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Old 2012-10-21, 14:54   Link #30961
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Virgilia can't make a red about Lambda's game. She knows nothing about it. That red only applies to Beatrice's games.
She could say in red that Natsuhi wasn't the culprit, couldn't she?
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Old 2012-10-21, 15:09   Link #30962
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Yes, she could. So Drifloon is wrong, here.
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Old 2012-10-22, 01:54   Link #30963
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Hm, I forgot about that. That is weird, though; how on earth did she know that?
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Old 2012-10-22, 03:16   Link #30964
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She's an imaginary/supernatural being. She doesn't need a source for her information. She is, quite literally and in-universe, the embodiment of a plot device.
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Old 2012-10-22, 05:24   Link #30965
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Quote:
Yes, she could. So Drifloon is wrong, here.
But the red did not work, Dlanor asked for proof right?
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Old 2012-10-22, 06:41   Link #30966
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Hm, I forgot about that. That is weird, though; how on earth did she know that?
Presumably, Lambdadelta's solution must have had something to do with the answer to Beato's games, she couldn't have pulled anything out of her ass just like that, even if Yasu isn't the culprit.

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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
But the red did not work, Dlanor asked for proof right?
The only reason she asked for further proof was because Battler was a human, therefore not qualified to use the red at snap just like that without any conclusive evidence to base it upon.
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:23   Link #30967
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Umineko doesn't give any explanation so we can make dozens of assumptions that ranges from dumb policemen to goverment order to drop investigations so it won't come up that they left Kinzo with that huge amount of explosive but we can't prove none so which would be the point?
You say "dozens" of ways, but I'm not seeing anything beyond dumb policemen. The latter example makes no sense, because if that were the case the message bottle would most certainly not be allowed to the public.

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Then I can only assume you don't know well the history of that time.
Well, I know more than the average idiot.

The thing is, we don't know when the submarine left. It makes sense to me that they may have left shortly before Germany seized everything in September, 1943 (IIRC), likely precisely because they wanted to keep Germany from seizing the gold. Meanwhile, Kinzo's story occurs at some undisclosed time in 1944. I'm not sure exactly how long the voyage would take, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could longer than 4 months.

Or they may have originally set to sea earlier with a completely different mission, but then somehow became unable to return to Italy later in the war. And in fact that kind of thing happened on a regular basis throughout the war. Hiding the gold may have been a contingency mission that was taken on well after they were already far from home.

In any case, it's clear that landing on Rokkenjima was something they only did out of desperation after hitting a mine; they did not want the gold to fall into the hands of the Japanese either.

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
And apparently nobody ever investigated on this. They all conveniently forgot and Kinzo even managed to buy a island with a military base still completely equipped with explosive and even to keep it working. He even installed a self destruction button on it connected with a clock.
I think you are overestimating the capabilities and integrity of the Japanese bureaucracy at the end of WWII and during the subsequent occupation. Honestly, the part about this that makes the least sense to me is how the little base ended up with that much munition in the first place.

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In short all that followed 'they weren't written by Eva or Maria' ended up in a catbox for us. The odd thing is that neither the witch hunter or Ange tried to open it.
I don't think you're exactly following my point. We have every reason to assume they did check the others' handwriting. Ange only mentioned in passing that Eva didn't write them, like it was a given that hers was checked.

And besides, the alternative is absurd. How incompetent would the police have to be?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
What about going back to the old theory of Shannon marely organizing a game and then wanting to stageplay it?

She wrotes several version then tossed them away, however the one she kept end up being taken over/end up badly or whatever so that her tale became true.
"Tossed them away"? You make it sound like putting the stories to sea in bottles la And then their were none takes an equivalent state of mind to that of throwing them in the trash.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Her EP6 TIP. I'd say it's supported by the chapter about her boyfriend and all those passing "even before you were Bern's piece," lines. She's also thoroughly supported by the goats of the future, so it's hard to think they made her up entirely.

