AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-10-25, 16:30   Link #61
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
All the other masters I listed fought their "Vaders" too

Two even died at their hands.
But Obito has/had a mask! That makes all the difference in the world.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-25, 21:20   Link #62
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I did forget Haku and Zabuza, thank you for reminding me.

That being said, I was indicating an expressed sympathy on my part for Sasori and Kabuto as redeeming the characters for me rather than a strict redemptive action. To put it another way, by Kishimoto providing some context for their actions I was able to view them not as simple bad guys, but rather characters that due to flawed histories performed evil actions (this was especially true of Kabuto). So, while they did not have a strict redemptive moment, I do feel the were "redeemed" as characters if for no other reason than they became somewhat sympathetic and understandable.
The problem with this argument is that your original intent was to make this into some sort of (circumstantial) proof that Obito is going to turn to the good side. The problem is, the way the argument is formed now, all it does is imply we get to understand Obito a bit better before he snuffs it.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-25, 22:40   Link #63
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
That being said, I was indicating an expressed sympathy on my part for Sasori and Kabuto as redeeming the characters for me rather than a strict redemptive action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The problem with this argument is that your original intent was to make this into some sort of (circumstantial) proof that Obito is going to turn to the good side.
it's as Dengar puts it here. the intent of the comparisons between nagato, gaara and itachi's redemptions was to say that it was likely obito would have a similar storyline since you and others say it's Kishi's MO, which i disagree with since he's done the opposite many times as well. but if all you're saying is that there will be a sympathetic redemption in our eyes for the actions of obito, then we actually have already gotten that in this latest flashback so there really isnt anything but possible elaboration to look forward to in that regard.

on a side note, i'm hoping there isn't a bottomless pit technique that obito throws madara into while he's using a lightning technique to torture naruto...
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-25, 22:59   Link #64
Excelion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Maybe not a bottomless pit, but his Kamui dimension
Excelion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-25, 23:08   Link #65
Bassoonicmayhem
The Procrastinator
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: it's too dark to tell...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
though i agree with you for the most part, you are still way more positive than i am when it comes to naruto. i admit that kishi is better than kubo as a writer but unfortunately, i can't say that naruto still entertains me. i read naruto out of habit and because i want to read it all the way to the end. i rarely stop reading a series i've started. i want to know how it ends, that's all. so i guess, in a way, kishi still manages to interest me. but then again, kubo also does that for me. what i do enjoy is the discussions i get in this forums.
I really canít help but feel positive because I still donít feel that Naruto is as bad as Bleach (and I am a pessimistic-optimist ). There will always be times in this series where I feel like I have to grudge through it, but Iíve lost all the excitement with Bleach. Iíll get hooked on maybe one or two chapters that never get explained. But like you, I want to finish both series and itís become a habit to read them weekly. And even if I donít post on the forum, reading what others have to say about a chapter can brighten up my day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Excelion View Post
I've been conditioned to expect this in Bleach too. Villain about to be defeated? Time for a sad backstory.
Yeah but in Bleach it typically happens after the villain dies and it feels shoe-horned in. At least Kishimoto, for the most part (ignoring the numerous times Itachi has been rewritten), works in the conflict and Ďcharacter developmentí during the fight. I would say we just endured part of that. We are supposed to feel sorry for Obito in the end because his backstory will somehow conflict with some information leaked either by Madara or Kakashi (prehaps undead Rin) during these next few chapters and it will change his character into a more sympatheticĖtragic type. He will either go insane or turn on Madaraóbut it will probably be the latter. Kishimoto has done this many, many times, as James pointed out.
__________________
Speical thanks to Haladflire65 for the awesome Signature
Bassoonicmayhem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-25, 23:44   Link #66
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
The problem with this argument is that your original intent was to make this into some sort of (circumstantial) proof that Obito is going to turn to the good side. The problem is, the way the argument is formed now, all it does is imply we get to understand Obito a bit better before he snuffs it.
Okay, lets just stick with villains with extensive multi-chapter flashbacks (arguably, Kishimoto spent this larger amount of time in order to properly explore the characters): Gaara, Itachi, Kabuto, Nagato and now Obito (Orochimaru, Haku, Danzou and Kisame all had brief flashbacks, but nothing too revealing; and while Sasuke could be included on the list, there is no need to confuse matters further). Of the four we do know of, all but one were redeemed in the strictest sense. Consequently, if a villain has an extensive flashback Kishimoto is more likely to redeem the character. Simple enough?

