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Old 2012-10-26, 11:27   Link #1321
Kanon
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I'm hoping we go further in the next episode, to see the fallout, and what happens next. The supervisor is only one level. His superiors probably knew something, too, at least about the bullying. And I think even two murders should have set off alarm bells all the way up the chain into the ministry that owns the plant.
I'd like to see the aftermath too, and especially if the people in charge are going to learn anything from this incident or still keep the same system in place in spite of it all but sadly, I think the case is closed and that we'll have something completely different next week. The format of the series seems to be episodic, at least for now. That may change once we hit the second half of the series.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:31   Link #1322
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Considering they tried to sweep this entire affair under the rug, I imagine there'd be allot of typical bureaucratic blustering to try to avoid having to take responsibility for the incident.

Again, the most interesting thing will be what happens to the criminal in this incident. This is the first time afterall, that we've seen these police take in a serious criminal alive.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:34   Link #1323
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long post, just scroll up
It seems to me most of those things are done by people, not the system. The system just evaluates a person. It's society that says "We're not going to hire you if you don't have an A rank." or "Your Crime Coefficient is too high so you won't be able to have a job anywhere ever." The system doesn't say this.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:36   Link #1324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It seems to me most of those things are done by people, not the system. The system just evaluates a person. It's society that says "We're not going to hire you if you don't have an A rank." or "Your Crime Coefficient is too high so you won't be able to have a job anywhere ever." The system doesn't say this.
And for some reason, the system manages to dictate that a not grown up person is at risk of being a criminal (not factoring upbringing and whatnot). The system was done by humans to begin with, and they set the said value as not desirable. Which means: the system is flawed to begin with, since it actually put a category on the individual, which leads to the decisions we have seen.

It is basically the same as any scale system that give a numerical value to a given phenomenom and whatnot: you have a specific number of set value set already in the program leading to the reading expected and the definition of the said result. For example, Richter scale attribute a certain value to quantify the energy due to an earthquake, with the given number leading to a direct appreciation of what you can expect from the said earthquake, despite an earthquake of a specific magnitude might not lead to the textbook damage described there.
Actions done by people are merely the aftermath of it (removing the said worker from a specific ward, preventing some people to access to pure hue restricted jobs etc), but the system itself is what dictacte what an individual is, based on mere parameters. And if the parameters and definitions, as well as the conditions and extent they can be used, are wrong, the system is the flaw of it.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2012-10-26 at 11:47.
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Old 2012-10-26, 11:46   Link #1325
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An accident at a factory.
That factory manager was very suspiciously evasive.
Akane was as naive as ever...
Kogami sure knows how to "push" people to the edge.
Well, that's one was of doing things.
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Old 2012-10-26, 12:11   Link #1326
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Then there's Akane. Akane might not be questioning the Sibyl System yet, but she sure as heck is questioning a lot of the outcomes of it. A few more episodes like the last three, and Akane may well start questioning and doubting the system itself.
If, indeed, Sibyl has some ability to effect it's own self-reform, then it's possible that Akane is a reformer at heart. I think we will see a Decon-Recon switch here, where the first half points out the flaws of Sibyl, while the second half stress that there is hope so long as the system is reformable. And that Akane is one of the few rare humans with the capability of effecting and ensuring that systems continue reforming, continue changing, adapting growing.

She won't get to see the worst of society at it's height, so she chooses to go down to a prestigious seat at the gutter of the system, so as to truly appreciate it's flaws, but at the same time, constructively formulate potential reforms.

I really think that Akane isn't just an "older" Madoka in terms of Naivety and presence, she's also hope, in an extra-ordinary individual. And that's probably Urobuchi's main point here.

If I may be politically incorrect, Akane and some of Urobichi's previous characters , et all, represents Urobuchi's conception of an "Ubensmensch" that delivers hope and changes and improvements, while pointing out just what kind of qualities such a person might invoke. Moral, Benevolent Ubensmensch of a superior human nature above that of normal human nature.

It's an interesting theory. Human Nature has its Saints and Sinners, the Sinners outweigh the Saints, but Saints and Sinners are in few between. Humans are grey, in a spectrum, but Urobuchi posits that most cluster around the darker end of the spectrum. But it would take a special kind of Saint to pull off a miracle for real change to happen, in Urobuchi's worldview.

