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Old 2012-10-21, 21:46   Link #81
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberchu View Post
Did someone compare Tari Tari to LOGH? imo, that's comparing apples to oranges. You really can't say Inception was a better movie than, say, Hot Tub Time Machine because they're of completely different genres. If you want to compare two series you really have to compare between genres.
Indeed. But as you said, since you can't really compare them, it also effectively pointed out that not all premise were created 'equal'. Some premises do have more potential than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
At the end of the day, basically, a promise of "good execution" may be enough to help people overcome their misgivings about a show's initial premise. Perhaps sort of like "I don't usually like shows about <x>, but I have to admit this one was really well done." And even for people who do like a certain genre or concept already, "good execution" may cause an already-enjoyable show to become one that is cherished or often re-watched. Outside of this sort of internal fandom war where every show is in competition with each other ("There can be only one!"), what it really comes down to is: "Am I likely to enjoy this show?" So I think that's really what this so-called "execution effect" is all about: it can elevate a premise beyond its pre-conceived constraints.
Or botch it or simply came out somewhat short, if the execution wasn't well enough done. You should already know how I think about the premise of currently airing SAO not being brought to its fullest potential.

Also, execution can't be about "Am I likely to enjoy this show?", that's the work of the premise. I think it's more like "how much will I enjoy this show?", which implies the watcher already has expectations from the premise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Incidentally, as a sort of side topic, one of the risks that an anime has is having its premise misjudged based on what is shown in the early episodes. And once that perceived establishing of the premise occurs, people will be judging the execution of the show based on that perception of the premise. While there are certain objective qualities that may define shows with "good execution", so much of it is still subjective as it relates to the viewer's perception of the premise. So, shows where the premise evolves (or the central theme wasn't totally clear from the get-go) tend to provoke a lot of controversy, because they can tend to attract a lot of unmet expectations.
Spoiler for Comparison with Madoka and SAO:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2012-10-22 at 00:33. Reason: Added spoiler tag for comparisons
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:49   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
This is present in the west in Hollywood. Look at what typically wins the Oscars every year, and then go look what the best selling movies were of each year. They're almost never the same, but a select group of professionals valued certain titles more
I'm really not sure bringing up the academy awards is a good example of people looking for original premises.If there was an "anime oscars" event I feel comfortable in saying that Tari Tari would be complete oscar bait (meanwhile Shin sekai yori would be totally overlooked because it's sci fi)
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Old 2012-10-21, 21:55   Link #83
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I'm really not sure bringing up the academy awards is a good example of people looking for original premises.If there was an "anime oscars" event I feel comfortable in saying that Tari Tari would be complete oscar bait (meanwhile Shin sekai yori would be totally overlooked because it's sci fi)
Well the comparison is limited in a superficial sense, but this wasn't what I was trying to get at. Almost no anime would be oscar bait. Things like Tari Tari don't even really exist in Hollywood beyond your standard disney channel movies .
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Old 2012-10-21, 23:16   Link #84
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A lot of people used the Burger vs Filet Mignon analogy in the Tari Tari thread. The later has more potential to be interesting. Sure both can be great, but the later generally starts at an advantage on becoming exceptional. Of course, you might actually prefer the burger like me but for a burger to be truly outstanding would require unique execution.

I would say that the more mundane series like Tari Tari had less wiggle room in case of mishaps. If it failed to grip one's attention, it would have been disposed as one of many school life series and never to be remember again. On the other hand, something like Psycho-Pass, even if it does explode in a ball of flame will just have more to talk about. There's just more incentive to follow it.

Let's take Sword Art Online. I ended up dropping it because I didn't like how it handled its concepts, but the world it created was enough to keep me asking a few questions and wondering what would happen next. I still watched it to about the halfway point. I guarantee you that a school comedy series that I do not like the way it handles gets dropped within a few episodes. Even something like Toradora of which I already noted it had above average writing and being fairly distinct from your typical highschool romcom failed to keep my interest for more than a few episodes. In the case of SAO, I just didn't see an anime like it anywhere else aside from its sister series Accel World, so it was only natural that I'd continue on.

Or let's take an extreme example. Umineko. Sure the adaptation was umm... questionable, but it kept me guessing on how stupid it could get every week. It was a unique experience to say the least. The exotic premise just gave it that much leeway, even though nobody would tell you that Studio Deen did anything remotely resuming good execution.

