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Old 2012-10-25, 09:19   Link #201
willx
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Come to think of it.... What would have happened if Napoleon managed to cross the English Channel?
Napoleanic era is definitely not my strong point, but personally I can't imagine he could have held onto it that long. I'd imagine he'd have gone straight back into Europe and pressured Prussia or Russia after "defeating" England. Then while he was gone they'd probably revolt or raise an army -- think about how Napoleon antagonized any and all other parties with the continental system .. it was either Europe or him.

I'd be more interested in an example where, related to the above, an invasion was never planned in the first place and the Louisiana Purchase never happened!
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Old 2012-10-25, 09:25   Link #202
Ridwan
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I seriously doubt invading Britain was possible. Pass Seven Years War (perhaps from earlier point), British navy has become strong enough to render any unilateral attempt on their homeland impossible.

What would've been possible perhaps would be accomodating continental Europe to alienate Britain. I like the Pressburg idea Sumeragi suggested. It looks like the best way to get a lasting French predominance in continental Europe. Talleyrand aspired for a Franco-Austrian alliance, which would be enough a juggernaut to check upon everyone, especially Prussia. Perhaps Germany won't unite with that PoD....

My focus here though isn't so much about making France Master of Europe as much as saving Indonesia from Cultuurstelsel and Algeria from utter societal dismantling and being turned into a settler colony. British rule would've been less bad for Indonesia if only because they were much more resourceful then the Dutch, and thus permitting the relative benevolence typically associate to their rule compared to other colonial masters, often distracting people from the fundamentally exploitative nature of colonialism as the norm. Nevertheless, it will still be better then Dutch rule. Also, no less interesting will be how British East Indies will affect Western activities in East Asia down the line...

As for Algeria, aside from my personal soft-spot for the country and for Magrheb in general, it will also change the dynamics of the meds throughout 19th century. Potentially it will also change significantly how colonial expansion in Africa will proceed, though Egypt will remain a bigger factor in this regard.
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Old 2012-10-25, 18:38   Link #203
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a further back,

Shades of 1632 but without Northern Virginia

Gustavus Adolphus did not died at the Battle of Lutzen
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Old 2012-10-25, 22:01   Link #204
LeoXiao
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I suddenly feel stupid for having gone to the Museum of German History in Berlin and looked through the whole thing, yet failing to know anything about the 7 years war other than that it made Prussia more powerful at France's expense.

Oh and for anyone interested, here's a map of the world in George Orwell's 1984 that I made.


Legend

Oceania (Blue): Totalitarian one-party oligarchical state adhering to the doctrine of Ingsoc. Official language is Newspeak. No official capital, but notable administrative centers are located in New York, London, Chicago, Canberra, Pretoria, Sao Paulo, and Mexico City. Population 300-500 million, spread across five continents and 35 provinces. Arose in the late 1950s after the dual revolutions of Airstrip One and America.

Eurasia (Red): Totalitarian state ruled by oligarchical triad of military, police, and party, all preaching the ideology of Neo-Bolshevism. No set official language, but French and Russian are most common and all tongues are written in Cyrillic. Capital at Moscow, with Paris, Istanbul, Zürich and Belgrade as notable secondary political centers. Population 500-600 million. Consists of 30-some Soviet Republics and 3 Soviet Federated Republics. Formed in the late 40s after WW2 with the defeat of Nazism and the Red French Revolution, and was steeled by nuclear war.

Eastasia (Green): Totalitarian state ruled by political cult committed to the "Self-Obliteration" philosophical dogma, with organizational depth permeating all levels of society. Official written language is Legislative Chinese, with regional vernaculars such as Mandarin, Cantonese, and Japanese still widespread. No actual capital, administration constantly relocates between such sites as Tokyo, Beijing, Shenyang, Chengdu, or Wuhan. Population of 900-1200 million, split into 9 Regions, 27 Provinces, and 81 Prefectures (not shown on map due to size). Formed over a long period between 1920 and 1959 through the scheming of a Manchurian secret society.

