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Old 2012-10-27, 19:04   Link #141
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If this is what the fans want, then that just makes it even sillier to say that the franchise needs to move "pass it".
"What fans want" does not always equal quality.

Tough choices and changes sometimes need to be made to allow a story to evolve. However, it's a risk. And the author (and more importantly, the publisher) need to have the courage to take that choice. Fans can be outraged at changes, yet grow to like or even love them later on. The Empire Strikes Back, for example, initially received a lot of very critical reactions. But now there will be few movie viewers who will say it is not the best of the saga.
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Old 2012-10-27, 22:25   Link #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
"What fans want" does not always equal quality.

Tough choices and changes sometimes need to be made to allow a story to evolve.
Scrapping a widely beloved, very well-established, very well-developed, very well-handled, and very touching romance just because a relative few people dislike a couple of the mere side-effects of it does not strike me as a "tough choice" that helps "increase quality" by "allowing a story to evolve".

Quite the contrary, it makes me think of crapola like this.

Sorry, but I don't see any good reason for a Nanoha version of "One More Day". Frankly, the Nanoha franchise would lose an awful lot of its appeal with me if it was to go in such a direction.


Oh, and since you brought up The Empire Strikes Back, I raise you the entire Star Wars Prequels...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Old 2012-10-27, 22:54   Link #143
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Oh, and since you brought up The Empire Strikes Back, I raise you the entire Star Wars Prequels...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I think that line is more fitting for the original Star Wars Trilogy which has been George Lucas’d throughout the DVD & BD releases .

e.g.: Darth Vader (when the emperor was about to kill Luke): NNNNOOOOOOOooooooooouuu...........


The prequels, on the other hand, are just pure waste.
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Old 2012-10-28, 03:59   Link #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Scrapping a widely beloved, very well-established, very well-developed, very well-handled, and very touching romance just because a relative few people dislike a couple of the mere side-effects of it does not strike me as a "tough choice" that helps "increase quality" by "allowing a story to evolve".
I honestly don't see how your romance is very well-handed and well-developed. It never got paste the teasing and suggesting phase, a well-handed romance in recent history is Okarin x Kurisu. I bring up that one because it's not even central to the plot but it succeeded.


Quote:
Quite the contrary, it makes me think of crapola like this.

Sorry, but I don't see any good reason for a Nanoha version of "One More Day". Frankly, the Nanoha franchise would lose an awful lot of its appeal with me if it was to go in such a direction.


Oh, and since you brought up The Empire Strikes Back, I raise you the entire Star Wars Prequels...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
We are NOT even talking about let's make them break up something, we are talking about the story and UNIVERSE itself to MOVE past those two characters. Gundam have been able to move past the rivalry between Amuro and Char. Macross is well past the Hikaru x Misa x Lynn love triangle. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure have become a sprawling shounen epic by moving past Jonathan Joestar and taking the direction of a multigenerational saga. And Muv Luv itself have spawned several side stories that are not even about the cast of the original triology and you don't see fans whining to get back to them. And all those four are alive and well. If Gundam, Macross, JoJo and Muv Luv are able to move past their original casts, why Nanoha can't?
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:11   Link #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This isn't because Nanoha and Fate are "tied". This is because they're extremely popular within the fandom, period. This is no different than how DBZ couldn't "pass on the torch" from Goku to Gohan (which was Toriyama's plan, actually) because Goku was simply more popular than his son.
Yes, sir. That's exactly what it is. The torch wasn't passed because there were no legit takers.

Move on to what exactly?

Teana and Subaru were given their chance to take control of the situation but it doesn't look like they had what it took to be the leads. Nor does Mr. I got plagarized from Index either.

The series is called Nanoha for a reason. And Force did downplay most of the old cast, and NanoFate is hardly relevant there. Force is what you get when you take out magical girl, Nanoha, and Fate. And what do you have left? Well... nothing I have good words for.

Honestly I have no qualms with coming up with brilliant ideas that are new, but it should be a new series and not just Nanoha in name anyways. It would seem like just a perversion of a cash cow if done otherwise, kinda like what Rebuild of Evangelion looks to certain people. :S

Finally, I think we could go back to discussion on the strengths of the individual characters and not afraid Tsuzuki is of getting mobbed by angry shippers.
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:41   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I honestly don't see how your romance is very well-handed and well-developed. It never got paste the teasing and suggesting phase, etc...
I would indeed prefer it if the Nanoha franchise would stop playing coy with NanoFate, but the hints are many. If you're willing to read between the lines, a rather long, well-developed, and passionate relationship becomes abundantly clear.

Their "friendship" is obviously very well-handled. The way they shifted from rivals to "friends" is a truly touching story, imo (in both the original TV anime and in the Nanoha the First Movie).