(Have I forgotten any villain with an extensive flashback? I honestly do not remember any more...)
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 00:47   Link #67
ronin myael
lost ronin
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Okay, lets just stick with villains with extensive multi-chapter flashbacks (arguably, Kishimoto spent this larger amount of time in order to properly explore the characters): Gaara, Itachi, Kabuto, Nagato and now Obito (Orochimaru, Haku, Danzou and Kisame all had brief flashbacks, but nothing too revealing; and while Sasuke could be included on the list, there is no need to confuse matters further). Of the four we do know of, all but one were redeemed in the strictest sense. Consequently, if a villain has an extensive flashback Kishimoto is more likely to redeem the character. Simple enough?

(Have I forgotten any villain with an extensive flashback? I honestly do not remember any more...)
kabuto was not redeemed though. what kishi did with him was try to get the readers to sympathize with his character but he was not redeemed in the end. he died an ignorant fool who didn't really try to make amends for all the wrong he had done. as far as he was concerned, he did nothing wrong. but i do agree with you, kishi does seem to have the tendency to redeem his villains in the end, or at least the ones he has invested a good chunk of his plot into. if he doesn't redeem them, he tries to get his readers to understand the characters' motivations, attempting to make them seem less despicable and inhuman.

but for obito, there is a 70% chance (at the very least) that he would be redeemed. unlike kabuto who really had nothing save for the ones that were taken from him, obito still has kakashi who did/does care for him despite what obito has made himself believe. like naruto who aims to save sasuke, kakashi will try to save his friend as well.
__________________
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman)

Last edited by ronin myael; 2012-10-26 at 01:00.
ronin myael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 00:47   Link #68
Nintendo
start thinkin bout clones
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Los Angeles,California
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to Nintendo
can you imagine a bad guy who died and nothing was explained in a back story? it would be chaos. People would complain so much about how nothing was explained and since the bad guy is dead, his side of the story is lost.

so we need a back story, even if it doesn't match up with things established.
__________________
Nintendo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 02:28   Link #69
The Small One
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronin myael View Post
kabuto was not redeemed though. what kishi did with him was try to get the readers to sympathize with his character but he was not redeemed in the end. he died an ignorant fool who didn't really try to make amends for all the wrong he had done.
Kabuto is not dead. He is still alive and trapped in Itachi's Izanami. If he will ever get out of there, then as a redeemed character.
The Small One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 02:37   Link #70
ronin myael
lost ronin
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: in the recesses of my convoluted mind...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Kabuto is not dead. He is still alive and trapped in Itachi's Izanami. If he will ever get out of there, then as a redeemed character.
oh dear, you're probably right.
__________________
"Sometimes you wake up. Sometimes the fall kills you. And sometimes, when you fall, you fly."~ Neil Gaiman (The Sandman)
ronin myael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 04:54   Link #71
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
In fact, redeeming himself is the only way to break the genjutsu.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 05:30   Link #72
Suika-Esper
Sage Mode
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Obito might be the only one who can defeat Madara. He can send him to his other dimension and keep him locked away there for good. Meanwhile, now that he knows Edo Tensei, he can bring back Rin and live happily with her forever (hopefully he can figure out how to let her age appropriately) without having to use the Moon Eye technique. Bam! Redemption.
__________________
Suika-Esper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 06:24   Link #73
solidguy
I'm not a tumor
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In the dreams of beautiful women
Age: 21
what happened to the 4 legendary weapons? i always thought naruto or bee were ear marked to use them...as it takes a jincuuriki to wield them.
solidguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 07:49   Link #74
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 30
Obito has the vat, I know Temari had the fan at one point. The beads are with ginkaku inside the gourd. Not sure where the gourd and the sword are right now.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 09:59   Link #75
Ulquiorra
Espada
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
^ Tenten had the fan. It was taken away by Kumo ninja.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo View Post
can you imagine a bad guy who died and nothing was explained in a back story? it would be chaos. People would complain so much about how nothing was explained and since the bad guy is dead, his side of the story is lost.

so we need a back story, even if it doesn't match up with things established.
Hidan and Kakuzu, unlike the other Akatsuki bad guys, went out with no back story. Kishi later expanded their stories in the databook with Kakuzu gaining a slight bit of sympathy given he was poor, set up against Hashirama in a no win mission, only to be later betrayed by his village when it failed. Hidan was a complete monster with no good qualities.

