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Old 2012-10-26, 05:35   Link #1301
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Would you say the Sibyl System was wrong about Akane? As the apparent prime beneficiary of the system, she does not doubt the Sibyl System. That, in itself, suggests that not all is wrong in this world
But you clearly missed what I said. I didn't say the system was wrong. I said what if the system was wrong sometimes, heck even 1% of the time.

People's lives are being pigeonholed because of this system.
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Old 2012-10-26, 06:09   Link #1302
Quadratic
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The weather report is obviously a symbolical thing. You may have notice that the descriptions of people's hues use similar terminology to the weather.
Oh ha, you're right.
That is clever using weather reports to be analogous to people's mental state.

I guess Akane is the ray of sunshine, then.
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Old 2012-10-26, 06:43   Link #1303
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
They may have apprehended the criminal, but I have a feeling they didn't solve or prevent the crime.

The factory originally had a system to prevent the factory workers' Psycho-Passes from clouding over by reassigning the workers to different locations, but that practice ended a year ago. Why?

It's obvious that someone (most likely the manager) stopped it to encourage bullying. The bullies clear their Psycho-Passes by picking on someone, while the bullied clears his Psycho-Pass by retaliating in secret like Kanehara did. If the victim's Psycho-Pass does not become clear over time, the manager can let the authorities remove him.

Yes, I suspect the murders by Kanehara were also a part of the factory manager's system, considering how he can see everything with the security cameras. There is nothing to prevent another factory worker from becoming the next Kanehara.

I also suspect that the factory's isolation from the Sybil System is not just to prevent hacking, but to prevent the manager from being exposed as well. If the police do not have the Sybil System, they have no Crime Coefficients. Naturally they would go after the person with the worst Psycho-Pass, which would be the bullied-victim-turned-vengeful-murderer like Kanehara. The police would be distracted by Kanehara, and the calmer, more conspiring criminal such as the factory manager would slip under the radar everytime.
That's an interesting theory, but I think you're thinking too much.

Bullied workers were reassigned when their psycho-pass started to reach the limit. The reason Kanehara stayed longer than any other was because his hue never crossed that limit. In the eyes of the manager, he seemed to respond better to the bullying than other people and was therefore a valuable asset. There was simply no need to remove him since he was seemingly handling his "job" well.

The system as it was described in the episode is far more efficient than what you're proposing. They only have to reassign the bullied person every year or so, only one person gets hurt in the process and no personnel is lost. It's pretty simple and straightforward. However, what you're suggesting is more complicated to put in place and resulted in the deaths of 3 workers and the loss of another one. I seriously doubt these are acceptable losses for the factory. Not to mention, the manager is most likely going to get into trouble since this incident happened under his watch. The ministry won't let that slide. In the end, the murders did not benefit anybody.

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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
The read value for the guy in ep1 shot up to 300+ before he was gone. No contradictions here
I went over the first episode again but couldn't find that number. That guy's case was special anyway, since the paralyzer had no effect on him, they had no choice but to use lethal mode.

I thought the victim's CC was given when the gun switched to lethal mode but after checking again, that wasn't the case. I suppose it could have been over 265, and therefore there are no inconsistencies. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I think we have to remember that, as viewers, we are witnessing episodes where the system is being pushed to its limits. We're seeing the people who have fallen through the cracks. Because we're shown scenes of the system at its worst, we as viewers become, in effect, biased observers. We've come to view the Sibyl System as something hopelessly broken.

Imagine if I were to visit a highly developed, First World country, like the United States, for example. What if I limited my tour to only the towns and cities that are failing economically because of the ongoing financial crisis? Let's say I see only homeless people slumming in public parks, druggies in dark alleys and rampant unemployment sapping young graduates of hope, even as they struggle with crippling student loans.

Am I not likely to come to the possibly mistaken conclusion that the American capitalist system is hopelessly broken and in dire need of fixing? Indeed, those who took part in the Occupation movement earlier this year quite probably felt that way.
You seem to be misunderstanding us. Nobody is arguing that the Sybil system is helplessly broken, we're just saying it is not as perfect as the characters appear to believe. The system being flawed does not mean it's complete garbage.

