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Old 2012-10-24, 22:02   Link #801
Solace
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However you look at it, Kyubey's assessment of Madoka's wish was wrong. I had to dig a bit, but I found my speculah from the episode 10 thread. I still think it's fairly accurate. Here's why.

1. Madoka's brother can not only remember her, but he can visualize her. Not supposed to be possible.

2. Madoka's mother is nostalgic over the name Madoka, picks up on the ribbons.

3. The Incubators can't explain how the gems vanish, meaning that they still intended the system to turn girls into Witches, but can't make it work due to Madoka's interference. So until they can figure it out, they're on plan b, which they consider to be inefficient. Kyubey is still Kyubey, in the end, and Homura's explanation could be the key to unlocking their mad science in this universe too.

4. Madoka cannot interact on the physical plane except to collect Gems before they break. She shouldn't be able to talk to Homura, but she did.

So my speculation is basically this:

Madoka's wish solved the immediate problems of the system, but it did not solve the problem of the system itself. Outside of the threat of Walpurgis and the girls turning into Witches being removed, everything else is essentially the same. The girls still despair and die, Witches are replaced with Demons, Kyubey is still exploiting young girls to power the universe, and Sayaka is still a fool.

So yay, bittersweet victory, at a high price - Madoka ceases to exist as a human. But Madoka can see all now, and she promises a miracle.

Out on a limb speculation incoming: the end credits of the movie shows an outline of a possible Godoka with a fetal "person" near her stomach, implying pregnancy. I haven't seen the image (if someone is able to find and post it, please do so under tags), but I think if we're dealing with Buddhist themes, perhaps it's not pregnancy, but reincarnation. As in, the "rebirth" of Madoka into the mortal world.

Consider that if Kyubey circumvents her wish, that basically nullifies it. She no longer is bound by the wish. This is essentially what happened to Homura's wish: Madoka isn't technically dead, and she can't die or turn into a Witch, so there's no need for Homura to protect her anymore. Wish granted, except it's more like it was nulled because it was cancelled out by Madoka's wish. In turn Kyubey (or some other force) brings back Witches in another form not covered by Madoka's wish, so there's no reason for Madoka to remain as she is. Her old wish was granted, those Witches are now gone and replaced with a new type of Witch.

This also changes the parameter of her Wish. This isn't the universe she wished for - one free of all Witches. So a new universe has overridden hers, one where they exist again. This introduces all sorts of possibilities, like Sayaka living again.

Remember that for all of the magic, at its heart the mechanics of the story are still based heavily on science fiction. So in a way, we're right back to the initial problem which couldn't be solved by merely wishing it away or taking the burden entirely onto oneself: the system itself.

I hope this jumbled mess of thoughts makes some sense to others.
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Old 2012-10-24, 22:16   Link #802
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3. The Incubators can't explain how the gems vanish, meaning that they still intended the system to turn girls into Witches, but can't make it work due to Madoka's interference. So until they can figure it out, they're on plan b, which they consider to be inefficient. Kyubey is still Kyubey, in the end, and Homura's explanation could be the key to unlocking their mad science in this universe too.
The issue I have to take with this is that Kyubey responds to Homura's witch concept as if it's entirely unknown to him. They probably observed the existence of demons, created a system to reap grief from them, and may have just intended Soul Gems to stay 'full' until they can be cleansed, or something. We don't really know. But Kyubey has no conception of Witches until Homura described it; the Incubators all have one consciousness, so they clearly didn't think of it in this universe.

Quote:
Out on a limb speculation incoming: the end credits of the movie shows an outline of a possible Godoka with a fetal "person" near her stomach, implying pregnancy. I haven't seen the image (if someone is able to find and post it, please do so under tags), but I think if we're dealing with Buddhist themes, perhaps it's not pregnancy, but reincarnation. As in, the "rebirth" of Madoka into the mortal world.
From what I recall, the light in her stomach is never described as person-shaped. I interpreted it to represent a miracle that Madoka plans to give birth to, rather than the (re)birth of a person.