Disputed Areas (White): These are the areas that are either white, outlined in some nation's color, or colored territories that have a white outline. A colored outline means that that country has a general sphere of influence in said area, but is not "de jure" part of that country and might be lost from time to time. A white outline indicates an area that is officially considered part of a superstate's territory, but might be overrun occasionally (like northern Manchuria or the Russian Primorsk region). White means that the area is not controlled by any one nation for a significant period. The Disputed Regions are home to between 500 and 800 million people with major population centers in Ethiopia, Persia, India, Indonesia, and Egypt. Nations do exist but they are never recognized by all three superstates simultaneously, and some, such as India, are never unified.

Last edited by LeoXiao; 2012-10-26 at 20:32.
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Old 2013-05-01, 10:24   Link #205
TinyRedLeaf
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This seems like the best place to leave this video.

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Old 2013-05-01, 22:12   Link #206
Ridwan
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Heh, I almost forgot about this thread
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Old 2013-05-01, 23:00   Link #207
LeoXiao
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Great video. Europe is so complicated...
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Old 2013-05-01, 23:02   Link #208
Ridwan
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More so then India ?

Well I guess India didn't get to experience the joy of personal unions...
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Old 2013-05-01, 23:14   Link #209
LeoXiao
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Well, actually I was looking at Germany and Italy.
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Old 2013-05-02, 10:39   Link #210
NoemiChan
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Wonder what will happen if Alexander the Great entered China...
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Old 2013-05-02, 11:47   Link #211
Ridwan
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Alexander PoDs are simply done to death, especially the ones that operate on "WI Alex conquer the whole globe OMG so coool!!!" basis. I wouldn't mind discussing Alexander otherwise, but I would rather we familiarize with the limits of what he could've done beforehand, so that we can actually discuss the topic intelligently. It's not exactly an unexplored topic, so it deserves that much.

On the other topic, I've been wondering about what would a surviving Ottoman Empire have done to popular culture and how it will be represented within. With a surviving Ottoman Empire, there's bound to be some sort of cultural exporting to the West and Worldwide. Britain has Doctor Who and America has the Jersey Shore and Japan has anime. What kind of stuff would the Ottomans export ?

A wave of Ottomania swept over Europe in 18th century, so with a successful Ottoman Empire around it will certainly return. It seems that the cultural export will be more then just popular subcultures and the like, and it will effect western and world wide popular culture deeper then, say, Japanese soft power has done OTL. I'd say comparable to French and British influence. They have not only precedent, but also ready receivers in Islamic world and also western world. This is a hard matter to extrapolate beyond the broadest sense but I'm a helpless Ottoman weaboo who fantasizes about fezzes and Oil Wrestling before going to bed because why the hell not I wonder what will be their specific main export though, a rival to Japanese anime, samurai and sushi and American Hollywood, cowboys and Jazz, if you will.
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Old 2013-05-02, 12:01   Link #212
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I would think as long as radical Islam is controlled (most possible if the Ottoman managed to survive with its Southwest Asian empire intact), it will be interesting.
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Old 2013-05-02, 13:38   Link #213
Ridwan
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With Ottoman Arabia, Wahabism is toast. Prior to WW1, OE controlled both sides of Arabian Peninsula, from which the interior was supplied food and water. Saudis were at best a nuisance rather then a threat. They were not even exactly independent entity from Ottomans, instead a rebellious vassal which still acknowledged the Caliph in Constantinople. Faced with internal combustion engines, the only choice left will be either surrender or become a footnote in history.

With a rump state in Anatolia that still retains monarchy, I'd argue it will provide a more complicated political and intellectual background, with oil-fueled Wahhabism on one side and historicity-fueled Ottoman Caliphate at the other competing for influence over Islamist current worldwide.
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Old 2013-05-02, 14:21   Link #214
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I would think as long as radical Islam is controlled (most possible if the Ottoman managed to survive with its Southwest Asian empire intact), it will be interesting.
if the Ottoman empire never fall and European Colonialism was keep out of the ME. Would radical Islam ever have developed in the first place?
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Old 2013-05-02, 15:19   Link #215
Ridwan
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
if the Ottoman empire never fall and European Colonialism was keep out of the ME. Would radical Islam ever have developed in the first place?
There will be. Only in rather different flavor and focus. OE was the Islamic State so it coopted various Islamist movements, especially the Pan-Islamist bent ones. The difference here is that, without the abject self-esteem crisis we see today among muslims they will be less concerned about erratically differentiating themselves from imperialist infidels and more into assisting decolonization process by any means they deem necessary as their defining characteristic.

