a stylistic choice. She replies, “Because you are not able to see what’s happening.”

a. How can she generalize the composition of the entire series as being a fuck-up because of two scenes that happened only much later in the series (auction attack, Danchou vs Zaoldyecks)? (But in response, I expect her to point-out how earlier scenes like the Manhunt exam is “too dark”. Heh.)

b. Not to mention that this is just her view and that 99% of viewers do not find a problem with the lighting of those scenes?

c. And even if she holds that suspicion (nothing wrong with it, your own life), how can she responsibly state the “fuck-up” being a fact rather than a stylistic choice? What is her basis for making the claim? Did she read any interview/article that alluded to this? Is she an expert that she can immediately spot a “fucked-up” conversion? She already said that she’s not an expert but that the fuck-up is “easy” to deduce. How is it easy to deduce when 99% of viewers don’t have any problem with the lighting, much less think it is a fuck-up?

d. What is too dark for the 90s anyway? It can range from Akazukin Cha Cha to Rurouni Kenshin OVA1. Is 1999 unusually dark that it is a fuck-up? As a non-expert, I can’t tell. I mean, I find Rurouni Kenshin OVA darker than 1999 so does this mean that RK’s conversion is also a fuck-up? How can an average person like me tell for sure that I am so confident to parade it as fact? Is it when you can’t see what’s happening on the screen? But what if most viewers report seeing what’s happening just fine?

e. Furuhashi, Nippon Animation, Shueishia, Fuji TV and other experienced staff members involved and they “fuck-up” something as basic as series composition. They did not also bother correcting it midway through the series, in fact it got even darker as it went along.

f. Which makes the transition from OVA 1 to GI being an “evidence” for F21’s claim even more amusing. Was 1999’s composition really a mistake? Was GI the true intended outcome? Then why wasn’t it corrected in OVA 1? OVA 1 is just as dark, maybe even darker.


The simple solution is that we take the more rational explanation that there was a different staff working on it, there was a change in ballgame from handdrawn to digital, that the brighter scheme was a shift in stylistic choice by (again) a different staff with the view that GI is an arc about a game. Consequently, the 1999 and OVA 1 staff did their job well as good professionals do. Yes, there’s a difference between cel quality and actual broadcast quality, but that was due to the technological limitations of the time, something that other companies and series were also subject to.

Simple really, so why do we still have to resort to spouting this nonsense against the 1999 series? I don’t even care about how bright the room is in episode 52 FFS.


Anyway that was long-winded, but Dengar, my point is that the supposed poor quality of conversion being a fuck-up by NA is something I’ve heard before and continue to dispute. What is new to me that the 1999 was so dark “it was so hard to see what was happening” during the fight and the auction attack. Add to that the "seizure-inducing effects" and "animation stuttering." Also, unlike the post above, this is not really a factual claim but one of impression. Were the scenes truly too dark for the viewers to see? Were the bright lights really so jarring that they can be considered seizure-inducing if you had epilepsy? I've said it over and over again, but in my 10 years as an HxH fan I’ve never heard of this complaint. It’s a “problem” that was just invented now.


But sheesh, that was tiring. Calling it a day.


Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I'll wait for her response, but if that's what she means then the process took to animate anything at that time period is misunderstood.
Not an expert so I might have missed something along translation. But the gist is:
>cel = brighter than broadcast quality
>nippon animation fucked-up


By the way F21, I finally got to see the videos. So you meant the actual clips, I already compared them yesterday. Anyway, can you edit your link for the 1999 version? This video has waaay better quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUw55rnjoe8

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-22 at 04:15.
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Old 2012-10-22, 04:38   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monir View Post
I'll wait for her response, but if that's what she means then the process took to animate anything at that time period is misunderstood.
I meant exactly what I said. The film masters are of poor quality. They start off ok, but the quality degrades as the series continues. I don't think it's too far a stretch to call this a "fuck up", considering that is exactly what it is. I have no idea why people are calling it a "stylistic choice" - there is absolutely nothing to suggest that it is such.

How can you call a scene so dark you can't tell what's going on a stylistic choice? Or a scene that's blurry and grainy? Or animation with stuttering flashes that have no place being there?

These are not features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
It’s a “problem” that was just invented now.
These are problems that have always existed, but you refuse to see. Take your much clearer video as an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUw55rnjoe8

At around 2:37 - 2:38, the entire scene starts flashing
And again between 6:02 - 6:04.
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Old 2012-10-22, 04:52   Link #85
chikkychappy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F21 View Post
These are problems that have always existed, but you refuse to see. Take your much clearer video as an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUw55rnjoe8

At around 2:37 - 2:38, the entire scene starts flashing
And again between 6:02 - 6:04.
Come on F21, let's not oversimplify the issue.