Your idea is very fun though, and aside from the thing with the Incubators, I have no real issues with it aside from the previous concern about negating the merits of the original series.
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Old 2012-10-24, 22:56   Link #803
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Let me rephrase that a bit then. It's not that they planned on creating Witches, but that what they were essentially after was the Gem becoming filled with energy and bursting open. It's implied they tried to do this and cannot, so they use a slower (to them) method of collecting energy using the cubes.

Was it a light in that scene? It's hard to know what all of the descriptions floating about. The ones I read mentioned silhouette of a person. Ah well, I'm still keen to the idea. Then again, we debated a lot about the ED of the anime too, and like the OP it didn't turn out to mean much really.
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Old 2012-10-24, 23:11   Link #804
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Well, personally, I defiantly don't want Madoka to reincarnate. That would really ruin the story for me. Her story story arc is done. She did what she needed and wanted to do. Now is time for the others, and specially Homura, to step up to the plate.

That said, I don't even think it's possible for Madoka to reincarnate. Homura's wish was nullified by a wish from a magical girl with more power than her (Madoka). To nullify Madoka's wish they would need even more power, and neither the Incubators, nor any potential magical girl should have that kinda power. Kyubey told Madoka multiple times that he had never seen a potential magical girl with so much power... and let's face it, the events that led to her having that power were pretty unique.
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Old 2012-10-24, 23:35   Link #805
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I don't agree that her arc is done. You could just as easily argue Homura's is done too, or any of the other characters. Although I'm not trying to be too literal with the word reincarnation. I'm just going with all the rumors and tossing out fun (hopefully?) speculation. Really there's no way to discuss anything concrete until we get non-teaser material, so we may as well get it out of our system now.

Besides, it'll be fun to look back and see how close we got. Maybe one of us ends up being right after all?
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Old 2012-10-24, 23:47   Link #806
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I have to agree that Madoka really shouldn't come back in some capacity like that. If she does, she'll be having her cake and eating it too in a universe that really discourages those sorts of deals, and if she comes back at the price of undoing her wish?

...Well, fuck literally everything about that. That's just bullshit retcon revisionism that undermines the entire anime.
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Old 2012-10-25, 00:34   Link #807
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
I don't agree that her arc is done. You could just as easily argue Homura's is done too, or any of the other characters.
In the tv series Madoka found out what she need/wanted to do and resolved both the series' conflict and her own internal conflict. Homura on the other hand didn't achieve anything. Her efforts weren't pointless, since she made it possible for Madoka to achieve her goals. But that means Homura was just a plot devices to Madoka's journey. As a character of her own, she truly didn't achieve anything at all...

The movie is the prefect opportunity to close her story. She already has a stated goal: to protect Madoka's world. The movie can cover that without retconing anything, but to bring Madoka back into the game they would need to undone what the story already covered.

Unlike Madoka's story, Homura's is still open.
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Old 2012-10-25, 01:27   Link #808
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Gotta ditto everything Kazu-kun just said. Homura still has growth to undergo, Madoka doesn't.
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Old 2012-10-25, 01:40   Link #809
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
In the tv series Madoka found out what she need/wanted to do and resolved both the series' conflict and her own internal conflict. Homura on the other hand didn't achieve anything. Her efforts weren't pointless, since she made it possible for Madoka to achieve her goals. But that means Homura was just a plot devices to Madoka's journey. As a character of her own, she truly didn't achieve anything at all...

The movie is the prefect opportunity to close her story. She already has a stated goal: to protect Madoka's world. The movie can cover that without retconing anything, but to bring Madoka back into the game they would need to undone what the story already covered.