It seems that he subscribes to the Great Man Theory of history, but perhaps I'm reading to far into it. But "Great Man", or "Great Woman" in this case predominates his thinking, and I think is one of the running themes in his recent works, beyond : hur hur, the world is grimdark and irredeemably full of despair. To him, the world is Redeemable, but only through miracles. Black Swans if you will, and Akane I think is a perfect example of a moral and highly principled one.
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Old 2012-10-26, 13:28   Link #1327
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Other notables: So it seems that in order to create a "lawless" spot, you merely have to block out Sibyl radio waves. And somehow the thought of having places "without net uplink", creating places of isolation and ignorance, where violent abuse isn't merely turned a blind eye on but openly accepted, is chilling me to the bones. Utopia THAT ain't.
Not quite lawless. There was still the hue checkers. The problem, in this particular case, is that the bullied was able to kill before his hue got too bad, and paradoxically prolong his tenure as a target by using murder as his own stress relief.

But even without that, I wonder why the managers wasn't caught in some kind of liability law. I have no doubt the CCs of everyone involved in the bullying (on either side) increased, maybe permanently. A regular Sybil check should have detected it. (And if there aren't any, why would there be a queue the Dominators need to jump?) So why isn't he treated like a boss who poisons his employees and dumps toxic waste on the rest of society?


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Meanwhile, I don't think we're meant to like Ginoza. I think he's meant to come across as something of an uncaring control freak. And guess who's the primary defender of the Sibyl System in our main cast?
I don't find him entirely unsympathetic. He's been hurt, but he still tries to do his job the best he can, and to give Akane a fair shake as a colleague.

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I wouldn't say pigeonholed, as Akane was given the option to choose between multiple careers and she decided to go with being an Inspector. It's also very likely she could have gone somewhere where her score was entirely low, but at the same time said jobs might not have interested her to begin with in the first place.
But she's a rarity. Then again, I've often lamented the lack of orientation for kids, so maybe the system isn't so bad on that front.

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What I think we’re seeing here is Gen espousing theories on several fronts, one of which is the matter of what makes a detective. I think his case – which I agree with – is that you can’t be a good detective if you don’t have a healthy dose of latent criminal intent buried inside you. That a detective needs to understand the criminal mind in order to defeat it is hardly a new idea (that’s a trend so far in P-P) but the Sybil scenario is a clever way of illustrating it.

What Sybil has produced (seemingly) is a generation of law enforcement that’s incapable of enforcing the law because they’re unable to think outside the narrow boxes Sybil has assigned them to. That the enforcers can do so is hardly surprising given their backgrounds, but the detectives like Ginoza need to maintain the façade that they’re the ones pulling the strings, when in fact they’re simply the ones holding the leash. In the case of Akane perhaps she’s the rare exception, because her Sybil scores didn’t pigeon-hole her into being a detective – in fact, they said she was basically suited to anything she wanted to do. Or perhaps suited to nothing – which in Sybil’s eyes makes her a bad detective, but in practical terms possibly a very good one. Time will tell.
She's suited for everything according to Sybil - she's got all As, not all Cs. That means Sybil also thinks she'll make a good inspector.

I don't think she's very good yet, but she's just starting.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Hell, at this point, I'm not even sure if the Sibyl System is causing less crime on the whole. In a world without a Sibyl System, would the murderer of this episode ever have become a murderer? It was clearly the institutionally-affirmed bullying that caused him to snap and want to kill people.
Maybe? It's not like bullying doesn't exist IRL.
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Old 2012-10-26, 13:52   Link #1328
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Didn't the criminal in the first episode say he lost his job because of his Psycho-Pass?
No I believe he said after being flagged as a latent criminal we would lose his job and no one else would want to hire him. No different from someone in real life who would lose their job after going to prison and finding it hard to get a new when released.
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Old 2012-10-26, 14:35   Link #1329
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
And for some reason, the system manages to dictate that a not grown up person is at risk of being a criminal (not factoring upbringing and whatnot). The system was done by humans to begin with, and they set the said value as not desirable. Which means: the system is flawed to begin with, since it actually put a category on the individual, which leads to the decisions we have seen.

