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Old 2012-10-27, 03:27   Link #421
ZeKeR
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thanks, renegade.

also, why you girls afraid of armor? its not like 2-5 MBT's can rape an army.... right?
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Old 2012-10-27, 04:10   Link #422
Renegade334
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It's more about their superstition-fueled fear of the unknown and the inexplicable, I think. You've got some massive hulk made of heavy metal that trundles across the landscape that can match the speed of a warhorse (some MBTs can drive as fast as a horse, even off-road - especially the lighter ones and not the heavier models like the M1A2 Abrams), yet you can't see what makes it move. It could be alive and sentient, but you can't make out any eyes, legs or anything that belies its biological nature. Also, it makes some sort of godawful noise whenever it accelerates or tries to clear a slope - is it a living being's roar? The mystery continues. And here comes the brain's message: fatal error; does not compute; attempting to reboot.

Furthermore, those big thingies are apparently made of metal -thus, armor- so it's not something you can stop with mere arrows, lances and blades. Which means that if they charge at their legions, they can plow right through an entire phalanx with relative impunity (barring the presence of ballistas and other ranged war engines to weather the massive onslaught).

And...the chapter shows that it's not just four-five MBTs that are performing training maneuvers - it's an entire group of them. And Piņa just witnessed what twenty or more AH-1 Cobras and UH-1 Hueys could do to a rogue army, so it'd be logical for her to assume that these crawling metal beasts could be as lethal as their flying counterparts, if not even more. She hasn't seen them in action yet, but it'd be safe for her to assume that they took part in the hostilities that ended with 100,000 imperial corpses littering the surroundings of Alnus Hill.

Final reaction: oh crap, that doesn't look good.
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Old 2012-10-27, 05:24   Link #423
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
It's more about their superstition-fueled fear of the unknown and the inexplicable, I think. You've got some massive hulk made of heavy metal that trundles across the landscape that can match the speed of a warhorse (some MBTs can drive as fast as a horse, even off-road - especially the lighter ones and not the heavier models like the M1A2 Abrams), yet you can't see what makes it move. It could be alive and sentient, but you can't make out any eyes, legs or anything that belies its biological nature. Also, it makes some sort of godawful noise whenever it accelerates or tries to clear a slope - is it a living being's roar? The mystery continues. And here comes the brain's message: fatal error; does not compute; attempting to reboot.

Furthermore, those big thingies are apparently made of metal -thus, armor- so it's not something you can stop with mere arrows, lances and blades. Which means that if they charge at their legions, they can plow right through an entire phalanx with relative impunity (barring the presence of ballistas and other ranged war engines to weather the massive onslaught).

And...the chapter shows that it's not just four-five MBTs that are performing training maneuvers - it's an entire group of them. And Piņa just witnessed what twenty or more AH-1 Cobras and UH-1 Hueys could do to a rogue army, so it'd be logical for her to assume that these crawling metal beasts could be as lethal as their flying counterparts, if not even more. She hasn't seen them in action yet, but it'd be safe for her to assume that they took part in the hostilities that ended with 100,000 imperial corpses littering the surroundings of Alnus Hill.

Final reaction: oh crap, that doesn't look good.
and the guns can make short work of walls if they want the direct and brutal force instead of bombarding the sections of defensive walls. hell they might interpret the fire support guy as the one making all that explosion magic.

pretty sure its that, ren. if anachronism dictates, even if you're wearing the hauberk during the crusades yet carry an assault rifle or LMG/SAW, they'll either see you as a magic user that creates thin fireballs coming out from a weird looking crossbow or the "powah of deeeemons!" shit the church utterly loathes. I wonder how they're gonna react when those MBTs (the Japanese T90(?) is fast, right?) is about to charge right into a line while arrows are simply bouncing off it, the mighty ballista (seriously, how can one GIANT bolt do shit? explain plx) bolts simply ineffective and stone flingers only dealing possible damage to the freakin NV sensors.

if their medieval tech is what I think it is, then the similar yet outmatched counterpart would be the heavy chariot, war elephant and an improvised firebase where a siege weapon, lets say a ballista, is mounted on a platform with wheels.