When I said "It’s a 'problem' that was just invented now", I meant that a month (hey, let's even say a week) before episode 52 was aired I have heard NO ONE make this complaint. After all, wasn't the crux of your argument that the "poor quality" of 1999 easy to deduce? You're not an expert after all, just like me. So this observation does not need an expert eye.

So no, I'm not referring to scene itself. Of course what you see there will always "have been there" because as far as I can tell, the video has not changed since it was first uploaded to the internet perhaps 9 years ago.

But now it turns out that I "refuse" to see it? What if I tell you that 99% of those who have seen 1999 do not see it as well? What if I tell you that you are the only one who did, and you "saw" it probably just a month ago (a week ago?) after the series has been in existence for more than a decade now?

And did you just seriously call 2:37 - 2:38 and 6:02 - 6:04 as seizure-inducing flashing that have no place being there? Uhm, okay.

I have made many other points as well by the way. The scope of the discussion that is worth more the effort replying to than my refusal "to see the problems" of 1999. It will be a shame for the discussion to be oversimplified to this personal attack.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-22 at 05:08.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:01   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F21 View Post
Here's another comparison between the Chrollo V Zeno & Silva scene.

Nippon Animation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNH4zodURxc

Madhouse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hTta0c4V30
Funnily enough, I find both versions just as meh. Though I guess Nippon had less static animation, while Madhouse had better colours.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:08   Link #87
chikkychappy
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F21,

I don't think it's not too much to ask but please edit your post to reflect the better quality video.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:09   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
Come on F21, let's not oversimplify the issue.
There is no issue here. I'm simply stating what I believe to be true, and I have provided the necessary evidence. People have always said the series is 'dark', and they're not always talking about the atmosphere - I gave a explanation, one that makes much more sense than "stylistic choice" or whatever it is you keep rabbiting on about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
What if I tell you that 99% of those who have seen 1999 do not see it as well? What if I tell you that you are the only one who did, and you "saw" it probably just a month ago (a week ago?) after the series has been in existence for more than a decade now?
"99%" is a over-generalization and statistic you have pulled out of your ass, I'm officially calling you on it. People have always complained that some scenes are too dark or too washed or too blurred. Maybe not on this specific forum (the hell would I know, I've only been here for a month). I'm also not new to the series. I wasn't watching it back in 1999 but I assure you I was re-watching it by the time the 2011 series came out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
And did you just seriously call 2:37 - 2:38 and 6:02 - 6:04 as seizure-inducing flashing? I, uhm, okay. I have made many other points as well by the way. The scope of the discussion is much bigger than my refusal "to see the problems" of 1999.
Yes, there's frame stuttering. I admit "seizure-inducing" was a (joke) overstatement. But it exists, and it's a mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikkychappy View Post
It will be a shame for the discussion to be oversimplified to this personal attack
WHAT?! I haven't personally attacked you once.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:25   Link #89
chikkychappy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F21 View Post
People have always complained that some scenes are too dark or too washed or too blurred. Maybe not on this specific forum (The hell would I know, I've only been here for a month). I'm also not new to the series. I wasn't watching it back in 1999 but I assure you I was re-watching it by the time the 2011 series came out.
People have always complained? Then show me posts (again, edited posts are null and void). How many times have I asked you in this very thread? You've provided nothing.

And no, referring to parts of the video and declare the stuttering of a frame and as a mistake is not an "evidence." I have seen the same scene over 50 times already and in my view it's a stylistic choice. I haven't heard anyone say that the stuttering was a mistake either for the past 10 years. Your word is no more credible than ours; just because you declare something to be so, doesn't mean it is. So really, what evidence?

Anyway this is obviously a done issue. F21 hasn't even replied to my other more relevant arguments. She made a big claim and the burden is on her to prove it. So far nothing.

Back to living my life.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-22 at 05:51.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:34   Link #90
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Final post on the matter

Look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqHObo1yvyg

Look at the flashing at 4-10 seconds. It is much worse than in episode 62's. Is this a mistake too? Is the entire series a mistake? Did Furuhashi, Fuji TV and Studio Gallop fuck-up? Derp.

Absurd claim is absurd, and unfortunately this isn't the first time such claims have been made against the 1999 series.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-22 at 07:54.
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Old 2012-10-22, 06:00   Link #91
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Ugh..You're right about one thing - this is a done issue. I wish I hadn't brought it up at all.

You disregard everything I have to say under the pretense that I'm using an assumed identity and handwave any evidence I provide.