Part of the reason why I'd like to see the Nanoha franchise stop playing coy about this is precisely because it would make it easier to use Yuuno more. If Nanoha and Fate "came out", and their romance became official, then Yuuno's perceived threat would diminish greatly in the eyes of NanoFate shippers, and you could use him more (which I myself would prefer).

Plus, NanoFate is such a poorly kept secret that it would make Clark Kent blush.


Quote:
a well-handed romance in recent history is Okarin x Kurisu. I bring up that one because it's not even central to the plot but it succeeded.
I agree with you on Okarin X Kurisu.


Quote:
We are NOT even talking about let's make them break up something, we are talking about the story and UNIVERSE itself to MOVE past those two characters.
Well, perhaps I misinterpreted you and Keroko then. What I took from the "move pass" comment is that you both wanted the Nanoha/Fate relationship to essentially be severed. I guess in my mind I equated "move pass" with "move on from", which in the context of a relationship, tends to mean "end it".

If your argument is that the Nanoha franchise should move pass those two characters, in general, then I partially agree and partially disagree.

Since the Nanoha franchise seems to be engaging in massive degrees of world-building, it's probably time for them to have a true spin-off that doesn't rely on its oldest and most established cast members.

OTOH, I don't think that Nanoha and Fate's story necessarily needs to end completely. If nothing else, I think they could still have considerable value as major supporting cast characters in Vivio-centric works like Vivid.


At the end of the day, I'm a Nanoha fan because of its core characters, not because of its fictional universe. I often get the impression I'm in the minority there (at least here on Anime Suki), but so be it, it doesn't change what I personally care about when it comes to this franchise.

With all of that in mind...


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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, sir. That's exactly what it is. The torch wasn't passed because there were no legit takers.

Move on to what exactly?

Teana and Subaru were given their chance to take control of the situation but it doesn't look like they had what it took to be the leads. Nor does Mr. I got plagarized from Index either.
I like Teana and Subaru well enough, but I have to agree that they never struck me as characters strong enough to carry a show. And good point on the Index-inspired character.

That being said, I do consider Teana and Subaru to be pretty good examples of non-sexist Action Girl characters in anime (which Triple_R writes in order to keep this post at least slightly on-topic ).
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Old 2012-10-28, 04:51   Link #147
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Teana is generally well received by fans (other than lol emo arc) because she is the character in the franchise who have shown imperfections and insecurities, and that it doesn't make her less of a character, instead those flaws makes her a more complete character. She gets her ass kicked but still can kick people's ass.
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Old 2012-10-28, 05:12   Link #148
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Teana is now an adult officer. She bloomed when the audience weren't looking.
So I think she missed her chance to be main character material.

I think Japanese fans take a liking to Vivio, but I think she's been in Nanoha's shadow far too long. And it shows.

It's really hard to see her as anything more than Nanoha's daughter.
She's also too privileged.
You can't be your own character like that.

I think Miura is closer to main character material than her.
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Old 2012-10-28, 05:37   Link #149
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I'll be honest, I haven't paid much attention to Nanoha since it went manga-only, but I agree with Triple R in that:

- Nanoha and Fate's relationship is reasonably well-written considering both fandom constraints and cultural constraints
- The relationship needs to be officially resolved "on-screen"

The thing that bothers me the most is that while there's lots of subtext, hints and fanservice moments, the narrative never touches a substantive part of the relationship with a ten-foot pole.

To put it simply, we never see them kiss. Why the hell not? Well, there are many reasons--keeping the shippers shipping (and thus paying) and cultural reasons as well.

For whatever reason, unless the story's plot centers entirely around the relationship, lesbian relationships never seem to get developed realistically or honestly--and even when the plot is centered entirely around said relationship, it's rarely dealt with fairly.

If it's acknowledged forthrightly at all, the relationship is played off as fanservice or background noise. If it's incidental, it never gets more than the barest of substantive subtext and mostly ends up, again, played off as fanservice.

Honestly I can't bring myself to care about the franchise any more. It's gone in directions I don't really care for, but most of all it continues to play coy with Nanoha and Fate, so I don't give a shit anymore.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either kill NanoFate or acknowledge NanoFate. Continuing in this sort of fanservicey limbo is just going to piss people off--especially the fans who are actually lesbians, though I'm sure we're such a small fraction amidst the rabid fanboys that we don't even matter.

It's not just Nanoha, either. It's practically everything.

An incidental lesbian relationship in a story not primarily about said relationship just doesn't get fair treatment, period--which is one of the reasons why I started writing a book.

I'd honestly like to see this kind of character relationship get a fair shake in fiction--especially non-romance fiction. I wrote Alisa's relationship as a foregone conclusion--the story starts after it's already been officially recognized in-universe. I don't really get WHY this isn't done more--the potential for drama, character development and heartwarming (and heartbreaking) moments is incredibly high.