As for your example... it just proves the capitalist system is as flawed if not more than the Sybil system. If it were perfect, these areas wouldn't even exist in the first place.
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Old 2012-10-26, 06:54   Link #1304
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Old 2012-10-26, 07:03   Link #1305
jeroz
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another difference between the culprit this episode and the one in ep1 is that the guy in ep1 resists even after being tranquilised. I would assume that they would still going for the paralyser first, and only go for the destructive mode if proven ineffective and requires urgent action.
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Old 2012-10-26, 07:04   Link #1306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I think we have to remember that, as viewers, we are witnessing episodes where the system is being pushed to its limits. We're seeing the people who have fallen through the cracks. Because we're shown scenes of the system at its worst, we as viewers become, in effect, biased observers. We've come to view the Sibyl System as something hopelessly broken.
But doesn't this beg the question of why are we witnessing episodes where the system is being pushed to its limits? Why is this what the author has chosen to focus on? Why not focus on episodes where the Sibyl System comes off looking better, where the criminals caught are largely unsympathetic figures where the viewers would be comfortable in seeing them brought to justice?


In the first episode, we see a rape victim get further victimized by the system. In this third episode, we see the victim of extreme bullying, who has basically snapped for that reason. And he too was thoroughly victimized by the system.

The murderer in this episode isn't the problem, he's merely a symptom of it.

The problem is the occupational system itself, in which you have all of these people who are working here (likely because the Sibyl System gave them no other options, or only this option and even worse ones), and they're cut off from any conventional method of entertaining themselves, so they turn to bullying for amusement. The system itself created these powderkeg conditions, and so the system itself has created this problem.


Honestly, I don't know how Gen could possibly make this system look any worse than what he has, short of having it be cartoonishly dystopian (I'm thinking of the last few episodes of No. 6 here). Putting aside the obvious, let's look at the subtler condemnations of it.

We have the opening scene where Mr. Cool Dude Shinya gets a minute or two of looking impeccably cool and manly. We're clearly meant to like this guy. And this same guy makes an unambiguously critical remark about the Sibyl System (and it was delivered so perfectly too!).

Meanwhile, I don't think we're meant to like Ginoza. I think he's meant to come across as something of an uncaring control freak. And guess who's the primary defender of the Sibyl System in our main cast?

Then there's Akane. Akane might not be questioning the Sibyl System yet, but she sure as heck is questioning a lot of the outcomes of it. A few more episodes like the last three, and Akane may well start questioning and doubting the system itself.


Again, I think Gen is tipping his hat in a big way here. He's restraining the crime-fighting scenarios just enough to keep them somewhat plausible and realistic, but there's no question in my mind that we're meant to be disturbed by what we're seeing. I mean, "rape victim" and "bully victim" are two of the oldest and most powerful "shock and disturb the audience" tricks in the book. And Gen has already used them both in only three episodes!

At a meta-level, the direction this anime is taking towards the Sibyl System couldn't be more clear.


Now, I don't necessarily think we're supposed to see it as entirely bad. But the narrative is clearly aiming towards the system being, at least, in severe need of serious reform.
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Old 2012-10-26, 07:53   Link #1307
Dengar
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^The point is that the system isn't wrong. What's wrong is how people go about USING the information said system provides.
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Old 2012-10-26, 08:17   Link #1308
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
But you clearly missed what I said. I didn't say the system was wrong. I said what if the system was wrong sometimes, heck even 1% of the time.

People's lives are being pigeonholed because of this system.
I wouldn't say pigeonholed, as Akane was given the option to choose between multiple careers and she decided to go with being an Inspector. It's also very likely she could have gone somewhere where her score was entirely low, but at the same time said jobs might not have interested her to begin with in the first place.

Also, if a system was wrong at least once, it is not 100% right. It's very foolish for a society to pledge blind faith in the judgment of a system that is not completely perfect.
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Old 2012-10-26, 08:20   Link #1309
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
We have the opening scene where Mr. Cool Dude Shinya gets a minute or two of looking impeccably cool and manly. We're clearly meant to like this guy. And this same guy makes an unambiguously critical remark about the Sibyl System (and it was delivered so perfectly too!).

Meanwhile, I don't think we're meant to like Ginoza. I think he's meant to come across as something of an uncaring control freak. And guess who's the primary defender of the Sibyl System in our main cast?