But you might be right; maybe Nippon Animation did this intentionally:


Case closed, right?
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Old 2012-10-22, 06:45   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F21 View Post
My claim is valid. I'll have to steal one of SHINOBI-03's images to demonstrate this:
Here's another example of bad masters. You can't see the projected aura on her shoulder.



But here's an example of unnecessary change. They made the room dark so they can make Killua "hide" in the dark instead of adapting the scene as it is and show Rythm Echo.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I find it hilarious that whenever MH adds fillers users here praise them but at the same time they criticize Nippon's ones (even though they fit perfectly, e.g. when Kurapica says that Gon has his own objective or when Hisoka was pretty sure that Gon would make it to the next phase of the exam or the hilarious Leorio scene in episode 61 when Leorio took the phone and Kurapica hang up on him at that moment or when in episode 7 Kurapica wasn't shown as a coward like in the new anime or the manga or not showing Tonpa's true face, etc.). MH fillers for once weren't awful, ALTHOUGH they were there to hand-hold the viewer and explain some things explicitly. Still, they served no purpose story-wise (unlike 1999 ones).
The problem with the 1999 filler was the unnecessary character development and most of the time it gave inconsistent portrait for the characters. I'm not saying it's all bad, but most of them are. The 2011 filler tries to expand the universe but without being inconsistent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
1) Gon + Killua scene
Why did they even choose a subway if it added nothing? It was a change for the sake of changes to show they can do more than copying/pasting frames from the manga. Plus the train stopping didn't make any sense, attacks were on the surface and a subway station would be more safe than in the middle of the route for various reasons (since the risk of other train crashing into this one would become even smaller - not that it would be big in the first place, there are safety mechanisms for that but it's never good for a train to stop in the middle of a route where trains usually reach maximum speed - plus there would be no risk of panic). And hey, it's dark in the metro/subway so it's shit right?


It was unnecessary, but my guess they wanted to show us how is the surrounding areas are doing with the attacks that are happening. As for the darkness in the subway, like I said: If you're going to make it dark, make it in a way we can see what's going on and not making it pitch black.



It's dark here, but we can see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
It's another proof that you're completely biased about the old version and can't notice (or don't want to notice) even obvious things.

In fact Nippon's animation is closer to the original. In MH's version he looks as if Kurapica had eaten his chocolates (plus Kanako Mitsuhashi did a great job portraying Killua's irritation).

He was angry twice during the call. The first was after he got told to stay out of Kurapika's business (not seen in the 1999 version), and the second which is the picture you've posted when he was yelling at him in return.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
2) Kurapica's scenes
They have distorted the way he was being presented in the manga. Kurapica being held up by Nostrade has presented him as someone unresorceful which is not true at all. Even if he was ordered to stay with Neon he would give Nostrade a handful of good arguments to do otherwise so he could go after the spider. Firstly, a powerful nen user like himself would be like a beacon so Neon would be more at risk if he was there (Nostrade wouldn't have to know about zetsu). Secondly, it was a given that she would be evacuated from the building to the ambulance so he could say that he has to clear the path. Thirdly if someone would want her dead she would have already been dead since the young man that was with Neon might have been the reason she lost consciousness. But that's not as bad as Kurapica reaching Chrollo and then going down. If he would really reach him he would not go back until he killed him or died trying no matter what anyone would tell him, especially if it was someone he despised (and probably wanted dead after they would serve their purpose).
In the old version we didn't exactly know what was the reason why he didn't fight him, it might have been as simple as his en not being powerful enough. Less was better in this case because no matter how they would explain it isses as the ones above could arise. On the other hand it provided a topic to discuss within HxH fanbase. As always, old anime staff has shown it understands Togashi's intentions better than the MH crew.

3) Nostrade's scenes
In the manga and in the old anime Nostrade was blinded by rage and wanted Kurapica to kill the person responsible for his daughter's condition while Kurapica expressed that Neon's safety should be the priority. And the scenes with this bodyguard were utterly pointless.
Kurapika's main mission was to hunt the Spiders, but that changed to protecting Neon after her gambit. The guards didn't allow the ambulance to pass at first but they had to as ordered by Nostrade. And since there was a Spider on the loose in the same building he couldn't afford to leave her for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
But Hunterpedia segment isn't part of the anime, right (I'm referring here to people who said that when I brought up the infamous scenes with Gon x Killua moments)?
But they still provide information that were not mentioned in the episode.

Last edited by SHINOBI-03; 2012-10-22 at 07:04.
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:19   Link #93
chikkychappy
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I have no time currently for more shenanigans. I will reply to you this weekend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by F21 View Post

You disregard everything I have to say under the pretense that I'm using an assumed identity and handwave any evidence I provide.
Handwave any evidence? I just disproved your silly "animation stuttering claim." I have also repeatedly challenged you to provide me posts (more than a month old, no edits, there must be a way of verifying that the time stamped wasn't doctored) that people "have always complained" about the composition of the 1999 series, about being difficult to see anything, the "mistake" in the animation stuttering, etc etc. You haven't given anything.