Unlike Madoka's story, Homura's is still open.
Homura's story is closed. She is acting out her goal right now by defeating Demons. To paraphrase her: "She's gone, but she left this world, and I'll protect this world while I still can because that's what she would have done". The anime ends on a very closed note. Madoka is Godoka, Sayaka is dead, Homura, Mami, and Kyouko are fighting the good fight until they go too.

The movie says "wait wait, that's not really the ending" and adds stuff to the story to keep it going. What happens in the movie, right now, is completely up in the air. It could just as easily be about Sayaka being a foolish Zombie Witch who has returned from the dead by mad scientist Incubator experiments. We don't know.

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Gotta ditto everything Kazu-kun just said. Homura still has growth to undergo, Madoka doesn't.
What growth could she have left that Madoka doesn't? I'm really not sure why you two are so firm on this.
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Old 2012-10-25, 02:00   Link #810
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Homura's still ALIVE, for starters. Madoka is an omniscient being that has escaped causality and the universe. Homura still has beliefs that can be challenged, hopes to achieve, fears to overcome, a life to live, and lessons to learn. And like Kazu said pretty succintly, Homura still hasn't achieved anything under her own merits.
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Old 2012-10-25, 02:27   Link #811
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Homura's still ALIVE, for starters. Madoka is an omniscient being that has escaped causality and the universe. Homura still has beliefs that can be challenged, hopes to achieve, fears to overcome, a life to live, and lessons to learn. And like Kazu said pretty succintly, Homura still hasn't achieved anything under her own merits.
Right, gotcha. Madoka is an emotionless being dutifully carrying out the terms of her wish. She has no beliefs to be challenged, no hopes to achieve, no fears, no life, and no lessons. She's just a static thing in the shape of a girl.

I must have watched a different ending. The Madoka I saw was full of life.

Why are you arguing like it's either or? Is it not possible to have a story where all characters can grow? I get the feeling that the reason you don't want Madoka in the story is more about your desire to have Homura be the main character than any speculation on what the story could be about.

Achieved under her own merits? I wouldn't call the resolution satisfactory for either of them, but Homura did achieve part of her goal - Madoka is protected. The time she spent watching her friends die over and over was what allowed Madoka to break fate. If it wasn't for Homura, everyone would be dead, permanently.
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Old 2012-10-25, 03:02   Link #812
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Why are you arguing like it's either or? Is it not possible to have a story where all characters can grow? I get the feeling that the reason you don't want Madoka in the story is more about your desire to have Homura be the main character than any speculation on what the story could be about.
Well, Urubuchi said Homura's going to be the main the character of the third movie. He may be trolling but for now that's pretty much all we have to speculate on.

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Achieved under her own merits? I wouldn't call the resolution satisfactory for either of them, but Homura did achieve part of her goal - Madoka is protected. The time she spent watching her friends die over and over was what allowed Madoka to break fate. If it wasn't for Homura, everyone would be dead, permanently.
Like I said, Homura's efforts weren't pointless. As a side effect of what she tried to do, she made it possible for Madoka to achieve her goals. But Homura herself couldn't achieve her own goals. She never wanted Madoka to end up like she did. She wanted Madoka to live, as a human, but she couldn't achieve that.

She couldn't save the girl, not in the way she want it to, and that's why she decided to protect her world instead. That's good enough premise to explore in the movie, and they don't need to mess with what the series already covered to do so.
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Old 2012-10-25, 03:27   Link #813
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Right, gotcha. Madoka is an emotionless being dutifully carrying out the terms of her wish. She has no beliefs to be challenged, no hopes to achieve, no fears, no life, and no lessons. She's just a static thing in the shape of a girl.

I must have watched a different ending. The Madoka I saw was full of life.
The quality of life is different. She's a cosmic, universal entity. She doesn't have challenges the same way we do, and her perspective is literally infinite, so there's nothing left for her to learn. She's basically won the game, or atleast stopped playing.