So yes, it's just an uphill struggle for the mundane. They just have to work harder to stand out. What's good or not is subjective, but bias is unavoidable. Hell, let's just take the entire medium of anime. How many of you started picking up anime, because there was something in it that was different from your local media? I can say I have. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt.

But one has to understand, I'm not saying some genres are inherently superior. Some series will fill a need that can change from time to time. Sometimes you don't want a heavy series, you might want to just relax and go for something more simple and easily digested. Sure, the writing in Clannad would never hold a candle to say Madoka or Evangelion, but when I'm in a bad mood, the former is much easier to enjoy. So what's the better anime? It just became really situational, didn't it?
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Old 2012-10-22, 00:47   Link #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Yeah a good work by default requires strong execution. What makes a good work great though? I am saying that lies in the very essence of its story, which something like Tari Tari could never hope to achieve due to the limits it placed on itself through its premise.
It can still be great. But it will be great within its box. You make that sound like it's some sort of condemnation, but there's a place for great genre pieces. And to someone who's a fan of that genre, it could very well end up being their favourite work overall. This concept of "greatness" as some sort of universal gauge of "The Absolute Best Anime Of All Time" is, in my view, somewhat over-played. I don't think it really matters to many people, though it causes lots of arguments in fan circles.


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I really did like that diving analogy someone used earlier, though you didn't agree with it and thought it was more like ice skating.
I think the diving analogy is okay, but I think it's a bit too straightforward -- it lacks nuance. Ice Skating is a form of interpretive dance that involves both creative planning and good technical execution over the course of an entire program, so I think has a bit more parallels here. An ice skating program can also have multiple "acts" in some cases, and that too may be a good analogy for some anime that go through multiple narrative "movements" over the course of the show.


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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
So yes, it's just an uphill struggle for the mundane. They just have to work harder to stand out. What's good or not is subjective, but bias is unavoidable. Hell, let's just take the entire medium of anime. How many of you started picking up anime, because there was something in it that was different from your local media? I can say I have. Familiarity sometimes breeds contempt.
I did, but I think it wasn't just because the element was different itself. In other words, what I was looking for wasn't just "Something Different (nondescript)", but rather "Something In Particular, Different".

But this is like with food (you brought it up again... )... I don't tend to go to restaurants very often, but when I do I usually order the same or similar things that I know I like. I might go to that restaurant just because I'm craving that one particular thing I usually order there. But I know some people who think that's a waste, and always try to order something new every time because they want to try everything and they value new experiences. I guess I'm a little more risk-adverse in that way.

So again, I think it is really "situational", as you said, but also personal. People who are always seeking only "the extraordinary" (regardless of other qualifications) will have different preferences than people who are just trying to satisfy their cravings for some particular thing. Neither approach is inherently better (though I think people who are "seeking the extraordinary" have a much harder task of it -- too much work for me. ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Or botch it or simply came out somewhat short, if the execution wasn't well enough done. You should already know how I think about the premise of currently airing SAO not being brought to its fullest potential.
I don't know if this is botched execution, but I do think it's a case where the premise-apparent was assumed too quickly by the audience, for better or worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Spoiler for Comparison with Madoka and SAO:
Spoiler for Comparison with Madoka and SAO:


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Also, execution can't be about "Am I likely to enjoy this show?", that's the work of the premise. I think it's more like "how much will I enjoy this show?", which implies the watcher already has expectations from the premise.
I meant that "Am I likely to enjoy the show?" is the overriding, most critical question, regardless of "premise" or "execution". Premise is usually what convinces you to watch, but "promise of good execution" (through reviews or recommendations) can influence you if you're considering watching a show later on. But yeah, the key question (at least in my view) is really to know whether you should watch something, and so I guess the second question is whether you'd recommend the experience to others (and with what qualifications).
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Old 2012-10-22, 02:26   Link #86
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Why do the most interesting arguments pop up whenever I am the most busy?

I'll have much more to say in the future, but in summary I have some general thoughts. From a "critics" point of view, I think very generally it goes something like this:

A simple premise with solid execution is better than one that aims to be ambitious but falls flat on its face.
An ambitious premise with poor execution is better than one with a simple and/or cliche premise that also falls flat on its face.
The best premises are those with interesting and ambitious premises and had have the solid execution. If these also have the popularity to back it up, then these are typically known as "blockbusters" and are common candidates as "favourites" for many.