I doubt their AP arrows could do much against the modern kevlar. they'll believe flashbangs are blinding magic, nades as a "small" form of explosion magic, and the radio as a teleportation tool.
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Old 2012-10-27, 06:24   Link #424
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Hope we see a translation to 15 soon. It seems like the wizard girl was explaining the mechanics of the modern weapons to the imperials. Though they seem incredibly impressed with their military technology, they seem rather flabbergasted by dust.

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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
thanks, renegade.

also, why you girls afraid of armor? its not like 2-5 MBT's can rape an army.... right?
Yes. Yes they could.


Not sure about the JSDF tanks, but an Abrams tank carries about 40+ 120mm rounds, 900 rounds for the .50 machine guns, and 8000 rounds of 7.62mm. So a tank platoon has MORE than enough ammunition to destroy an army, especially when you consider that the Co-axle machine gun on a modern tank is stupidly accurate, considering it's braced to a 60 ton vehicle, is mechanically aimed, and has laser range finding. There's a guy on another forum I go to that's an ex Army tanker, and he commented that a modern MBT tank would be the perfect tool for killing a zombie horde. Since a Coaxle would be accurate and stable enough to just sweep it across the line of heads, and he'd have thousands of rounds of 7.62mm from which to use.




Guys with machine guns, in light vehicles are bad enough, but they're not existentially terrifying for the imperials. Since they could at least conceive of maybe getting lucky and closing in with the JSDF, and getting some lucky hits in. Helicopters and Tanks are terrifying, in that there's nothing a medieval army has in their arsenal that can combat them.


Of course once Imperial realizes just how far out, and how accurately a modern force can call in a fire mission of 155mm howitzers, I think she's gonna change her mind about the most OP asset they have.

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Old 2012-10-27, 06:36   Link #425
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
(seriously, how can one GIANT bolt do shit? explain plx) bolts simply ineffective
Depends on the size of the bolt, the range, the angle of impact and the kinetic energy behind - it might not be enough to pierce an MBT's Chobham/rolled homogeneous armor (RHA), but it could pose a problem for the LAVs/4x4s, which have thinner skins/armor skirts.

And, I'm not sure if the novels said anything about the Empire building any super weapons, but in our own world, there are real-life instances of oversized ranged weapons capable of shooting 200lbs+ projectiles, built with the express purpose of inspiring fear within the enemy camp.

Quote:
and stone flingers only dealing possible damage to the freakin NV sensors.
Or damage trackbelts and maybe even deal slight damage to the slabs of metal protecting the engines (Diesel or gas turbine), resulting in what soldiers call a "mobility kill". It could be even worse if the said projectile is a jar filled with burning oil - the fluid could set fire to the engine (and this has happened to Abrams MBTs in Iraq, where fuel jerrycans stored on the rack at the back of the turret were hit by enemy fire and dripped onto the gas turbine, forcing the crew to bail out).

Furthermore, a stone weighing several kilos and falling from above might not penetrate RHA armor, but it could dent it - and the concussion could cause internal damage (even though tanks are designed to prevent that) and minor spalling. I do not believe a projectile shot from a trebuchet or mangonel (the Empire seems to be mixture of Middle Ages/Roman Empire, so I'm on the outs as to which one would be more pertinent) can puncture an MBT's armor, but it could cause some degree of damage, provided the projectile is heavy enough and one of the men manning the engine is lucky enough to score a hit. Stone flingers are actually much more efficient against massed infantry, but the JSDF would have their troops safely ensconced within APCs while on the move rather than let them do a WWI-style infantry charge.

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I doubt their AP arrows could do much against the modern kevlar.
Kevlar is actually weak against bladed weapons, which retain constant thrust even after contact with the bulletproof vest (the kinetic energy of a bullet is quickly dispelled upon contact, which is not the case with a knife, where the pressure is prolonged). So an arrow, with a pointy tip (that can actually part the Kevlar webbing because it's extremely narrow, compared to bullet, which can be slowed down and eventually stopped by the said webbing, like a large fish caught by a net), actually has better chance of penetrating a Kevlar vest. Note: there are stabproof vests out there, but they aren't 100% bulletproof IIRC.

That's one of the reason why people started R&D'ing stuff like Dragon Skin, which could be both stabproof and bulletproof (note: a more accurate term would "bullet-resistant", not "bulletproof").