It is basically the same as any scale system that give a numerical value to a given phenomenom and whatnot: you have a specific number of set value set already in the program leading to the reading expected and the definition of the said result. For example, Richter scale attribute a certain value to quantify the energy due to an earthquake, with the given number leading to a direct appreciation of what you can expect from the said earthquake, despite an earthquake of a specific magnitude might not lead to the textbook damage described there.
Actions done by people are merely the aftermath of it (removing the said worker from a specific ward, preventing some people to access to pure hue restricted jobs etc), but the system itself is what dictacte what an individual is, based on mere parameters. And if the parameters and definitions, as well as the conditions and extent they can be used, are wrong, the system is the flaw of it.
I am so sorry. You lost me at "richter scale". I apologize.
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Old 2012-10-26, 15:40   Link #1330
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It seems to me most of those things are done by people, not the system. The system just evaluates a person. It's society that says "We're not going to hire you if you don't have an A rank." or "Your Crime Coefficient is too high so you won't be able to have a job anywhere ever." The system doesn't say this.
Sure the system says this. That's part of the system. You're drawing an entirely false distinction here.


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I don't find him entirely unsympathetic. He's been hurt, but he still tries to do his job the best he can, and to give Akane a fair shake as a colleague.
I never said "he's entirely unsympathetic". But his character flaws are very obvious. He views the Enforcers as something less than human when they seem perfectly human to me. He is very legalistically minded, arguably to a fault. And he doesn't seem to care about the people who falls through the cracks while Akane does seem to care about them.

In fairness to him, he's probably become jaded over time, and for understandable reasons. I get the sense that he's speaking from experience when he offers advice to Akane. He probably tried to work with the Enforcers as colleagues, only to have that nastily blow up in his face at least once or twice.


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Maybe? It's not like bullying doesn't exist IRL.
Sure, but modern society generally discourages it and tries to work against it. Bullying on the level that we saw in this episode would not be accepted in virtually any modern 1st World workplace, at least none that I'm aware of.

I'll admit that in schools, you can get some very nasty bullying and teachers turning a blind eye to it, but this sort of bullying would not go on in an actual adult workplace (at least not without heads rolling and people getting fired).

The world of Psycho-Pass, in spite of how it's clearly more technologically advanced than our own world, has some elements to it that are objectively worse than our own world. That speaks loudly and clearly to a real system failure, imo.
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Old 2012-10-26, 15:54   Link #1331
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I never said "he's entirely unsympathetic". But his character flaws are very obvious. He views the Enforcers as something less than human when they seem perfectly human to me. He is very legalistically minded, arguably to a fault. And he doesn't seem to care about the people who falls through the cracks while Akane does seem to care about them.

In fairness to him, he's probably become jaded over time, and for understandable reasons. I get the sense that he's speaking from experience when he offers advice to Akane. He probably tried to work with the Enforcers as colleagues, only to have that nastily blow up in his face at least once or twice.
Then it's the same for your boy Shinya, whose own flaws were made apparent early on.


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Sure, but modern society generally discourages it and tries to work against it. Bullying on the level that we saw in this episode would not be accepted in virtually any modern 1st World workplace, at least none that I'm aware of.
It's certainly illegal. But I'm not so sure it doesn't still happen.

And while I'm unclear about legality in that world, I'm sure it's also discouraged, at least where they get more regular access to the network. I mean, just being creepy in public can get you in serious trouble...

My point is, that case was a bit of a freak. As it would be in our world, but freaks do exist.
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Old 2012-10-26, 16:31   Link #1332
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's certainly illegal. But I'm not so sure it doesn't still happen.

And while I'm unclear about legality in that world, I'm sure it's also discouraged, at least where they get more regular access to the network. I mean, just being creepy in public can get you in serious trouble...

My point is, that case was a bit of a freak. As it would be in our world, but freaks do exist.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. We've only begun to explore the world of Psycho-Pass, so who's to say that there's not many other workplaces with issues similar to this factory's?

You yourself wondered why the manager of this factory wasn't caught in some kind of liability law. You rightly asked "So why isn't he treated like a boss who poisons his employees and dumps toxic waste on the rest of society?"