However, this is very basic and doesn't take into account factors such as "target audiences" and "timing" (some shows are very lucky during when it airs, whilst others are very unlucky. Consider the phrase "flavour of the month", the term "trends" and the positives and negatives that come with it.) "Universal appeal" is also another underrated aspect. Do you think series like Madoka, Evangelion or Fate/Zero is going to have the same universal appeal (and I mean non-anime watchers) as say movies by Studio Ghibli or Mamoru Hosoda? I think not.

When it comes to recommendations, then "blockbusters" type series are a safe bet unless you specifically know what type of series the person you are recommending too likes. I might have loved last season's Tari Tari, Hyouka and Jinrui, but 9 times out of 10 I'll recommend Fate/Zero if someone I didn't really know asked for recommendations assuming they are a regular anime watcher. If not, then Studio Ghibli films it is.

But from a personal point of view though, I can effectively throw this "critics" view out the window as I value enjoyment and attachment to the series' premise and/or characters more than how "ambitious it is". Sometimes I love a series based on its "epicness" such as Madoka Magica of last year or oriental fantasy Seirei no Motibito, and sometimes I love it because of how heartwarming, genuine and pure-natured it was such as Usagi Drop or Tari Tari despite being a "simple" premise. Sometimes I like all out style like I did with Cowboy Bebop or recently with the Redline film. It depends on what works for you and personal favourite need no "objective" or "critical" reasoning, you love it for what they are because there's too much reasoning (some probably illogical) to try to explain. Whether I go telling off the world that and recommend these over the series that "many" consider great though is another question as that depends on the person.

EDIT:

If considering just this season, and for what has aired for the moment, I'm loving From The New World for the "ambitious premise with solid execution" category from the very first episode. However, Psycho-Pass I'm not quite buying (perhaps I'm getting a bit bored of Gen's "dark" antics which is starting to be predictable) but it's too early to tell atm. Conversely, I'm loving both shojos - My Little Monster and Say I love you. The former because it's been an incredibly long time (probably since Nodame Cantabile ended) since I enjoyed a great shojo romcom (yes I'm aware NC is josei, and Chihayafuru wasn't exactly a comedy) and both leads are great as they both bash each others heads . For the latter, it's because it's a simple but very authentic shojo teen romance but unlike a -certain- recent one, doesn't have rainbows and innocence glitter spraying out of its ass and is more in line to what made me love Kare Kano and Bokura ga Ita.

Very difficult to say what I like the best out of the lot because 1. It's way too early and 2. I don't care about "critics" point of view when it comes to "potential favourites" be it all-time, for the year or of a particular season.
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Old 2012-10-22, 02:42   Link #87
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Another issue is that shows with rarer or broader "premise" are generally more difficult to execute well. Exotic premises are hard to pull off because there's little previous work that the crew can look at for reference, while the ideas and issues in broad premises are difficult to tie together in a cohesive manner. If they did get executed well, however, then it is easier for the viewer to deem the work as being great as opposed to just good.

From a statistical point of view, series with rarer or broader premise have larger variance and could end up anywhere, while those with common premise tend to fail less but generally don't achieve greatness. Perhaps that's why premise is important when convincing someone to start watching a particular series - because there is higher probability of the series being great.

At the same time, given that series with common premise tend to be more difficult to achieve the level of greatness since its execution has to be really sublime in order to differentiate it from all previous similar work, then when such a series actually does become great, it would start to attract attention because such shows are so rare.
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Old 2012-10-22, 03:36   Link #88
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Take Spirited Away, for example, it comes in handy with all the Oscars talk. The premise is the simplest thing ever: little girl gets sucked into a magical world out of nowhere.
The real meat of the film lies in the world constructed by Miyazaki, its liveliness, its quirky characters, and the astonishing visual representation of it feat. Studio Ghibli. Such an amazing film couldn't be done without a plethora of incredibly talented artists working their fullest to develop this initially "tired" premise into an Award winner.