Quote:

Why are you arguing like it's either or? Is it not possible to have a story where all characters can grow? I get the feeling that the reason you don't want Madoka in the story is more about your desire to have Homura be the main character than any speculation on what the story could be about.
HOLY ASSUMPTIONS, BATMAN!

No, you're completely wrong. I don't really care who plays protagonist other than the fact that Madoka really shouldn't because she's no longer in a frame of reference we can relate to. Humans can't empathize with whatever business real gods are up to. She has more in common with Cthulhu now than she does with us, despite her benevolence and human empathy.

Quote:
Achieved under her own merits? I wouldn't call the resolution satisfactory for either of them, but Homura did achieve part of her goal - Madoka is protected. The time she spent watching her friends die over and over was what allowed Madoka to break fate. If it wasn't for Homura, everyone would be dead, permanently.
Madoka will never be part of this world again, and she'll never, in the way Homura desired, be with her family and loved ones. The smiling, radiant soul of Madoka Kaname is forever gone from this world and no one will ever truly remember her as they once did.

Homura was not okay with that. She's coping with it, but it's not what her goal was, and it's very easy to conclude that she still feels she's compensating for having technically failed. It's just that she understands and respects Madoka's choices enough, and tries to have faith in her like she asked.

And it's not like it's really because of Homura herself that any of this all came about. It was a side-effect of her actions in a way she could've never fathomed. Her involvement in Madoka's ascension is much too passive to be a proper resolution. There's no narrative triumph in having the protagonist succeed by bumbling about and finding the Win Button on accident.

and Madoka's wish was a Win Button. Madoka's pressing it was intentional, but her having the Win Button to press was a random fuckup on Homura's part.

The fact of the matter is that Homura is not self-actualized, like Madoka is. Even Sayaka can be argued to have self-actualized in her afterlife scene with Madoka and Kyousuke, but Homura is basically settling.
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Old 2012-10-25, 05:21   Link #814
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Well, Urubuchi said Homura's going to be the main the character of the third movie. He may be trolling but for now that's pretty much all we have to speculate on.
Gen always trolls. Madoka was the title character, but the focus of the story was not really on her, so much as it was about her, until the end. Otherwise it was the other girls who drove the narrative. Homura for all of it, Mami for part, Kyouko for a bit and especially Sayaka for a good number of episodes. I do expect Homura to play the major role this time, as the driving element will likely be as you say below.

Quote:
Like I said, Homura's efforts weren't pointless. As a side effect of what she tried to do, she made it possible for Madoka to achieve her goals. But Homura herself couldn't achieve her own goals. She never wanted Madoka to end up like she did. She wanted Madoka to live, as a human, but she couldn't achieve that.

She couldn't save the girl, not in the way she want it to, and that's why she decided to protect her world instead.
I don't disagree with this assessment.

Quote:
That's good enough premise to explore in the movie, and they don't need to mess with what the series already covered to do so.
It is a good premise to explore in the movie, as a thematic element about her character. However I do not expect the story to have that as the only element, and that is why I brought my speculation up. I do not consider my speculation as anything but, and I even said that some of it was out on a limb. I do believe, however, that Madoka will return to play an important role based on her wish and her words, and that mixed in with the theme/plot of the movie will be the nature of the MG system itself, and its broken nature.

Until the system is dealt with properly, there is no real miracle, no happy ending. All Madoka's wish really did was buy time.

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The quality of life is different. She's a cosmic, universal entity. She doesn't have challenges the same way we do, and her perspective is literally infinite, so there's nothing left for her to learn. She's basically won the game, or atleast stopped playing.
You're assuming. We have no real clue how she is now.

Quote:
HOLY ASSUMPTIONS, BATMAN!

No, you're completely wrong. I don't really care who plays protagonist other than the fact that Madoka really shouldn't because she's no longer in a frame of reference we can relate to. Humans can't empathize with whatever business real gods are up to. She has more in common with Cthulhu now than she does with us, despite her benevolence and human empathy.
Again, you're assuming. We have no real clue how she is now.