This was a case of Kishi not wanting you to feel sympathetic or give you reasons for their behavior as villains. They killed Asuma and ticked off Shikamaru. That was all that mattered to their characters. They were presented as monsters, albeit funny ones, and left the manga as monsters. When Kakuzu came back as a zombie, he was given no closure like Sasori or Zabuza, and only existed to taunt and then give exposition to Team 10.

I actually wouldn't have minded more villains like those two. Villains who were simply plot devices and whose only role was to be evil puppy kicking jerks with no back story. Not neutral or even good-natured characters who went down a dark road because of some sob story that has to be explained in a long flashback.
__________________

Last edited by Ulquiorra; 2012-10-26 at 10:17.
Ulquiorra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 12:41   Link #76
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Well, there were those two hack bullies who had kidnapped Inari's mom from the Zabuza arc...and Gato, from the same arc. Also the pajama mist ninja in the forest of death, the sound five and most recently, Kisame.
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 12:58   Link #77
Ulquiorra
Espada
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
Well, there were those two hack bullies who had kidnapped Inari's mom from the Zabuza arc...and Gato, from the same arc. Also the pajama mist ninja in the forest of death, the sound five and most recently, Kisame.
Kisame's back story was shown during the Gai fight. He became disillusioned with the Kiri ninja system where killing your comrades to advance was accepted. And then bought into Obito's "truth" about the world. Kimimaro was given a sob story flashback in the anime. The other sound ninja were textbook plot device villains. And they were very effective villains. Fans still fondly remember Tayuya, Sakon, and Kidomaru even without a classic Kishimoto sympathetic back story told in a flashback.
__________________
Ulquiorra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 13:23   Link #78
itachi-san314
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Consequently, if a villain has an extensive flashback Kishimoto is more likely to redeem the character. Simple enough?
that's true, but also pretty obvious. if a villain has an extensive backstory it means that they are a complex character who has more redeeming qualities than a typical villain and therefore has a much higher chance of redeeming themselves when put in a specific scenario

Quote:
(Have I forgotten any villain with an extensive flashback? I honestly do not remember any more...)
orochimaru, who will not be redeemed if the story is good. also danzo has had numerous flashbacks now. he's always been an evil bastard and responsible for some of the other villains you mentioned becoming bad in the first place. and i'd expect madara to join this list of lengthy flashbacks with no redemption

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nintendo View Post
can you imagine a bad guy who died and nothing was explained in a back story? it would be chaos.
there are many as mentioned above (hidan, kakuzu, sound 5, etc...) it's not chaos. it's more realistic than a bad guy who chooses to die for his enemy like nagato did. although in reality, there are both types so i dont really see a problem with the diversity kishi has given his villains.

it is true that a backstory makes them more sympathetic and a long backstory increases the chances of them being redeemed, but like i said, that's pretty obvious stuff and shouldn't really be a surprise or frowned upon
itachi-san314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 13:24   Link #79
james0246
Senior Member
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulquiorra View Post
Fans still fondly remember Tayuya, Sakon, and Kidomaru even without a classic Kishimoto sympathetic back story told in a flashback.
I think people only remember Tayuya because there are lots of fans that like shipping her with Shikimaru...though that has been replaced with HinataxTayuya fans recently (which is admittedly much hotter )

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

(Plus many thought she was a potential Uzumaki based on the anime depiction of her hair colour.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's true, but also pretty obvious. if a villain has an extensive backstory it means that they are a complex character who has more redeeming qualities than a typical villain and therefore has a much higher chance of redeeming themselves when put in a specific scenario
Which is exactly what I said earlier , but you disliked the fact that I included Kabuto as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
orochimaru, who will not be redeemed if the story is good. also danzo has had numerous flashbacks now. he's always been an evil bastard and responsible for some of the other villains you mentioned becoming bad in the first place. and i'd expect madara to join this list of lengthy flashbacks with no redemption
Orochimaru and Danzou never had extensive flashbacks. Each has had maybe a few pages in a chapter at best.

That being said, I do not expect any flashbacks from Madara. Kishimoto will have already abused the technique extensively this year, so adding yet more flashbacks would be simply annoying.

Last edited by james0246; 2012-10-26 at 13:35.
james0246 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-10-26, 13:33   Link #80
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 25
Quote:
Plus many thought she was a potential Uzumaki based on the anime depiction of her hair colour.
...and she probably was an Uzumaki indeed I mean, if Karen can do it, then everyone can...right?
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
weekly spoiler discussion

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 16:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.