There are many anime that develop magical worlds like Spirited Away does, but I don't think there are many (if at all) that have the same charm. And for me, that lies in the direction, the animation, and the creativity of Miyazaki for designing this kind of settings. That's the "execution" effect OP was referring to at full power.
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Old 2012-10-22, 04:02   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Take Spirited Away, for example, it comes in handy with all the Oscars talk. The premise is the simplest thing ever: little girl gets sucked into a magical world out of nowhere.
The real meat of the film lies in the world constructed by Miyazaki, its liveliness, its quirky characters, and the astonishing visual representation of it feat. Studio Ghibli. Such an amazing film couldn't be done without a plethora of incredibly talented artists working their fullest to develop this initially "tired" premise into an Award winner.
How is that a tired premise? I honestly can't think of many anime shows or movies that are about a little girl (just one little girl, nobody else) getting sucked into a magical world out of nowhere.

Sure, western fiction has Alice in Wonderland and Dorothy in Oz, but I can't think of many anime that have the same basic premise as Spirited Away does.

But just look at that, two of the most popular and timeless narratives of all-time (Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz) share the same basic premise with the critically acclaimed Spirited Away. Maybe that speaks to the strength of the "little girl gets sucked into a magical world out of nowhere" premise.

In fact, that premise, like Star Trek's, is open to a literal world of possibilities. It may be a simple premise, but it's potential scope is massive.
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Old 2012-10-22, 04:28   Link #90
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Any premise has a potentially massive scope, since we're talking about fiction and an author can do whatever the hell he pleases with his work.

But I don't really care that much about the premise. Take that premise, the full plot, the characters' profiles, and the narrative themes of the work, have them portrayed in a completely uninteresting and bland way, and it will be completely forgettable.
Have any sort of combination of the above elements, done with a superb technical prowess and a good directorial taste, and it can evolve into something else entirely.
I don't consider Aria inferior to LOGH or Mind Game for example, they're completely different beasts. Saying that one or the other is better because its "premise" was better by definition strikes me as very obtuse.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:13   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How is that a tired premise? I honestly can't think of many anime shows or movies that are about a little girl (just one little girl, nobody else) getting sucked into a magical world out of nowhere.

Sure, western fiction has Alice in Wonderland and Dorothy in Oz, but I can't think of many anime that have the same basic premise as Spirited Away does.

But just look at that, two of the most popular and timeless narratives of all-time (Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz) share the same basic premise with the critically acclaimed Spirited Away. Maybe that speaks to the strength of the "little girl gets sucked into a magical world out of nowhere" premise.

In fact, that premise, like Star Trek's, is open to a literal world of possibilities. It may be a simple premise, but it's potential scope is massive.
Not many people (i am not just limiting to little girls, because the point of the premise is the magical world)who gets sucked in a magical world in animes? Fuushi Yuugi, Inuyasha, Tsubasa Chronicles (although it's not completely entirely out of nowhere), Dog Days, Rayearth, sengoku otome and i could go on >_>

It's true that it has been less common these days, but that does not mean it's not overused in animes.

As for more western fiction, this has been more overused. From literature like Narnia to even children cartoons like captain N. There are many more examples but it's easy enough without my help.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:21   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How is that a tired premise? I honestly can't think of many anime shows or movies that are about a little girl (just one little girl, nobody else) getting sucked into a magical world out of nowhere.

Sure, western fiction has Alice in Wonderland and Dorothy in Oz, but I can't think of many anime that have the same basic premise as Spirited Away does.

But just look at that, two of the most popular and timeless narratives of all-time (Alice in Wonderland and The Wizard of Oz) share the same basic premise with the critically acclaimed Spirited Away. Maybe that speaks to the strength of the "little girl gets sucked into a magical world out of nowhere" premise.

In fact, that premise, like Star Trek's, is open to a literal world of possibilities. It may be a simple premise, but it's potential scope is massive.
Well, there's something that balances out scope, and that's "attention to detail". Given the same amount of resources, a broader scope story will get a shallower treatment. (And the human attention span is limited.)

Also, we're moving up and down the abstraction ladder with little discipline, and as a result, I have no idea what we're really talking about. Your clarification attempt a couple of pages ago didn't help, either.

For example: "a little girl (just one little girl, nobody else) getting sucked into a magical world" is a specification of a more general formula. I can run wild with it:

AI with a nanobot body who can assume any form at will (but whose two defaults are humanoid male/female) gets sucked into a world where sexual reproduction is unknown and the dominant sentient life form consists of amoeba-colonies with a group mind each.