And now, on the topic of culture....

It seems a natural follow up to imagine something like a movie format of Muhteşem Yüzyıl standing among the blockbuster classical epics contemporary with Ben Hur, or at least among the younger line of classical epic blockbusters. Definitely not a novel, recent thing like IOTL. Osmanli Cinema Industry in general is quite possible to become a genuine equal to its American counterpart, sooner or later, exporting everything ranging from corny soap operas to decadent Istanbul-themed actions to generic medieval Islamia adventures to gritty vendettafest dramas based on Albanian mafia-dom. "Maria Mercedez" will have a worthy opponent in "Hatice My Sweet Heart". Turkey is a good enough mix of European and Oriental to appeal to people all over the developing world.

The million dollars question here would be : what'd become of anime/manga ? With Alladin and Saudi money alone, we got to see Turbans in Dragon Quest series and few other '80s stuff, and it also gave us Arslan but that's as far as it got. With more popularity and familiarity of middle eastern and Islamic culture, one would wonder what it will do to Saint Seiya. What it will do Gundam ? To Code Geass ? To Evangelion ?
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Old 2013-05-02, 21:06   Link #216
ChainLegacy
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This seems like the best place to leave this video.

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I've been a huge fan of this video ever since I first saw it. Would love to see more like this for different areas and time periods.

Speaking of maps, I recently was looking through an assortment of ancient world maps. The way different cultures perceived the world is fascinating. I was particularly impressed by the "Tabula Rogeriana," a map made by an Arab geographer for the king of Sicily shortly after the Norman conquest of the island. It is extremely accurate.

Another thing I was reading recently was about the Greco-Bactrian contacts with China. There are some pieces of artwork that have been found in China from that time period that clearly depict Greek soldiers and have Hellenistic influences. The meeting of those two cultures at such an early juncture fascinates me. On a related note, Greco-Buddhism is also very interesting. The philosophical traditions of East and West met and blended in the Greco-Bactrian kingdom.

As for an interesting "what-if?" scenario, I often wonder what would happen if the Norse settlements in Greenland and Vinland had prospered and expanded into mainland America. I am particularly curious of what little we know regarding the contacts between the Norse and the "skraelinger" Amerindians they encountered. To both sides, they were seeing a very alien group of people. The only analogous party the Vikings would have would be the Sami, who are vaguely similar but still quite different from the pre-Inuit Dorset culture.

Another good "what-if?" would be if the Europeans and Mongols had actually cemented an alliance (Franco-Mongol alliance was wiki article of the day a couple days ago, which reminded me of this). The Mongols sent envoys to the Franks and one even reached Edward I in England. Both sides were open to the alliance, but nothing ever came of it. I assume the crusader states would have survived for a longer period in such a scenario, that is if the Mongols and Europeans could actually have coordinated a united front.
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Old 2013-05-03, 06:58   Link #217
LeoXiao
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The other day I went on a whim to go see a professor whose specialty was Japanese history. Cleared up a lot of long-standing confusion I had about the nature and causes of Japanese militarism. Unlike Germany or Russia there wasn't really a dictatorial party to create the same sort of totalitarian state through a sudden coup or purge, but rather a natural collusion of radical officers, politicians and industrialists over time and manifested in a chain of incidents. Very interesting.
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Old 2013-05-03, 09:11   Link #218
Sumeragi
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For the best book in English, read The Way of the Heavenly Sword: The Japanese Army in the 1920's by Leonard Humphreys.
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Old 2013-05-03, 09:21   Link #219
MrTerrorist
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The Two Georges by Harry Turtledove.

A interesting novel of what would happen if the American Revolution was averted when King George the III meet with George Washington and both men were able to make a peace treaty where the Colonies did not seek Independence from Britain but got their fair representation in Parliament.
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Old 2013-05-03, 09:53   Link #220
Ridwan
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I've never read the book, but the general educated consensus is that direct and fair representation in London for the colonists wasn't physically viable. Self-governing Dominion is the way.
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