Besides...you forget that not all of the human body is protected by Kevlar and metal plates. Throat, face, arms, thighs, legs, feet - all of that is unprotected with most standard-issue armor and if you are unlucky enough, an arrow can pierce an artery and have you bleed to death - that is, if you don't die from shock already (there is a reason why some wildlife hunters prefer compound bows to rifles - arrows can sometimes be more efficient).
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Old 2012-10-27, 06:50   Link #426
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post
Depends on the size of the bolt, the range, the angle of impact and the kinetic energy behind - it might not be enough to pierce an MBT's Chobham/rolled homogeneous armor (RHA), but it could pose a problem for the LAVs/4x4s, which have thinner skins/armor skirts.

And, I'm not sure if the novels said anything about the Empire building any super weapons, but in our own world, there are real-life instances of oversized ranged weapons capable of shooting 200lbs+ projectiles, built with the express purpose of inspiring fear within the enemy camp.
The problem of course now being, trying to use these unwieldy siege weapons against fast moving vehicles. And setting up an ambush position to hit them from.

Remember. Modern vehicle crew have to be trained to spot infantry with RPG crews trying to ambush them at these ranges. Spotting a ballista or a Trebuchet would be even easier.
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Kevlar is actually weak against bladed weapons, which retain constant thrust even after contact with the bulletproof vest (the kinetic energy of a bullet is quickly dispelled upon contact, which is not the case with a knife, where the pressure is prolonged). So an arrow, with a pointy tip (that can actually part the Kevlar webbing because it's extremely narrow, compared to bullet, which can be slowed down and eventually stopped by the said webbing, like a large fish caught by a net), actually has better chance of penetrating a Kevlar vest. Note: there are stabproof vests out there, but they aren't 100% bulletproof IIRC.
Keep in mind, modern military body armor doesn't use Kevlar to stop rifle rounds. That's why they have hard ballistic inserts. I don't think an arrow would be able to insta pierce that.

Of course the power of infantry with auto rifles versus bowmen isn't the armor of the infantry. It's their increased firepower and accuracy. Riflemen just have so much more firepower than archers...who aren't going to stand out in the open as they're mowed down like they're robots. The inclination of the archers is gonna be to duck their heads.

In 20-30 seconds, the only archers who are still alive will be the most cowardly( prudent?) ones that took cover.
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Old 2012-10-27, 07:07   Link #427
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@Roger: I believe there's a matter, although its futile against most, would be to turn the ballista into AA (if there's a dragon, there's a high chance that one of the defenses will include a massive ballista or crossbow on a swivel that nods and turns sideways), use catapults/trebuchets/mangonels that fling big nets instead of the normal rock or incendiary projectile or simply use the arrow hails to try and force the helo to land. a magnificent bastard could fire a well placed hit on the main rotors or the tail rotors for the lulz.

@Renegade: and here I thought the turret was similarly armored to its chassis. the spalling you mentioned could destroy the radio if it was located in the turret and the rocks COULD dent the main gun if the one who's behind the engine is also a magnificent bastard. I did remember the Greeks trolling with Greek Fire during that war I forgot that was effective as shit against boats and bunched up infantry. Romans would use it in forested areas where the clay jar breaking COULD up the butthurt. I'm not sure what would happen if an incendiary projectile hitting the MBT would do to it and crew.

in c15 I'm pretty sure that that shrewd asshole is talking to them about the maltreatment that knight commander did to Itami and the whole "we'll report the beating of Itami as a sign of aggression" shit. at least Itami's a humanitarian, and he's drawing the affection of the ladies.

EDIT:
well, they can fruitlessly make impromptu emplacements like a dirt wall that has a narrow opening for the ballista bolt to go through or spider holes for the archers since an average archer could only fire 12 per minute while an assault rifle can pretty much go seven-fold at what the archer could deal with. another is ballistics which can affect accuracy. bullets spin but arrows do not.

also, its time they used their brains and dig giant holes deep enough to swallow an MBT, but NV equipped devices will prevent them from doing just that.
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Old 2012-10-27, 07:34   Link #428
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
@Roger: I believe there's a matter, although its futile against most, would be to turn the ballista into AA (if there's a dragon, there's a high chance that one of the defenses will include a massive ballista or crossbow on a swivel that nods and turns sideways), use catapults/trebuchets/mangonels that fling big nets instead of the normal rock or incendiary projectile or simply use the arrow hails to try and force the helo to land. a magnificent bastard could fire a well placed hit on the main rotors or the tail rotors for the lulz.
That...is INCREDIBLY unlikely to work.


