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Old 2012-08-27, 14:10   Link #281
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
While that may be one motive, I don't think that it's the only one. Much of Apple's philosophy is with the idea that "if you want something done right, do it yourself." To a certain degree, Windows, Android, and other operating systems that relied on someone else to produce the hardware and other bits were somewhat restricted because the visions of the people designing the operating system didn't necessarily match up with the visions of people designing the software or hardware. That's workable up to a point, but it takes a unified vision to advance further. Apple has often received praise for the good user experience that their products offer, and I suspect that it arises in part from their vertical integration. (It helps that their overall company culture is dedicated to it, as well.)
1) I'm not sure how you support the assertion that "it takes a unified vision to advance further". Monoculture or diversity?
2) I don't like grocery stores that only offer one choice, why would I want just one choice for a functionality? I'm not an outlier here, most people want some choices.

The walled garden is a well-known corporate tactic, many, many corporations attempt it to "lock in" consumer units. Most have to be brought in kicking and screaming into some sort of open market (re: Microsoft, telco-pick-any, wireless-verizon-att, manufacturers-that-void-warranties-unless-you-use-their services). In the past legally, they have been considered anti-competitive when the courts have looked at it.
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Old 2012-08-27, 16:21   Link #282
Random32
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1. I think he means something like that companies should stop thinking about products as Hardware + Software + Services, but rather Product.

I disagree with him though. Apple's our way or the highway approach serves fewer customers better. The thinking of product as it's parts method serves more customers decently. Android is more popular than iOS because there is an Android phone for everyone. iOS has higher user satisfaction though.

2. You are an outlier. Average consumers don't like choices. They are idiots that need choices made for them. Most of the time they claim to want choices, but they are lying. If presented with a ton of choices, they will be quickly overwhelmed, become unable to make a decision of which choice they should choose, and end up not choosing any, and then complain that there aren't enough choices, because they have to lie to themselves that they aren't idiots that need choices made for them.

Too many choices is probably why the iPhone is so popular. You can choose an Android phone, or get an iPhone. There are so many Android devices to choose from, consumers run to Apple to have their decision made for them.

That said, the primary purpose of a walled garden is to trap customers in them so you can milk them more.
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Old 2012-08-27, 17:06   Link #283
felix
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Quantity is not choice. Just because there are 10 products if there's nothing really different about them other then the name, there's not much choice there. Oh look 1001 linux distros, all suffering from the same shortcomings, preventing me from hopping over, clearly I am a dumb consumer for not seeing much of a choice there.

Also, everyone is quick to praise apple but just how much of their "good design" is just "patents and good lawyers"? It's really easy to look like you're the only one that "gets it" when you just cripple the competition. As I recall from a few talks and articles on in particular the iPhone (a TED one in recent memory), they didn't come up with the name, the concept, or just about anything else. They just took it, patented the shit out of every nook and cranny, and voila everyone thinks their some kind of godsent geniuses.
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Old 2012-08-27, 17:24   Link #284
Vexx
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I just keep coughing "Xerox", "PARC", or "X windows" amongst the many pieces of ideas that Apple descended from...

<shrug> we're seeing what happens when patent lawyering in a broken system trumps innovation and competition ...
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Old 2012-08-27, 19:29   Link #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
1) I'm not sure how you support the assertion that "it takes a unified vision to advance further". Monoculture or diversity?
I'm theorizing about it based on product history. The iPhone wasn't the first smartphone by any stretch (and it wasn't even the first touch-based smartphone), but why did it kick off a "smartphone revolution"? The iPad wasn't the first tablet-style computing device on the market, but why did its release create an enthusiasm for tablets?