The only thing I missed was this single screenshot. But don't worry, I will deal with the screenshot you posted as well as the others Shinobi posted this weekend, wait for it.

It's also funny how you are making a big deal out of a single screenshot when you ignored much of my arguments in this post:

Spoiler:



Edit: Wait wait, I disregarded everything you said because I presumed your identity? I just threw the Toto = F21 thing once as an offhand comment and never referred back to it again. I don't care if you're Toto or not, it has nothing to do with my response. I think you are, but it doesn't really matter to me.

And it's funny how quick you were to relating Goty's post ("And glad to see more and more people are onto "him". I just hope they won't punish anyone else for it.") to my offhand comment. I myself didn't make the connection and pretty much just ignored Goty's statement, since I thought it was pretty vague and I wasn't sure what Goty was trying to say. You're pretty sharp for someone who just joined this month and who had only five posts then. (And let me remind you that it is you who brought this topic up.)

Quote:

Case closed, right?
Yup case closed. You're grasping at straws now.

Last edited by chikkychappy; 2012-10-22 at 09:14.
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Old 2012-10-22, 15:46   Link #94
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I love me some HxH and I have to say the original was easily superior to the new anime. This episode was a big letdown.
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Old 2012-10-22, 17:55   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
I find it hilarious that whenever MH adds fillers users here praise them but at the same time they criticize Nippon's ones (even though they fit perfectly, e.g. when Kurapica says that Gon has his own objective or when Hisoka was pretty sure that Gon would make it to the next phase of the exam or the hilarious Leorio scene in episode 61 when Leorio took the phone and Kurapica hang up on him at that moment or when in episode 7 Kurapica wasn't shown as a coward like in the new anime or the manga or not showing Tonpa's true face, etc.). MH fillers for once weren't awful, ALTHOUGH they were there to hand-hold the viewer and explain some things explicitly. Still, they served no purpose story-wise (unlike 1999 ones).

...
Yeah. See, i think the problem with this thread (and Toto's comparisons) is that they aren't actual comparisons, but more like a weekly "why we should like the Madhouse version more" rant. Even if he needs to cheat, like omitting scenes actually present in the Nippon anime (such as the ones you've mentioned) or selecting the worst possible screenshots to fit his points. Not to mention the amusingly biased view of fillers.

I think people who want a honest comparison should just do it themselves - watch the two versions and if possible, read the manga. That's better than relying on unfair views.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-10-23 at 11:26. Reason: Off-topic bit removed and lets NOT continue it.
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Old 2012-10-22, 19:56   Link #96
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Look, I HAVE read the manga, and the NA version left me a little mixed, let's not talk about the characterization of the characters. On the other hand, I have thoroughly enjoyed the MH version, in despite of its flaws, and because the pacing is better to me. There is also the fact that some of my favorite seiyuus, namely Sawashiro and Fujiwara, are in this one.
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Old 2012-10-23, 10:13   Link #97
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Also, since people seem to be unaware of what 'facts' we are talking about.

Spoiler for Repetitiveness:


Can you tell me what's happening in this picture? Because I sure can't.

I am not dissing the old series. I -LIKE- the old series. But I'm getting kind of tired of people pretending certain flaws don't exist.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-10-23 at 11:28. Reason: Off-topic bit removed and let's just let it drop.
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Old 2012-10-23, 15:29   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goty View Post

I think people who want a honest comparison should just do it themselves - watch the two versions and if possible, read the manga. That's better than relying on unfair views.
No, they should read the manga, and then watch the two adaptations.

Doing so would make quite clear why one's filler is better than another.
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Old 2012-10-23, 15:59   Link #99
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Might be better than another. It's still an opinion which may differ from person to person.

Here's a thought, though, why don't you add stuff that seems to be missing. Because Shinobi's comparisons, although in terms of comments not devoid of bias, is pretty extensive and covers most aspects of both series AND the manga and makes it PERFECTLY possible to form your own opinion about them.
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Old 2012-10-23, 18:57   Link #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Also, since people seem to be unaware of what 'facts' we are talking about.

Spoiler for Repetitiveness:


Can you tell me what's happening in this picture? Because I sure can't.

I am not dissing the old series. I -LIKE- the old series. But I'm getting kind of tired of people pretending certain flaws don't exist.
Those are bad masters. Why are you people using it as criticism when he has more to do with the fact that there's no retoration for the film than Nippon's own mistake?
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