Even if a Helicopter was flying at lower altitudes (it can easily fly above the range that you'd be able to hit it even if you had rifles) at a sluggish speed...you'd still need a mental super computer to calculate the velocity of the helicopter, and the arch of the net flying through the air to catch it.
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also, its time they used their brains and dig giant holes deep enough to swallow an MBT, but NV equipped devices will prevent them from doing just that.
You'd need a pretty big hole to do that...and at best, you're only going to temporarily inconcinience one tank. It's buddies are likely to hold up and cover it until it can get dug out, probably call in infantry support to.
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Old 2012-10-27, 07:46   Link #429
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That...is INCREDIBLY unlikely to work.


Even if a Helicopter was flying at lower altitudes (it can easily fly above the range that you'd be able to hit it even if you had rifles) at a sluggish speed...you'd still need a mental super computer to calculate the velocity of the helicopter, and the arch of the net flying through the air to catch it.

You'd need a pretty big hole to do that...and at best, you're only going to temporarily inconcinience one tank. It's buddies are likely to hold up and cover it until it can get dug out, probably call in infantry support to.
well... it was effective against carriage tier vehicles, though.

the only thing left is to bog infantry down with terrain (helos are OP so lets let them fight even ground) and traps instead of attacking, but hey, the ruler's hubris is rubbing in his generals and they don't know the full effect of what they're messing with until the 155's and 105's are in position to bombard them out of the blue, MBT's rolling towards their capital city, UH-1's loaded with squads and Cobras shattering the peaceful skies and light vehicles, AVF's and IFV's come rolling on the plain.

as my friend who plays RTS games (he absolutely HATES sneaky tactics which I am fond of doing) said once:

"ambushes are for pussies."
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Old 2012-10-27, 07:59   Link #430
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well... it was effective against carriage tier vehicles, though.

the only thing left is to bog infantry down with terrain (helos are OP so lets let them fight even ground) and traps instead of attacking, but hey, the ruler's hubris is rubbing in his generals and they don't know the full effect of what they're messing with until the 155's and 105's are in position to bombard them out of the blue, MBT's rolling towards their capital city, UH-1's loaded with squads and Cobras shattering the peaceful skies and light vehicles, AVF's and IFV's come rolling on the plain.

as my friend who plays RTS games (he absolutely HATES sneaky tactics which I am fond of doing) said once:

"ambushes are for pussies."
Carriage tier vehicle...just what in a tank makes you think it looks like a carriage tier vehicle? LOL! Anyway, a quick way to end the war, in my opinion, is just drop an entire division of paratroopers into the imperial capital and captured both the imperial palace and the emperor. The empire would be paralysed internally--making any conquest much easier.
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Old 2012-10-27, 08:17   Link #431
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Carriage tier vehicle...just what in a tank makes you think it looks like a carriage tier vehicle? LOL! Anyway, a quick way to end the war, in my opinion, is just drop an entire division of paratroopers into the imperial capital and captured both the imperial palace and the emperor. The empire would be paralysed internally--making any conquest much easier.
lol no. I mean the horse-drawn ones. I automatically thought of carriage since its the only vehicle(?) that came to mind. a heavy chariot trapped or a supply carriage full of essential crap for the war effort in a deep pit just to troll the enemy.

if I remember correctly, the heavy chariot was duly effective up close if the side wheels had either blades or long spikes, coupled with the additional riders, most probably archers or crossbowmen, make it something. bad thing is that the people in the chariot are exposed as hell and all it needs is a well placed shot to take out the reins handler. the other lulz-concept I think was unlikely is a full carriage with small firing ports for crossbows. accuracy just went down considerably but it gives defense, albeit its too ridiculous.
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Old 2012-10-27, 08:33   Link #432
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Keep in mind, modern military body armor doesn't use Kevlar to stop rifle rounds. That's why they have hard ballistic inserts. I don't think an arrow would be able to insta pierce that.
I know about the metal plates they insert within their body interceptors to further absorb small arms fire - I did mention "metal plates" in my post, didn't I? But as I also said, there are enough unprotected parts on a soldier's body that can be hit by a stray arrow - like arms, thighs, throats - etc. If an artery get ripped open, you could bleed to death in a matter of minutes regardless of how much body armor you were wearing.