You might say she's in a very unique position in relation to the catbox, since her body was never found, and her Prime personality suited the Detective role. It's like the box was set down on top of her, and she's kinda stuck, half inside, a crack in the bottom of it.
Hm. I guess it's reasonably likely a really person with that name existed. Although I wouldn't assume anything about her Prime personality, so I can't imagine the up-to-eleven Erika we know to have been anything like the real Erika was actually like. More like, becoming Bern's piece gave her a complete makeover.
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:47   Link #30968
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Quote:
The only reason she asked for further proof was because Battler was a human, therefore not qualified to use the red at snap just like that without any conclusive evidence to base it upon.
I know that, It's the explenation on why that red DID NOT work but what if there was anathor reason?
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Old 2012-10-22, 08:59   Link #30969
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Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
I know that, It's the explenation on why that red DID NOT work but what if there was anathor reason?
And it was the reason Battler wasn't allowed to base any theories off of reds, which lead him to have to use gold truth.
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Old 2012-10-22, 10:26   Link #30970
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I choose to interpret it (and I think it's rather intuitive) that the Court of Illusions scene is just an allegory for what was actually occurring on the game board at the time of suspension:

1.) Battler is trying to defend Natsuhi.
2.) Beatrice is the "Illusion of the Witch", or rather "the possibility that a witch did it", not necessarily Yasu.
3.) The Siestas are the rifles, or some force in the parlor.
4.) Dlanor is a set of rules (the Knox Decalogue) that Erika is enforcing because she can do whatever the hell she wants to because she's the detective.

So: Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't the culprit (because she knows who the culprit is), but in terms of reasoning, this means nothing without a basis. Battler just can't "speak the truth" without any justification because Eva, Erika etc. won't buy it and it he can't show it's verifiable. It's sort of like saying Natsuhi didn't do it because Natsuhi didn't do it.

This is how I would explain Virgilia's red truth and why it can't be used in the Court scene.

EDIT: Unrelated, but I still like the theory that Eva = Erika Even though EP8 sort of disproves this.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:06   Link #30971
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
And it was the reason Battler wasn't allowed to base any theories off of reds, which lead him to have to use gold truth.
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
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Old 2012-10-22, 13:33   Link #30972
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
Well, and also to give confirmation to the reader that Natsuhi is in fact innocent (which makes the following scenes with Natsuhi + Kinzo even more emotional).

And following my post above (which may not be true), the fact the Virgilia is able to speak that red truth is informative:

How come Virgilia (Kumasawa) knows that piece of truth?
Only an accomplice would know that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders (given the current layout of the game board).
Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders.
Therefore, Kumasawa is an accomplice.


Maybe I'm just looking to deeply into this. But I do agree with what you are saying: the primary significance of that red is to heighten the tension for the big gold truth reveal.

Edit: This doesn't explain why Kumasawa is in any position to be able to use the red based on something she knows and Battler can't say that Kinzo's dead, though... yeah plot device.

Last edited by DaBackpack; 2012-10-22 at 13:43.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:19   Link #30973
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Hm. I guess it's reasonably likely a really person with that name existed. Although I wouldn't assume anything about her Prime personality, so I can't imagine the up-to-eleven Erika we know to have been anything like the real Erika was actually like. More like, becoming Bern's piece gave her a complete makeover.
I feel pretty sure she existed. I generally agree about her Prime personality - I think at best, she was very intelligent, possibly into mysteries, and like I said, was a snoop ... since she apparently "investigated" her boyfriend like a hound and presented all her findings to him demanding an explanation ("The mud on your shoes PROVES you were actually out on that Sunday it rained! It matches the mark on your calendar!")