There are many potential reasons (Apple's "star power," timing and technology maturity, and so on), but having used some of the earlier products, I see the greatest reason as being the unified vision. Microsoft and Linux are designed so that they can be used across a wide variety of devices. It's not that the software developers never speak with hardware developers from other companies, but how much feedback goes on when software and hardware are designed? In many cases it seems as if the software has good features, but the hardware doesn't implement them properly (if at all; see Windows Vista's and Windows 7's handwriting support - which was quite good - as an example of a software feature that hardware never made good use of). Alternately, some hardware is well-designed, but the software, for what ever reason, makes the user experience very poor (which was the case with some of the early Android devices).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
1. I think he means something like that companies should stop thinking about products as Hardware + Software + Services, but rather Product.
To an extent, yes. The hardware and software influence each other. Computing doesn't need to be restricted to the traditional terminal, keyboard, mouse, and monitor. Microsoft and Linux have been stuck in that paradigm for years; Apple has recently started breaking out of it.

I actually don't like this type of thinking when taken too far, though. On Apple's side, I dislike the Macbook Air and the "Retina" Macbook Pro, because there are no parts that the user can swap out. I suspect that's where computing is headed, unfortunately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Also, everyone is quick to praise apple but just how much of their "good design" is just "patents and good lawyers"? It's really easy to look like you're the only one that "gets it" when you just cripple the competition. As I recall from a few talks and articles on in particular the iPhone (a TED one in recent memory), they didn't come up with the name, the concept, or just about anything else. They just took it, patented the shit out of every nook and cranny, and voila everyone thinks their some kind of godsent geniuses.
Remember when the Motorola RAZR was released? It was quite popular. Very shortly thereafter, many phone companies had a slim phone that emulated the RAZR's design. The release of the iPhone catapulted smartphones to the front of companies' attention, and not surprisingly, many companies began to emulate the iPhone. Case in point, there were very few 100% touch-screen devices before the iPhone was released; now it's hard to find a device that still has a physical keyboard.

For Apple, it's probably a combination of both aggressive patenting (not that they're unique in this regard) and their own abilities. I still maintain that the vertical integration was a major help to them, though. By way of example, take a look at the Microsoft Surface. It looks to be a beautiful device... but Microsoft had do what Apple does, taking it upon themselves to design the hardware for their software.
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:51   Link #286
monster
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Windows 8 pre-order has arrived two weeks before General Availability.

Quote:
Starting today, you can reserve a packaged DVD of the upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for $69.99 USD ERP* (U.S.) at select retailers. In the U.S., you will find this offer at Amazon.com, Best Buy, Staples, Office Depot and the Microsoft Store and many more.

However, if you want to wait until October 26th you will be able to upgrade online via Windows.com using the Windows 8 Upgrade Assistant for just $39.99 USD ERP*. Online upgrade to Windows 8 Pro is supported for 140 countries worldwide, with 37 languages, and 23 supported currencies!

- this upgrade promotion for Windows 8 Pro both online and at retail runs only through to January 31st, 2013.

Also starting today, you will be able to pre-order new Windows 8 PCs and devices from OEM partners such as Acer, ASUS, Dell, HP, Samsung and Sony.

If you purchase (or have purchased) an eligible Windows 7 PC anytime between June 2, 2012 and January 31, 2013 you will be able to purchase an upgrade to Windows 8 Pro for only $14.99 USD ERP** (U.S.) which will be redeemable starting October 26th.

* Offers limited to five upgrade licenses per customer. To install Windows 8 Pro, customers must be running Windows XP SP3, Windows Vista, or Windows 7
Having used it for the past year, I think I'll purchase a copy of the Pro edition to install on my nearly 4-year-old HP laptop. The only choice left to make is whether it'll be the online upgrade, the retail upgrade, or the system builder copy.

Either way, I'll wait until after General Availability (maybe November) to decide.
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Old 2012-10-12, 19:31   Link #287
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any word on the pricing for the surface?
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Old 2012-10-12, 19:43   Link #288
Random32
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Nothing official.

If MS has half a brain, SurfaceRT won't be cheaper than $500, else their partners would be even more pissed a them.
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Old 2012-10-12, 20:01   Link #289
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
Nothing official.

If MS has half a brain, SurfaceRT won't be cheaper than $500, else their partners would be even more pissed a them.
Would that matter?

their "partners" are already making Android devices. It is not like if MS is especially nice to them they would stop.
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Old 2012-10-15, 08:57   Link #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Having used it for the past year, I think I'll purchase a copy of the Pro edition to install on my nearly 4-year-old HP laptop. The only choice left to make is whether it'll be the online upgrade, the retail upgrade, or the system builder copy.