But then there are two prerequisites for this scenario:
  • The JSDF commander must be overconfident enough to let his men take the brunt of a full archer volley instead of letting the Komatsu LAVs, SPAAG and other armored vehicles do the dirty work for them.
  • Soldier discipline is sternly enforced and the soldiers actually move out with a full set of body armor. Back in 1993, during the infamous Battle of Mogadishu (Operation Gothic Serpent), some U.S. Army Rangers removed the metal plates from their body armor because they thought they were going to have an easy day with the "skinnies" (a scene you even see in the movie Black Hawk Down if any of you have watched it) and did not want to be overencumbered - leading to some tragic results (some soldiers only removed the plate on the back of their vests, which means that when they were shot in the back during an ambush, the bullet zipped through the soldier's body, bounced off the front plate and tumbled backwards, causing even more damage in the chest area. Arrows don't behave like that, I know - and here's to hoping the JSDF doesn't start getting overconfident with their technological superiority, it could lead to imprudence and fatal results like it did in Somalia.

Quote:
Of course the power of infantry with auto rifles versus bowmen isn't the armor of the infantry. It's their increased firepower and accuracy. Riflemen just have so much more firepower than archers...who aren't going to stand out in the open as they're mowed down like they're robots. The inclination of the archers is gonna be to duck their heads.
If the riflemen don't have a direct line of fire to the archers because they're using thick palisades or are hiding behind a hill (from which they shoot arrows in the air with a low parabolic trajectory), they could still pose a threat to the riflemen beyond.

Assuming of course that by then the JSDF commanders haven't called in air support or an artillery barrage already.

And this scenario would imply the Empire already figured out that the rifles are magic implements, but devices that propel small projectiles forward, like a souped-up bow. At this moment, they haven't - they still think it's magic, so maybe a magic ward could provide some protection, if such things do exist?

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@Roger: I believe there's a matter, although its futile against most, would be to turn the ballista into AA (if there's a dragon, there's a high chance that one of the defenses will include a massive ballista or crossbow on a swivel that nods and turns sideways), use catapults/trebuchets/mangonels that fling big nets instead of the normal rock or incendiary projectile or simply use the arrow hails to try and force the helo to land. a magnificent bastard could fire a well placed hit on the main rotors or the tail rotors for the lulz.
The only way the Empire could really annoy air support would be by creating a massive smokescreen to deny direct eye contact with the ground and thus prevent the gunships from accurately telling where the targets are. But with onboard FLIRs (Forward Looking InfraRed camera), this shouldn't be a problem. Range fire (Hellfires, TOWs, FFARs) should fix this, too.

Or the Empire could attempt to use small dragons to harass the choppers.

Quote:
@Renegade: and here I thought the turret was similarly armored to its chassis. the spalling you mentioned could destroy the radio if it was located in the turret
It usually is, since that's where the tank commander is seated. One of the main concerns for MBT crewmen is the targeting/comm equipment getting disconnected by the sheer concussion of a direct hit (no hull breach, no spalling, just a massive jolt caused by the hit) and suddenly being blind/deaf and mute on the battlefield.

Quote:
and the rocks COULD dent the main gun if the one who's behind the engine is also a magnificent bastard.
If the shooter is REALLY lucky and the projectile heavy enough, he could even bend the barrel, which is nevertheless supposed to be extremely solid and not easily deformable. But the Empire artillerymen have far better chances taking out the optronics/targeting devices on top of the turret rather than nicking the barrel.

And, yes, I know there are issues with adjusting the aim of war engines when you're up against fast-moving vehicles. But trebuchets and mangonels were designed to fight against massed infantry and take down walls, not MBTs. Still, they're the most potent threat on a battlefield, since they're the only things that can, in theory, damage a heavily armored tank.

Quote:
I did remember the Greeks trolling with Greek Fire during that war I forgot that was effective as shit against boats and bunched up infantry. Romans would use it in forested areas where the clay jar breaking COULD up the butthurt. I'm not sure what would happen if an incendiary projectile hitting the MBT would do to it and crew.
Nothing much, actually - the tank's interior is heavily armored and I've heard several people calling the driver's box of a M1A2 Abrams a "steel coffin" because of the extensive shielding and the fact that there's not much room to move around. Also, as I said, the big problem would be the boiling incendiary fluid seeping through the exhaust vents/air intakes behind and around the turret (I think the Abrams has one on the left side, half-hidden by its massive turret) and causing the Diesel engine/gas turbine to catch fire. In which case, due to increased risks of explosion, the crew needs to bail out ASAP.