Then there's Akane. Akane might not be questioning the Sibyl System yet, but she sure as heck is questioning a lot of the outcomes of it. A few more episodes like the last three, and Akane may well start questioning and doubting the system itself.
Yeah, no.
Shinya is not meant to be 'good' here, he is shown as a biased and broken individual. The whole end of the episodes, the last five minutes, are all about how he purposefully engineer a situation where he can use violence.

He is not 'Cool guy Shinya', he is someone who needs his high and made sure that the murderer was caught in such a way that he could have his fun.

If there is a 'Cool Guy', it possibly the older Enforcer. My guess is, he is en ex-detective.

As for Ginoza, he is obviously meant to be someone who was like Akane (though probably not as mentally gifted and sturdy) but was burned very badly by trusting the enforcers.
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Old 2012-10-26, 08:25   Link #1310
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by velocity7 View Post
I wouldn't say pigeonholed, as Akane was given the option to choose between multiple careers and she decided to go with being an Inspector. It's also very likely she could have gone somewhere where her score was entirely low, but at the same time said jobs might not have interested her to begin with in the first place.

Also, if a system was wrong at least once, it is not 100% right. It's very foolish for a society to pledge blind faith in the judgment of a system that is not completely perfect.
I am not talking about Akane, I am talking about the latent prisoners. Once they are marked as that they have limited choice, really no choice.

And there is no way to know if the system is 100% correct in this case. It's judging a person's psychological profile before the act was committed that is what it means to be a latent criminal.
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Old 2012-10-26, 09:17   Link #1311
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What I think we’re seeing here is Gen espousing theories on several fronts, one of which is the matter of what makes a detective. I think his case – which I agree with – is that you can’t be a good detective if you don’t have a healthy dose of latent criminal intent buried inside you. That a detective needs to understand the criminal mind in order to defeat it is hardly a new idea (that’s a trend so far in P-P) but the Sybil scenario is a clever way of illustrating it.

What Sybil has produced (seemingly) is a generation of law enforcement that’s incapable of enforcing the law because they’re unable to think outside the narrow boxes Sybil has assigned them to. That the enforcers can do so is hardly surprising given their backgrounds, but the detectives like Ginoza need to maintain the fašade that they’re the ones pulling the strings, when in fact they’re simply the ones holding the leash. In the case of Akane perhaps she’s the rare exception, because her Sybil scores didn’t pigeon-hole her into being a detective – in fact, they said she was basically suited to anything she wanted to do. Or perhaps suited to nothing – which in Sybil’s eyes makes her a bad detective, but in practical terms possibly a very good one. Time will tell.
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Old 2012-10-26, 09:24   Link #1312
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Episode 3 was good.
I wonder if Episode 4 will be the "due diligence" episode like how episode 2 it for episode 1.

I'm really liking how they're giving us information about the world system and how it works while giving us an actual story to watch at the same time. Really building up the world nicely episode by episode.

I love Akane's hair style.
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Old 2012-10-26, 09:41   Link #1313
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
^The point is that the system isn't wrong.
You keep writing this, but at no point have you substantiated this argument whatsoever.

The anime is presenting us with plenty of good reasons to think that the system is deeply flawed and needs to be fixed (if not removed).


Quote:
What's wrong is how people go about USING the information said system provides.
The system is more than just the information being provided. I don't think that anybody on this thread is saying that the very existence of precise psychiatric measurements of people is necessarily a bad thing, in and of itself. But the system goes beyond simply measuring people, since the system then takes those measurements and uses it as the basis for a major, overarching socioeconomic system that is quite clearly to the extreme detriment of many people. As I argued after Episode 2, we have a societal system here that runs contrary to both liberty and equality, and so I don't see much good reason to defend it.

Hell, at this point, I'm not even sure if the Sibyl System is causing less crime on the whole. In a world without a Sibyl System, would the murderer of this episode ever have become a murderer? It was clearly the institutionally-affirmed bullying that caused him to snap and want to kill people.


I any event, the information isn't the problem, no. But yes, the system itself is causing problems. The system itself needs to at least be reformed, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gen even goes so far as to eventually have Akane overturn the entire system.


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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Yeah, no.
Shinya is not meant to be 'good' here, he is shown as a biased and broken individual.
He is also shown as strong, bold, kickass, and generally supportive of the main protagonist Akane.

Is he a somewhat "broken" individual with serious psychological issues? Sure, of course he is. Like Batman is - You know, the Batman that virtually everybody loves.