It's something I haven't seen before, but it's still the same formula, and the points of departure ideally define what the story's going to be about.

You can add strictures and remove strictures at will. Highschool romance comedy already has three: "romance plot", "highschool setting", "comedy mood".

But no matter how many strictures you impose, there's still a lot you can do with the variables.

I don't disagree that some genres have more variation possibilities, but in practice that's rarely going to matter much.

(And if you're going to argue success [as with Star Trek], I'd say that soap operas have beat them all. Especially daily soaps. )
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Old 2012-10-22, 06:21   Link #93
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Not many people (i am not just limiting to little girls, because the point of the premise is the magical world)who gets sucked in a magical world in animes? Fuushi Yuugi, Inuyasha, Tsubasa Chronicles (although it's not completely entirely out of nowhere), Dog Days, Rayearth, sengoku otome and i could go on >_>

It's true that it has been less common these days, but that does not mean it's not overused in animes.

As for more western fiction, this has been more overused. From literature like Narnia to even children cartoons like captain N. There are many more examples but it's easy enough without my help.
I think what Triple_R meant was that a premise like that isn't as restricted as let's say, a High School Romcom Harem so in essence, Spirited Away really isn't the "best" anime to explain what an anime that has the "execution effect" since it's fairly out there in terms of what it is and the like.

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Any premise has a potentially massive scope, since we're talking about fiction and an author can do whatever the hell he pleases with his work.
I'd disagree with this especially, as I said above, when it comes to premises like a high school romance or even a shonen battle series. An author can do whatever the hell he pleases but with an overcrowded genre/premise, he'll have to look for different routes or use the route in a more refined way to be different.

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I don't consider Aria inferior to LOGH or Mind Game for example, they're completely different beasts. Saying that one or the other is better because its "premise" was better by definition strikes me as very obtuse.
This is exactly where the "execution effect" comes into play or imo what you enjoyed better.
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Old 2012-10-22, 12:46   Link #94
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The way I see it, anime has three main elements: anime production (direction, artwork, animation, music), writing, and story concept. I guess the latter two would be the "execution" that's discussed in this thread.

Of these three, it's easiest to separate good from poor production. While there can be some disagreement due to different tastes, it's generally straightforward to see that a show has a good budget and well-crafted visuals and music. Good writing is more nebulous, and is sometimes hard to make out if the production isn't very good. It does happen from time to time, and the results can be quite pleasing. These elements

While bad story concepts are easy to identify, I have no real idea how to tell what a good story concept is. While you can have a novel concept, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be any good. Likewise, a very derivative story concept can still be used to make a pretty good show. Then again, I'm not sure what this has to do with originality to begin with. Can someone articulate what makes for a good premise?

Personally, while there's story concepts that can turn me towards or away from a show, it has little to do with how good the show is. For example, Girls und Panzer is a totally derivative show with only one novel concept: tanks. I happen to love tanks and tank trivia, so I'm enjoying quite a bit. It's not a very good show despite decent production values because the writing isn't all that good. Sengoku Collection has one of the most insipid premises ever - a game where female versions of Sengoku daimyo and samurai fight for secret treasures. Yet it still managed to get creative writing and production, churning out some really good episodes in the process. Zetsuen no Tempest has a rather bad premise and the writing is pretty awful, but it's still entertaining despite that because the action and choreography is good.

In short, I don't think that the premise of an anime is all that important. The most it can do is to turn me off a show, but that generally has more to do with being uninterested in the way the premise is tackled than anything else.

For the OP, Azumanga Daioh is one of the most prosaic premises imaginable:
Girls have wacky semi-adventures in high school. Highlights include talking about hiccups, having sleepovers and playing in a park.
It's still a damned good show because of its other qualities.
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Old 2012-10-22, 12:58   Link #95
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I can't help but notice a common element in what people commonly deride as bad premises... Not all of them, but the majority of them.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:13   Link #96
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I can't help but notice a common element in what people commonly deride as bad premises... Not all of them, but the majority of them.
Can you elaborate? That would be pretty interesting to discuss.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:18   Link #97
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It ties back into the subject of my previous thread. Any show that people think is "otaku-focused", while being "safer" (as alluded to earlier in this thread), also seems to have more of an uphill battle to prove itself worthy, and is more likely to be discarded quickly. I've already discussed it at length before, but seeing most of the series in here, that's the common thread running through them.
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Old 2012-10-22, 15:44   Link #98
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I wouldn't be surprised if this was because there are more otaku-oriented shows made and watched than anything else. While there are some otaku genres that are rife with weak or derivative premises, that's true for other kinds of shows. I could have just as easily used the Nth iteration of Pretty Cure as an example. And I'm sure that if more children's shows were watched, we'd have lots more examples from there!