But otherwise, if we're talking about rolling through a burning meadow, there's no problem unless you decide to idle for too long (and the sensors start to melt, the machine guns on top of the turrets start to misfire on their own because the bullets are overheating, etc). The tanks have their own air filters (some models like the Abrams do have NBC protection straight out of the box) and they can bug the hell outta there in no time, unless the ground's muddy and prevents the vehicle from making a swift exit.

Quote:
also, its time they used their brains and dig giant holes deep enough to swallow an MBT, but NV equipped devices will prevent them from doing just that.
Rather than direct confrontation, I think the best and only way for the Empire to score hits against the JSDF would be to attack FOB (Forward Operating Base) camps in the middle of the night, with guerilla warfare. But I don't think they are well-versed in that or can even think up such a concept.

In WWI, both sides dug trenches to prevent tanks from crossing over, but the Brits (who fielded the first tanks on the battlefield) solved the problem by equipping their vehicles with fascines, bundles of wood that could be dropped inside the trenches to bridge the gap (which is faster than requesting a military bulldozer to come forth and refill the trench). In WWII, they used Czech hedgehogs to impede tank movement, but those could be blown up or removed by military engineers. Both devices (trenches, hedgehogs) could be the Empire's best shot at making tank movement much more difficult, but they are not infallible. They can only stall, not stop.

If anything, they could be good as immobilizing the tanks long enough for the catapults/trebuchets/mangonels/ballistas (preferably hidden behind a hill, away from JSDF sight) to start shooting their deadly payload on virtually sitting ducks.
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Old 2012-10-27, 09:12   Link #433
Moe Connection
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You know what? The Empire's best chance is to pay whatever the Japanese asks them, preferably in cash, and then try and learn as much from the Japanese about modern technology and westernize(I guess I played too much EU3). The more they fight, the more the Japanese public would demand in the event of victory.
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Old 2012-10-27, 14:49   Link #434
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Originally Posted by Renegade334 View Post



It usually is, since that's where the tank commander is seated. One of the main concerns for MBT crewmen is the targeting/comm equipment getting disconnected by the sheer concussion of a direct hit (no hull breach, no spalling, just a massive jolt caused by the hit) and suddenly being blind/deaf and mute on the battlefield.





Nothing much, actually - the tank's interior is heavily armored and I've heard several people calling the driver's box of a M1A2 Abrams a "steel coffin" because of the extensive shielding and the fact that there's not much room to move around. Also, as I said, the big problem would be the boiling incendiary fluid seeping through the exhaust vents/air intakes behind and around the turret (I think the Abrams has one on the left side, half-hidden by its massive turret) and causing the Diesel engine/gas turbine to catch fire. In which case, due to increased risks of explosion, the crew needs to bail out ASAP.


Being a Ex-tanker myself before i opted for a different calling in my life. I can tell you that it takes a very heavy "jolt" to do any real internal damage to the tank. The crew might be shaken or even injured but the tank will be more or less fine. We had vehicles that got hit by IEDs and RPGs and the internal systems were more or less fine.The radios(every MBT i ve known carried more than one radio) and sights for the gunner and commander are build pretty tough. The only way i can see the tank being deafened and blinded would be for both the radio antennas getting destroyed "completely" (you can have a half of one antenna and you still would have comms on one radio but shorter range of course.) and the commander's hunter killer sight(generally a protruding dome on top of the tank) getting crushed/damaged by a falling rock, the gunner's own sights generally sits low and is more armored and less delicate than the commander's sight.