Maybe it's because bosses like this aren't all that rare in the world of Psycho-Pass, and different places of employment just keep trading their "toxic waste" off on one another, if you catch my drift.


The world of Psycho-Pass increasingly strikes me as a place that has put Law and Order above everything else, including liberty, equality, and even basic human dignity. Psycho-Pass wouldn't be the first narrative to argue that when society starts treating human beings as nothing more than collections of numbers, that society naturally becomes cold, dehumanized, harsh, and uncaring.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:16   Link #1333
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It seems to me most of those things are done by people, not the system. The system just evaluates a person. It's society that says "We're not going to hire you if you don't have an A rank." or "Your Crime Coefficient is too high so you won't be able to have a job anywhere ever." The system doesn't say this.
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Sure the system says this. That's part of the system. You're drawing an entirely false distinction here.
To throw in my two cents, this little exchange highlights one of the issues you've all been having in your discussion: you're not all on the same page about what "the system" is.

Some of you are using it to refer to the technological system that provides the CC and psycho-pass readings, others the whole societal system, and yet others, the "Sybil System" - but again, the boundaries of each of those systems are blurred and arguably different for different posters.

Might I suggest defining what you mean by "the system" (each time you post about it, if needed)? It'll be a little more effort on everyone's part (both in writing and reading), but at least you'll be able to know what each other is talking about.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:20   Link #1334
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What I'm referring to is the Sibyl System. I think that's the most pertinent system to focus on, since it's what the characters themselves are discussing.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:39   Link #1335
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Whereas I mean the society built around it. As in "fight the system!". More than just the technical developments, I mean the laws and practices they made possible, as well as the culture.

For Sybil I just say "Sybil".
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:41   Link #1336
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Can I just say that I think it is great we are having these discussions & disagreements. It's what I like best about Gen's works that they are a bit morally ambiguous. I think we are supposed to disagree like this.

It's also what I didn't like about the first episode. Things seemed way too straight forward: The System is bad and has to be over thrown.

But now I am glad we can disagree and personally I hope we continue disagreeing throughout the series, it's a sign Gen is doing what he does best.
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Old 2012-10-26, 17:45   Link #1337
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What I'm referring to is the Sibyl System. I think that's the most pertinent system to focus on, since it's what the characters themselves are discussing.
Well, regardless of what the dominator/Sibyl System decides as the best course of action, the people still has the final say in the matter (and exactly what the supervision alludes to in this episode).

Being treated like crap because of being labelled a latent criminal isn't something the system suggests, it only suggests to keep an eye out on them.
Computers lack empathy, so the people can still take whatever action at their own disgression, like Akane intervening in the situation in ep 1. Akane was then asked to explain her actions, not locked up for not listening to Sibyl.
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Old 2012-10-26, 18:13   Link #1338
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To me PP world seems to have stretched to its limits some standards of our world, like the educational system that should, along your early years, orient you toward what fits you better, simply an indication. Or the criminal justice/crime prevention that should "prevent", reduce or keep under control crimes, but we know how hard it could be depending on many factors. Nothing more than this has been altered/stretched in the PP world, apparently.
What if we would find a way to establish with a very little margin of error what's the more fitting work for each of us? Wouldn't the business companies take advantage of it? What if we would find a way to establish a way to really prevent crimes, even if with an "acceptably" margin of error? Wouldn't the crowd be charmed by this? Yes.
What I find interesting is that PP world is not just-another-dystopian-world, I mean, it seems to be not a consequence of some big war or catastrophe, but "just" of the evolution. Nothing seems to have been really imposed. The aspects described seems to be a sort natural evolution of that undetermined factors becoming determined. how would humanity adapt to it? Apparently loosing its humanity. And it doesn't seems to matter if you are at the top of the hierarchy or at the bottom of it. For these reasons I find this world a bit more creepy than a totalitarian world or whatever where laws are imposed. In this world are not, they seems to be accepted. And for the same reason I'm less judgmental than I would be toward the characters and their behaviors.
What I'm trying to say it's that I find this show intriguing
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Old 2012-10-26, 18:53   Link #1339
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It's also what I didn't like about the first episode. Things seemed way too straight forward: The System is bad and has to be over thrown.
What was shown in episodes two and three that makes the System look better to you?