Quote:
Madoka will never be part of this world again, and she'll never, in the way Homura desired, be with her family and loved ones. The smiling, radiant soul of Madoka Kaname is forever gone from this world and no one will ever truly remember her as they once did.
One more time, this is not certain. You are making it definite, but the story did not.

Quote:
Homura was not okay with that. She's coping with it, but it's not what her goal was, and it's very easy to conclude that she still feels she's compensating for having technically failed. It's just that she understands and respects Madoka's choices enough, and tries to have faith in her like she asked.

And it's not like it's really because of Homura herself that any of this all came about. It was a side-effect of her actions in a way she could've never fathomed. Her involvement in Madoka's ascension is much too passive to be a proper resolution.
As with what Kazu said, I'm not really disagreeing here.

Quote:
There's no narrative triumph in having the protagonist succeed by bumbling about and finding the Win Button on accident.

and Madoka's wish was a Win Button. Madoka's pressing it was intentional, but her having the Win Button to press was a random fuckup on Homura's part.
Madoka didn't find the Win Button, she found the Pause Button.

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The fact of the matter is that Homura is not self-actualized, like Madoka is. Even Sayaka can be argued to have self-actualized in her afterlife scene with Madoka and Kyousuke, but Homura is basically settling.
Not disagreeing here either.

Regardless, all I was doing was pondering the ending of the anime, and noting the inconsistencies between Kyubey's analysis of Madoka's wish and what really happened, my own analysis from episode 10 and how it might tie into the return of Witches despite her wish, and finally extrapolating an admittedly out there scenario in which Madoka can return to Homura as a mortal being instead of being stuck on some other plane of existence.

I'm not really sure where you guys got the idea that I was playing down Homura's role, or playing up Madoka's, or anything like that. As I said before, until we get more information, everything is pretty much up in the air, anything and everything could happen. Heck, I'm sure people are arguing in circles about Sayaka being back from the dead or not, somewhere on the internet.
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Old 2012-10-25, 13:02   Link #815
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Madoka Magica Films Had Weekend's 2nd Best Screen Average in U.S.

Double feature in 5 U.S. cities earns US$62,340 during October 19-21 weekend

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The U.S screening of the first two Puella Magi Madoka Magica anime films earned US$62,340 on five screens during the weekend of October 19-21, giving the films a per-screen average of US$12,468. During that weekend, the films ranked second on Box Office Mojo's chart for per-screen average, ranking only below The Sessions, which had a per-screen average of US$28,367. The films ranked at #41 overall during the weekend.

Aniplex of America partnered with Eleven Arts for the screenings last weekend in five cities: Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, Houston, and San Francisco. The two companies also added additional showings in some cities.

The staff of the two films announced last month that the films will open in 18 cities in eight countries and territories between October and December. Other countries and territories that will screen the film include France, Italy, San Marino, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

Producer Atsuhiro Iwakami had revealed last November that the film trilogy will begin with a two-part compilation of the original television series, followed by an all-new film. Puella Magi Madoka Magica the Movie Part 1: Beginnings opened on October 6 in Japan, and Puella Magi Madoka Magica the Movie Part 2: Eternal followed on October 13. The first film had earned about US$1.7 million in its opening weekend in Japan, and the second film earned about US$2.18 million in its opening weekend.

Source: Box Office Mojo via animeanime.jp
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Old 2012-10-25, 13:08   Link #816
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ANN review here:
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Old 2012-10-25, 14:40   Link #817
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You're assuming. We have no real clue how she is now.
We have a fairly good basis for speculation. We saw quite a lot and context clues provide even more information.

It's not really a grown-up thing to do to just write off someone's interpretation as baseless just because you disagree with it. I've provided multiple pieces of evidence that make my line of reasoning at least followable and valid.