and as to the engine on a tank getting caught on fire. well the M1 abrams are gas turbines powered so they are far more likely to catch fire from the simplest things, But just about every other modern MBT in the world is diesel powered and diesel doesn't nearly catches on fire as easily or as catastrophically as gas do. even if the tank engine or even the inside of the crew compartment do catch on fire the fire itself would be extinguished in less than a second if the vehicle have a working AFES (Automatic Fire extinguishing system) installed. We have made some pretty neat advances and improvement to old fire fighting gear installed in vehicles in the last decade and modern AFES system kills the fire in your fighting vehicle before the crew even knows there is a fire most of the time. though you will known it soon though because how most AFES system works is by taking away the oxygen in the immediate areas inside the tank and around it and thus no fire could sustain or start cause there is no air to burn. Though the crew would not be able to breath for a few seconds and your engine will not start because there is no oxygen to breath and burn but its better than being flash burned alive trapped in the vehicle. I know it works as advertised because i was in a tank when we caught fire in the engine during an attack and it most likely saved my life.
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Old 2012-10-27, 19:45   Link #435
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by Angrypokstick View Post
Being a Ex-tanker myself before i opted for a different calling in my life. I can tell you that it takes a very heavy "jolt" to do any real internal damage to the tank. The crew might be shaken or even injured but the tank will be more or less fine. We had vehicles that got hit by IEDs and RPGs and the internal systems were more or less fine.The radios(every MBT i ve known carried more than one radio) and sights for the gunner and commander are build pretty tough. The only way i can see the tank being deafened and blinded would be for both the radio antennas getting destroyed "completely" (you can have a half of one antenna and you still would have comms on one radio but shorter range of course.) and the commander's hunter killer sight(generally a protruding dome on top of the tank) getting crushed/damaged by a falling rock, the gunner's own sights generally sits low and is more armored and less delicate than the commander's sight.


and as to the engine on a tank getting caught on fire. well the M1 abrams are gas turbines powered so they are far more likely to catch fire from the simplest things, But just about every other modern MBT in the world is diesel powered and diesel doesn't nearly catches on fire as easily or as catastrophically as gas do. even if the tank engine or even the inside of the crew compartment do catch on fire the fire itself would be extinguished in less than a second if the vehicle have a working AFES (Automatic Fire extinguishing system) installed. We have made some pretty neat advances and improvement to old fire fighting gear installed in vehicles in the last decade and modern AFES system kills the fire in your fighting vehicle before the crew even knows there is a fire most of the time. though you will known it soon though because how most AFES system works is by taking away the oxygen in the immediate areas inside the tank and around it and thus no fire could sustain or start cause there is no air to burn. Though the crew would not be able to breath for a few seconds and your engine will not start because there is no oxygen to breath and burn but its better than being flash burned alive trapped in the vehicle. I know it works as advertised because i was in a tank when we caught fire in the engine during an attack and it most likely saved my life.
I believe that somewhere in the engine compartment there's a sensor that detects fire and instantly applies the extinguisher. unless the crew mechanic can simply fix the engine (I think the engine that just underwent baptism of fire CAN'T start and may require that it dragged to base or put in a new engine) and douse the external fires, then there. also, the commander's hatch with the viewports is that... err... thin for a siege engine rock projectile to destroy it? I will lulz so hard if ever the autoloader got shook up during a rock's hit at an MBT.

you can probably troll the FLIR with setting fires, but this will warrant as scorched earth.
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Old 2012-10-27, 20:29   Link #436
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Hope we see a translation to 15 soon. It seems like the wizard girl was explaining the mechanics of the modern weapons to the imperials. Though they seem incredibly impressed with their military technology, they seem rather flabbergasted by dust.
I think what happened was that Lelei mentioned to Pina that the JSDF's weapons aren't magical in nature, but rather technological tools. That got her thinking about trying to get hold of one, but Lelei said it was pointless - she explained what the "small" in "small arms" meant, and that the tanks were examples of larger armament.
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:13   Link #437
Renegade334
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Originally Posted by ZeKeR View Post
I believe that somewhere in the engine compartment there's a sensor that detects fire and instantly applies the extinguisher. unless the crew mechanic can simply fix the engine (I think the engine that just underwent baptism of fire CAN'T start and may require that it dragged to base or put in a new engine) and douse the external fires, then there. also, the commander's hatch with the viewports is that... err... thin for a siege engine rock projectile to destroy it?
The AFES angrypokstick mentioned does save lives, but there were still some instances of M1 Abrams getting disabled in Iraq because of the aforementioned burning jerrycans on the turret's bustle racks, releasing their contents on top of the engine cover. There were even cases (you can even see a picture of a quite well-known example on the Wikipedia page for the M1 Abrams) where the damage was so extensive the crew had no choice but to bug out and scuttle the tanks by calling in friendly fire (a Maverick and a 120mm sabot - and even after such abuse, the tank was still relatively intact). Even if the AFES does snuff out the fire by eliminating the surrounding oxygen, if the dripping oil is hot enough it can still cause damage to the wiring around the gas turbine (note: the said wiring is supposed to be waterproof as the said engine compartment can be flooded when the Abrams is wading through water). It'll be much harder with a Diesel engine (the JSDF uses Diesel-powered MBTs, IIRC), though.