And that's not all - there's lots of genres like shoujo romance or sports shows that tend to use familiar templates as well. Lots of shows come to mind!
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Old 2012-10-22, 15:47   Link #99
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A fair point. I may have let my own personal biases interfere a bit there.
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Old 2012-10-23, 07:09   Link #100
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Not many people (i am not just limiting to little girls, because the point of the premise is the magical world)
No, the magical world is not the only point of the premise. A show that has just one person whisked into a magical world is fundamentally different than a show that has multiple people whisked into a magical world. The reason being that the lone individual has a much harder situation to cope with: They have nobody with them who shares their current situation, and so they have to make due on their own devices. Furthermore, the lone individual does not enjoy that same connection to "the real world" as the person who has the company of other people from Earth with him or her.

It's as different as an individual sport (like golf and tennis) is from a team sport (like hockey and football). The context is completely different. The narrative will hence have a completely different feel.


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who gets sucked in a magical world in animes? Fuushi Yuugi, Inuyasha, Tsubasa Chronicles (although it's not completely entirely out of nowhere), Dog Days, Rayearth, sengoku otome and i could go on >_>
A few points:

1) InuYasha and Sengoku Otome is, in actuality, rooted in time travel.

2) Tsubasa Chronicles doesn't have just one magical world. It's much more like the TV show Sliders.

3) Rayearth involves three girls who support each other through every step of the way.

4) Fuushi Yuugi involves two girls (and that fact is very important to the show, in multiple ways).


So that leaves us with Dog Days, which is about a boy instead of a girl, but I'll concede that the gender difference isn't necessarily significant.

So, the premise behind Spirited Away is not at all a tired one. In actual fact, it's one of the rarer premises around.


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It's true that it has been less common these days, but that does not mean it's not overused in animes.
So you think that the premise behind Spirited Away is overused in anime?

So how many times does a premise have to be used before you think it's overused?


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Originally Posted by Dawnstorm View Post
Well, there's something that balances out scope, and that's "attention to detail". Given the same amount of resources, a broader scope story will get a shallower treatment. (And the human attention span is limited.)
Well, you don't always have the same amount of resources.

Do you know why some of us wish that KyoAni took on more ambitious or "bigger scope" projects than what they've tended to do since Disappearance? It's because KyoAni's inherent attention to detail means that you could get the best of both worlds with them - The attention to detail that you mention combined with a big scope. And that sort of combination is often where your all-time masterpieces arises from.

Star Wars, for example, was unquestionably helped by special effects technology making it look bolder, cooler, and more exciting than most other movie of the time. When a great concept meets great attention to detail you often get a great final product.


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Also, we're moving up and down the abstraction ladder with little discipline, and as a result, I have no idea what we're really talking about. Your clarification attempt a couple of pages ago didn't help, either.
Why didn't it help? I thought my points were reasonably clear.


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For example: "a little girl (just one little girl, nobody else) getting sucked into a magical world" is a specification of a more general formula.
Specifications themselves are part of the narrative concept insofar as those specifications are important.

Look, here's what I think most of us mean by "narrative idea" or "concept":

If a friend asked you "What is anime XYZ about?", and you had to answer that in two sentences or less, your answer (as long as it's a decently accurate one), would sum up the concept behind the show.

I'm not sure how I can make it any simpler or clearer than that.


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(And if you're going to argue success [as with Star Trek], I'd say that soap operas have beat them all. Especially daily soaps. )
Daily soaps actually combine a lot of strictures themselves.

Drama, Romance, and Mystery are all core parts of daily soaps. Sometimes, you'll even get a little bit of Action or Comedy. And from an anime perspective, you could even find a touch of "Slice of Life" in daily soaps.
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