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One more time, this is not certain. You are making it definite, but the story did not.
Alright, this one is my flub. That sentence is made from Homura's point of view on the situation, but I didn't make that clear enough.

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Madoka didn't find the Win Button, she found the Pause Button.
Pause Buttons don't cause real and definite changes. They're moments of statis. Madoka Won. She didn't aspire for her ultimate desire, but she got exactly what she wished for, and she made things undeniably better, even if not infinitely so. Her universe is a remarkable improvement on the one that came before, and she is satisfied with that until the next miracle. She got to help countless people just like she wanted to the whole series, and overcame the main conflict and obstacle of the anime. She won.
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Old 2012-10-25, 15:09   Link #818
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this probably most frequently asked question but..

when is the blu-ray ver come out?
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Old 2012-10-25, 15:28   Link #819
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Still nto announced, I care more for the third movie's bluray release as we risk having the next season released before we get a chance to watch the third movie.
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Old 2012-10-25, 16:50   Link #820
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We have a fairly good basis for speculation. We saw quite a lot and context clues provide even more information.

It's not really a grown-up thing to do to just write off someone's interpretation as baseless just because you disagree with it. I've provided multiple pieces of evidence that make my line of reasoning at least followable and valid.
I never said it was baseless, I said it was assumption. The show ends Madoka leaving to do her new duty and Homura mucking about without her. You can interpret it how you please, but your interpretation is just assumption and opinion based on breadcrumbs and extrapolation. It's not any different than mine.

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Alright, this one is my flub. That sentence is made from Homura's point of view on the situation, but I didn't make that clear enough.
Fair enough. It makes more sense that way, but I still think you're projecting a bit. I'm not convinced that Homura feels that way, or to put it another way, I don't think she has ultimately resigned or settled (I know I agreed a bit earlier, and I still do, but....) to her fate. There's just nothing she can do in the immediate future except do her duty as a Magical Girl.

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Pause Buttons don't cause real and definite changes. They're moments of statis. Madoka Won. She didn't aspire for her ultimate desire, but she got exactly what she wished for, and she made things undeniably better, even if not infinitely so. Her universe is a remarkable improvement on the one that came before, and she is satisfied with that until the next miracle. She got to help countless people just like she wanted to the whole series, and overcame the main conflict and obstacle of the anime. She won.
This gets to the heart of why I'm mystified. You two are looking at events in terms of characterization. I'm looking at events in terms of plot mechanics.

We know all five girls, plus Hitomi and likely others in the secondary cast, will play important roles in the story. We also know that the story will be Mado-Homu centric, because that's where the story ended and the movie will take place shortly after Madoka's wish.

I'm ultimately not concerned about the writing, Gen has proven himself capable. I'm more curious about plot mechanics. Is the Sayaka in the trailer a flashback, or is she alive again? What role will the other girls play? How will Homura's powers and the wings be explained? How did the Witches return?

When I said pause button, it's because Madoka didn't really win. Just like Homura, all she really ended up doing was putting a pause button on the doom scenario. Her wish defeats the immediate issues of Walpurgis and her own Witch from destroying everything, and it helps save the girls from the nasty fate of becoming Witches as well. However it still leaves the system, and all of the despair, and the most insidious element intact: Kyubey.

In my episode 10 speculation, I surmised that Homura had to meet certain criteria to win, and she hasn't done this yet. Madoka's state is a problem, actually, because she only treated the immediate problems, but the long term ones remain. She became hope, but hope is just an ideal. It's almost like she upgraded to becoming the ultimate passive player. Yeah she saved lives, but she's not really any closer to bringing anyone true happiness or a miracle than Homura is to her goals.

If anything will be explored as a premise in the movie, I suspect it will be that none of these characters have really achieved much despite their struggles. Perhaps that is a bit of Gen's own worldviews creeping in, that you cannot solve big problems by taking them upon yourself. It's too big of a burden/job for any one person to handle.
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