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I will lulz so hard if ever the autoloader got shook up during a rock's hit at an MBT.
Abrams do not have autoloaders - the designers ruled this out because they were worried about things breaking down in the middle of battle and adding too many complicated systems inside an already high-tech machine. Furthermore, the loader (the crewmember, I mean) can load the Rheinmetall canon as fast as an autoloader, so the guys at Chrysler (the people who originally designed the M1) decided it was not worth cramming an additional piece of machinery inside the turret. Abrams do have autostabilizers and auto-targeting, though. On the other hand, the T80 (and the T72, too, IIRC) does have autoloading.

The Japanese Type 74 (shown in ch.15) prototype did have an autoloader, but it proved to be too complicated and pricey and was eventually removed from the mass production version. The later Type 90 and Type 10, OTOH, are equipped with autoloaders.

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you can probably troll the FLIR with setting fires, but this will warrant as scorched earth.
The Empire knows nothing about FLIR, so they have no reason to light fires, unless they're trying to force the invading troops into retreating by setting the ground in front of them on fire...and they inadvertently cause the thermal sights to become useless. But then again, I don't think scorched earth tactics have a role in a direct confrontation. This is a denial tactic for retreating troops, not advancing ones.
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Old 2012-10-28, 10:51   Link #438
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I think the question that's worth asking with regards to tank, if if a siege crossbow has remotely enough kinetic energy or momentum to bust up an Abrams.

I mean, the Rheinmetall 120mm can shot a 10 pound depleted Uranium dart sabot at over a kilometer and a half per second (It has a kinetic energy of 5.7 megajules). And Modern tank armor is designed to defend against things like this. You're not gonna have luck with medieval siege weapons, nor are you going to have the accuracy to make aimed shots to try to muck up delicate things on the vehicle.


And really. Even if the Imperials managed to get their hands on anti tank guns, they'd still be at a significant disadvantage even on the defense. Simply because cannons and siege weapons are static. A formation of tanks can outmanuever them, or launch thrusts against the spread out guns trying to defend a wide area.
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Old 2012-10-28, 20:03   Link #439
ZeKeR
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
I think the question that's worth asking with regards to tank, if if a siege crossbow has remotely enough kinetic energy or momentum to bust up an Abrams.

I mean, the Rheinmetall 120mm can shot a 10 pound depleted Uranium dart sabot at over a kilometer and a half per second (It has a kinetic energy of 5.7 megajules). And Modern tank armor is designed to defend against things like this. You're not gonna have luck with medieval siege weapons, nor are you going to have the accuracy to make aimed shots to try to muck up delicate things on the vehicle.


And really. Even if the Imperials managed to get their hands on anti tank guns, they'd still be at a significant disadvantage even on the defense. Simply because cannons and siege weapons are static. A formation of tanks can outmanuever them, or launch thrusts against the spread out guns trying to defend a wide area.
not to mention setting up takes a long time. its not like a 105 or a 155 that can either by simply pushed if it has wheels to its position or dragged by a vehicle. I believe it takes a day and a quarter just ot set up the trebuchet and that isn't saying that the whole freakin' thing can rotate in place. if their magic could remotely strengthen the machine into a magic railgun of some sort, it would be something, UNLESS the elven race or the empire could soup their bows into magic railguns capable of distorting a cloud in a single shot.

but if that were to happen, the projectile probably wont last to reach its intended target, let alone pierce it if it was that fast. unless their medieval counterpart of the 155 is a giant catapult, trebuchet or mangonel like what Longshanks did for fear and lulz, I guess they COULD possibly preset the ranges but at most its gonna be harassing the enemy. i did remember this was usually done by the rebels at convoys by indiscriminately bombarding them with mortars as they moved.
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Old 2012-10-29, 23:43   Link #440
walt
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sabot's.. uraniums... PFF!!
what about ground mobile ISBM like Yars or Topol?
also its can launch sattelites into space
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