Either way, I'll wait until after General Availability (maybe November) to decide.
If the processor requirements are the same as they are for the release preview, then it's likely that the windows 8 installer will tell you to take a hike when you try it on that 4 year old laptop.

I was going to pre-order a windows 8 pro upgrade for my 2 year old laptop, but since the processor doesn't have NX processor bit I've now scrapped that since I now know that I can't install windows 8 on either the laptop or my desktop system (and even if it could, I'd have to add another hard drive since I'd be getting a OEM version for that in case there's something that windows 8 can't run).
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Old 2012-10-15, 11:58   Link #291
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonix View Post
If the processor requirements are the same as they are for the release preview, then it's likely that the windows 8 installer will tell you to take a hike when you try it on that 4 year old laptop.

I was going to pre-order a windows 8 pro upgrade for my 2 year old laptop, but since the processor doesn't have NX processor bit I've now scrapped that since I now know that I can't install windows 8 on either the laptop or my desktop system (and even if it could, I'd have to add another hard drive since I'd be getting a OEM version for that in case there's something that windows 8 can't run).
Um, that's funny, since I've installed and used the Developer Preview, the Consumer Preview, the Release Preview, and now I'm running Windows 8 Enterprise RTM on this same HP Pavilion I bought in January 2009. Interestingly enough, I bought this laptop specifically to run the Windows 7 Beta that was just released around that same time.

I don't know; it seems to work fine on my CPU, a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo P8600.
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Old 2012-10-16, 07:36   Link #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Um, that's funny, since I've installed and used the Developer Preview, the Consumer Preview, the Release Preview, and now I'm running Windows 8 Enterprise RTM on this same HP Pavilion I bought in January 2009. Interestingly enough, I bought this laptop specifically to run the Windows 7 Beta that was just released around that same time.

I don't know; it seems to work fine on my CPU, a 2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo P8600.
I thought that NX was a more recent addition to processors and not something that's been included in processors since the pentium 4 processor (MS made NX and it's AMD equivalent a requirement before installation around when the release preview came out).

I wasn't aware that the processors in both my laptop and desktop do support NX (known as enhanced virus protection on AMD processors), and I'll at least be doing an upgrade on the laptop (I'm getting an OEM version for the desktop since I'll be keeping it's original OS just in case there's something windows 8 can't handle).
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Old 2012-10-16, 08:58   Link #293
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
any word on the pricing for the surface?
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/16/m...starts-at-499/
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Old 2012-10-16, 10:23   Link #294
Random32
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btw, they pulled it. Also, wasn't the touch cover supposed to come included with the base model?

Anyways, $100 for a cover that probably costed less than $10 to make is ridiculous.
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Old 2012-10-16, 10:49   Link #295
monster
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Anyways, $100 for a cover that probably costed less than $10 to make is ridiculous.
It's a cover + keyboard + touchpad. Are you sure it costs less than $10 to make?
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Old 2012-10-16, 11:10   Link #296
Random32
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Maybe exaggerating a bit, but there is no way that thing costs anywhere near $100 to make.
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Old 2012-10-16, 11:23   Link #297
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i was hoping for 399

PS. any idea on the memory and processing power of the RT?
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Old 2012-10-16, 13:13   Link #298
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i was hoping for 399

PS. any idea on the memory and processing power of the RT?
it have 2GB memory and Tegra 3 Processor
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Old 2012-10-24, 02:38   Link #299
Simonsy
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So what's everyone doing operating system wise come the 26th for PC destop users who have a mouse and keyboard, no touch.

Are you guys going to get windows 8 or ignore it?

It seems like a system built around touch, so not sure how well it will be received by typical desktop users.
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Old 2012-10-24, 03:00   Link #300
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No need for win8. No significant changes to OS = no installation on my PC.

And metro style is a big cons for me(on desktop systems).
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