As I wrote before, I think Gen has done just about everything he can to make the system look bad, short of making it cartoonish. If the system was intended to be ambiguous, I'd expect to see a couple more clear-cut positive outcomes of it to balance things out. Such balance is lacking, imo, so...


Personally, I think it's possible that Gen is aiming for Orwell-esque social commentary here.

There's many possible themes that I can already see here:

1. There are limits to how far humanity should progress in a technocratic direction.

2. Humans can be too trusting of machines or systems, and become overly complacent when it comes to practicing personal judgement.

3. Getting "tough on crime" isn't always the best answer to crime. Sometimes it's better to understand the root causes of crime (some of which are due to societal or systematic flaws), and to work to correct those root causes.


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Well, regardless of what the dominator/Sibyl System decides as the best course of action, the people still has the final say in the matter (and exactly what the supervision alludes to in this episode).

Being treated like crap because of being labelled a latent criminal isn't something the system suggests, it only suggests to keep an eye out on them.
How do you know that? Seriously, what particular scene or character quote makes you think this?

Maybe I missed something, but from what I can tell, it seems entirely possible that there's a highly advanced AI system which has been designed to carefully chart and limit the course of each human's life within the world of Psycho-Pass. Many of its "suggestions" may well be hard-and-fast "law". For example, only those with high potential for multiple disciplines, such as Akane, seem to have much flexibility when it comes to determining their course in life.

Now, of course, you can only blame an AI system so much because it was ultimately designed by humans (or a human, at least). Nonetheless, it's not hard to conceive of an AI that acts as a virtually unquestioned societal Supervisor. For all we know, the Sibyl System may be exactly that (and in fact, the way the characters talk about Sibyl suggests to me that this is what it is).


Quote:
Computers lack empathy, so the people can still take whatever action at their own disgression, like Akane intervening in the situation in ep 1. Akane was then asked to explain her actions, not locked up for not listening to Sibyl.
A couple points:

1. There have been AIs in fiction that were capable of emotion. Data and Lore of Star Trek are prominent examples here.

2. Even if Sibyl lacks empathy, maybe people themselves just don't care. Or, in fact, that might be part of the appeal of Sibyl to some folks. In real life, a lot of people think that judges tend to be too lenient when passing out sentences to convicted criminals (and in fairness, there are definitely cases where I can see why people would think that). I can see many people thinking "Finally, a computerized judge that won't be swayed by some bleeding-heart sob story; finally, criminals will get the sentences that they deserve".


As for Akane not being locked up, maybe the system gives some leeway for raw rookies. Or maybe those with high potential are given certain allowances that others aren't (notice how Shinya's home doesn't seem to have the same neat holographic technology that Akane's does - Is that because Shinya doesn't want it, or is that because the system doesn't deem Shinya as worthy of the same benefits that Akane enjoys?)


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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
What I find interesting is that PP world is not just-another-dystopian-world, I mean, it seems to be not a consequence of some big war or catastrophe, but "just" of the evolution. Nothing seems to have been really imposed. The aspects described seems to be a sort natural evolution of that undetermined factors becoming determined. how would humanity adapt to it? Apparently loosing its humanity. And it doesn't seems to matter if you are at the top of the hierarchy or at the bottom of it. For these reasons I find this world a bit more creepy than a totalitarian world or whatever where laws are imposed. In this world are not, they seems to be accepted. And for the same reason I'm less judgmental than I would be toward the characters and their behaviors.
What I'm trying to say it's that I find this show intriguing
I agree with all of this.

Psycho-Pass presents a world that's creepy precisely because it's not that hard to see how a certain technocratic vision, and a couple believable technological advancements, could take us from where we are now to what the world is like in Psycho-Pass. Like you said, nothing all that dramatic (like a nuclear world war, or something like Skynet from the Terminator movies) would be necessary for a world like Psycho-Pass' to come into existence.

The best dsytopian or cyberpunk fiction puts forwards worlds that feel like they could be just around the corner of where we are now, which is what makes them so chilling and intriguing. I view them as compelling cautionary tales of what can become of humanity if we aren't careful.
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Old 2012-10-26, 19:10   Link #1340
Dengar
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Sure the system says this. That's part of the system. You're drawing an entirely false distinction here.
Do you have an example?
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