On the gameboards, maybe "up to eleven" isn't very accurate ... more like, ramped up to eleventy-hundred. That Ryukishi never bothers expanding on her Prime existence, to me, falls under the same sort of Prime details he chooses aren't important enough, like the fact that Jessica and Battler had a crap ton of friends, or that Natsuhi and Godha probably have surviving relatives that are all WTF about the forgeries, or ANYTHING about Kinzo's wife. Hell, I've always found it odd that there are no Ushiromiya's outside of Kinzo's clan, since there were apparently enough elders around to bully him in the 40's, and it certainly sounds like he was one of several options for them.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:29   Link #30974
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Ha, that last one is a good catch. I never even wondered about other Ushiromiyas before.
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Old 2012-10-22, 14:44   Link #30975
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBackpack View Post
How come Virgilia (Kumasawa) knows that piece of truth?
Only an accomplice would know that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders (given the current layout of the game board).
Kumasawa knows that Natsuhi isn't behind the murders.
Therefore, Kumasawa is an accomplice.
Virgilia knows that Natsuhi is innocent because the stakes were watching over her all night.
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Old 2012-10-22, 15:52   Link #30976
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
You say "dozens" of ways, but I'm not seeing anything beyond dumb policemen. The latter example makes no sense, because if that were the case the message bottle would most certainly not be allowed to the public.
Of course I didn't list them all since

Quote:
we can't prove none so which would be the point?

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Well, I know more than the average idiot.
Actually I have no idea what one in your country is supposed to know about WW2 in Italy so it wasn't meant to be an offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
The thing is, we don't know when the submarine left. It makes sense to me that they may have left shortly before Germany seized everything in September, 1943 (IIRC), likely precisely because they wanted to keep Germany from seizing the gold. Meanwhile, Kinzo's story occurs at some undisclosed time in 1944. I'm not sure exactly how long the voyage would take, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that it could longer than 4 months.
Italy surrendered in 8 September. Italian discovered from the radio that they 'asked for an armistice' which was quite different from the truth but let's skip over it. Let's skip over the fact Badoglio had promised, when he had replaced Mussolini in 25 July that war would be continued and many of them were so dumb/naive/honest/whatever to believe him.

Well, the 'armistice' came as a surprise for the admiral Ajmone di Savoia Aosta, who was also a relative of the king and responsible for the submarines of the Italian Royal Navy. He wasn't the only one. Generals arrested soldiers talking about the armistice because it surely hadn't happened.

Badoglio and the king in fact became famous for escaping from Rome without warning everyone of their bright plan of surrendering and without giving orders about what to do.

The 9 September the German forces sunk the Roma, an Italian battlership, that was traveling toward a destination they didn't like (it was supposed to be handed to the allied by the agreements taken in the 'armistice').

The 12 September Max Berninghas a german official (can't find the exact rank) showed up to take the complete control of the Italian royal navy in Liguria. The same happened for the other Italian regions.

This to show you how fast the German forces were in seizing control of everything and how unprepared everyone was to the news of the 'armistice' and how hard to believe it seems that someone could prepare in advantage. Not that it mattered because Umineko makes clear that this isn't what had happened.

The RSI has birth the 18 November and was a puppet state under Germany.

Now Umineko not only mention 1944 but also the defeats at Saipan and Guam.

Saipan's defeat took place in 9 July 1944, Guan in August 10. So we're past August 10.

We know that Beato's father was a high-ranking RSI official so the submarine, to pick him and Beato up, must have left after the RSI had birth and after he had the time to be recognized as such.

Recheking Umineko Ep 7 I even found they said which way they took
They went through the Suez Canal and crossed the Indian Ocean to come all the way there, a trip that's shorter than to circumnavigate Africa but nowhere near nice as the Suez Canal was under Allies control. Anyway, in order to go through it they must have started their travel from some point in the Mediterranean that was still under control of the RSI and therefore of the German forces.

Ergo whoever planned the trip set them for a nice, long travel in allied controlled waters when again there were Spain or Switzerland nearby.

Beato also said that she didn't know well their mission but that they were escaping and that they were supposed to hide 'something' implying the mission.
And anyway... where would they have picked up the gold?

And anyway, even if they landed on Rokkenjima merely out of desperation... where they were trying to go? Around they had only countries that were on the allies side and Japan with the countries under his control.

No, the plan makes no sense at all.