People tend to like "dark", "gritty", and "intense" characters like Shinya. Gen, of all people, is keenly aware of that.

I'm not saying that Shinya is going to get a shallow treatment, and nor will he be portrayed as always being in the right. Of course he won't. But there's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that he's carefully crafted to be a likeable, kickass protagonist that the viewer is meant to sympathize with. So Shinya clearly not being keen on the Sybil System is telling, imo.
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Old 2012-10-26, 09:45   Link #1314
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Originally Posted by velocity7 View Post
Also, if a system was wrong at least once, it is not 100% right. It's very foolish for a society to pledge blind faith in the judgment of a system that is not completely perfect.
Like for example:

Our Capitalism System: Where only a handful of people are allowed to hold the majority of the wealth.

Our Judicial System: Where individuals are still convicted on little evidence and popular opinion at the time.

Our Correctional System: Which isn't even use to correct anymore just lock'em up and toss away the key.

No system is 100% without flaws yet people swear by them solely on the fact that they work...most of the time.

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Yeah, no.
Shinya is not meant to be 'good' here, he is shown as a biased and broken individual. The whole end of the episodes, the last five minutes, are all about how he purposefully engineer a situation where he can use violence.

He is not 'Cool guy Shinya', he is someone who needs his high and made sure that the murderer was caught in such a way that he could have his fun..
I don't agree with this. I personally believe he wants to be a good guy and fight against his psychotic nature but just doesn't know how.
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Old 2012-10-26, 10:18   Link #1315
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Originally Posted by velocity7 View Post
I wouldn't say pigeonholed, as Akane was given the option to choose between multiple careers and she decided to go with being an Inspector. It's also very likely she could have gone somewhere where her score was entirely low, but at the same time said jobs might not have interested her to begin with in the first place.
But Akane is exceptional -- most people don't have a choice between eight different ministries. Her friends in episode 2 certainly didn't have that many options available to them, and those who fail a Pscyho-Pass apparently have none unless they're qualified to become enforcers.
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Old 2012-10-26, 10:28   Link #1316
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Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako View Post
and those who fail a Pscyho-Pass apparently have none unless they're qualified to become enforcers.
I would be careful about this -- a Psycho-Pass is not the same as a Crime Coefficient calculated and evaluated by the Sybil System. This episode should have made that clear.

The Enforcers are guilty of a high Crime Coefficient, not just a murky colored Psycho-Pass.
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Old 2012-10-26, 10:35   Link #1317
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
...We have the opening scene where Mr. Cool Dude Shinya gets a minute or two of looking impeccably cool and manly. We're clearly meant to like this guy....
We were already meant to like this guy, from the last ep. But the opening scenes were ambiguous for me: cool and manly, but violent and uncontrolled. Not a nice guy.

I like the ambiguities here: they caught the murderer, but wrecked the plant. Akane got a lot more than she bargained for. Ginoza made some sense, which the outcome somewhat validates (while contradicting it at the same time, since they did in fact catch the guy) but he was made to seem as if he was tipping over into a bit of madness himself, almost frothing at the mouth at anything that did not stick to normal procedure.

I'm hoping we go further in the next episode, to see the fallout, and what happens next. The supervisor is only one level. His superiors probably knew something, too, at least about the bullying. And I think even two murders should have set off alarm bells all the way up the chain into the ministry that owns the plant.
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Old 2012-10-26, 10:48   Link #1318
Kirarakim
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I actually agree with Dark Wing about Shinya. I don't think he is a bad person. In fact from the little I have seen he comes off as kind, but I do believe in his case the reading that he is a latent criminal is correct. I think he is easily swayed towards violence and perhaps breaking the law if it meets his goal.

I am not as sure about the other enforcers though. Although what Guardian En×o said about them being good at their job because of that criminal mind set makes perfect sense.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:02   Link #1319
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Masaoka is the one who's most interesting to me so far. He's clearly got the most checkered history, too.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:22   Link #1320
Utsuro no Hako
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I would be careful about this -- a Psycho-Pass is not the same as a Crime Coefficient calculated and evaluated by the Sybil System. This episode should have made that clear.

The Enforcers are guilty of a high Crime Coefficient, not just a murky colored Psycho-Pass.
Didn't the criminal in the first episode say he lost his job because of his Psycho-Pass?
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