Anyway, wanna find it logic?
Be my guest. For me it's one of the most senseless thing in Umineko but feel free to think differently. I'm not going to discuss it any further.

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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
I don't think you're exactly following my point. We have every reason to assume they did check the others' handwriting. Ange only mentioned in passing that Eva didn't write them, like it was a given that hers was checked.
You're probably not following my point either. What I was saying is that no info about the handwriting being recognized as the one of Shannon was given.
If the police managed to realize it, the info was kept the info absolutely secret, the journalists and the witch hunters didn't manage to have one of the policemen tattle it out.
Journalists and witch hunters didn't find it out in any other way.
However the public found out that the handwriting wasn't Eva, that it wasn't Maria, even the text of the message and Ootsuki could even see it personally and for a time long enough to allow him to recognize the writing when he saw it on Ange's diary.
All in all you can say as many times as you want that the police investigates on the messages and, if you like, even discovered who wrote them but there's no proof about this.

And if you can prove something, it remains a theory.

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"Tossed them away"? You make it sound like putting the stories to sea in bottles la And then their were none takes an equivalent state of mind to that of throwing them in the trash.
I obviously didn't meant that way as I referenced Ten Little Indians and Yasu's wish for someone to find them and solve them previously.
Please, avoid nit-picking my English. I already know it's horrible but it's not my first language and it was mostly self learnt so really, this is the best I can do with it.
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Old 2012-10-22, 20:20   Link #30977
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Actually, wasn't the rules originally that

When I (Beatrice) speak the truth, I (Beatrice) will use the red.

Battler wasn't permitted to use the red until EP4. In fact, that was the only time he was implicitly allowed to use it. After that, Battler did use it though.

Remember when Ryukishi likened the gold to a "finishing move that if anyone knows the code, they can use."

Sure, Beato allowed Battler and Ange to say things in red. They were true. But once the game was hijacked in EP5, Lambda and Bern were more strict on the rules. It's like playing a game with certain house rules, and then once you go to the official games, all of a sudden, you can't do those things any more.

Reread EP1's tea-party. Battler challeneged Beatrice game to the hundreds of years worth of mystery novels. Therefore, the detective had to gather clues, and only the clues that the detective gathered had any meaning.

Bern and Lambda weren't scribbling on their board; they were playing by the rules as they were set out back in EP1. There aren't any magical forces keeping a player from moving a rook diagonally, but it's an illegal move and will have to be taken back. That's what Virgilia's red is.
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Old 2012-10-22, 20:57   Link #30978
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Virgilia is a witch and is on Beatrice's side, though, so that move is valid by your own logic.
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Old 2012-10-22, 23:19   Link #30979
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Really, the entire reason he couldn't do it was to set up tension for the gold truth moment being pulled out of nowhere. It wasn't really well-written and Virgilia never needed to actually give him that red.
I'm pretty sure that his red was rejected because it didn't come from the Game Master. The whole point of the Umineko game is that the player solves it with information given by the Game Master. The Game Master guarantees that whatever information she gives will be enough to solve all the puzzles. In exchange, she requires that you construct an argument based solely on the evidence shown in the game.

Virgilia's red was an extra hint outside what the author shows us in the game, like an interview or one of those extra TIPs. It might be useful for giving Battler confidence, or as an idea of where to look for the real solution, but it can't be used as evidence by itself.


The only reason the trial looks unfair is because Erika keeps using cheap tricks to prevent all answers where Natsuhi is innocent. However, we know that Natsuhi is innocent. Therefore, no matter what tricks Erika uses, no matter how cheap she is, there must always be a way to demonstrate Natsuhi's innocence, using only the evidence Lambda gives us.
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Old 2012-10-22, 23:19   Link #30980
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Actually, that red is false as it is stated in EP2:

When I speak the truth, I will use the red. means that everything not in red is a lie. (contrapositive). But we have several cases where Beatrice has spoken the truth without using the red.

I think it's supposed to be When I use the red, I am speaking the truth.
The two are not interchangeable. This is a fault of Ryukishi's.
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