Seems like wasted opportunity to me.
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Old 2012-10-28, 06:18   Link #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I like Teana and Subaru well enough, but I have to agree that they never struck me as characters strong enough to carry a show. And good point on the Index-inspired character.
Some people just weren't made to headline a main event of the series. Take Mikoto Misaka, who's quite badass as an action girl and pulls all the stops. But she's just not a good lead because her conflicts aren't as deep and just doesn't have as much charisma as say, Nanoha or more evidently, Touma from Index

Subaru definitely has charisma, but her potential for internal conflict and storyline of interest wasn't that great. Her twist was more lolwut. Teana's story was better, but she lacks the charisma and ran across some emo roadbumps. Together they might equal one Nanoha. Maybe. Still, they were workable as decent role models for action girls and were better off than poor Erio and Caro. I'm guessing a lot of people would ask me who the hell they are, and that'd just prove my point.

As for those that lament Yuno, I'm sorry to say that I feel that the writers just knew not what to do with him outside of season 1. That was the greater issue, and not any kind of shipping problem would have helped it. As for what I think of his chances?

Spoiler for Shakugan no Shana and Nanoha:



Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either kill NanoFate or acknowledge NanoFate. Continuing in this sort of fanservicey limbo is just going to piss people off--especially the fans who are actually lesbians, though I'm sure we're such a small fraction amidst the rabid fanboys that we don't even matter.
There's certainly what my friend would have termed an "identity crisis". They really do want their cake and have it too. Force would have tried the grimdark path while Vivid would pander to fanservice and shipping. But certainly the abundance of strong action girls in an idealistic series accomplishing the impossible was one of the appeal of the series. But by trying this they ended up losing that by demeaning our previously badass action crew and trying to bring in new ways. It doesn't help that one side demeans the old guard by making them job to the uber villains and the other via tons of fanservice. It's just not cool at all-- it leads to the SFSD disasters that were described in Kaioshin's OP. just write them out or kill them. :S In the end trying to please everyone ends up annoying a lot of people instead.

If they had this kind of wishy washy attitude back in 2004, I guarantee you we wouldn't be talking about it now at all. We'd occasionally list it as a novelty in certain threads, but it certainly would have never gotten the recognition it did.
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Old 2012-10-28, 06:45   Link #151
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The best part about Nanoha has always been that Nanoha's role was pretty much blind to her sex. It would take barely any major adjustments to the writing to put a boy in Nanoha's place.

The part may have been written as a girl, but it wasn't written AROUND a girl. Nanoha's femaleness is never really a big plot point. She was written as a person first and a girl second, which is what makes her interesting as a character, ESPECIALLY in the magical-girl genre, where the main character's femaleness is usually emphasized and paraded around like a trophy. While Nanoha doesn't get all that much meaningful character development (largely due to the lack of any official resolution of Nanoha and Fate's implied relationship), she's a person who happens to be a girl.

She wasn't written around her ovaries.

Edit: In before the fangirls start a genderflip shota yaoi Nanoha fanfic.
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Old 2012-10-28, 06:59   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Scrapping a widely beloved, very well-established, very well-developed, very well-handled, and very touching romance just because a relative few people dislike a couple of the mere side-effects of it does not strike me as a "tough choice" that helps "increase quality" by "allowing a story to evolve".
Did I say scrap the pairing? What I said is that the series is being held back by the constant need to show the pairing', which is easily solve by... you know... just not showing the characters? The pairing still exists, since nothing has changed in that regard, and the story can grow with the new cast.

Or heck, even ignoring the new cast, maybe it could give some more focus on Hayate for a change? You know, the supposed third member of the "three aces" that constantly gets shafted?

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Oh, and since you brought up The Empire Strikes Back, I raise you the entire Star Wars Prequels...

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Yes, hence "risk." Though I quite like Attack of the Clones, crappy romance aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I think that line is more fitting for the original Star Wars Trilogy which has been George Lucas’d throughout the DVD & BD releases .

e.g.: Darth Vader (when the emperor was about to kill Luke): NNNNOOOOOOOooooooooouuu...........
On the flipside of that coin, the additions made in the 1997 re-release were mostly good. "Han shot first" aside, the addition of Jabba in A New Hope gave more urgency to Han's plight as well is introduced a villain that became important in Return of the Jedi and the addition of CGI to Cloud City made the city feel more alive.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, sir. That's exactly what it is. The torch wasn't passed because there were no legit takers.

Move on to what exactly?

Teana and Subaru were given their chance to take control of the situation but it doesn't look like they had what it took to be the leads.
I would say SSX shows otherwise. It's a very entertaining sound stage with none of the pre-StrikerS cast in it.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Some people just weren't made to headline a main event of the series. Take Mikoto Misaka, who's quite badass as an action girl and pulls all the stops. But she's just not a good lead because her conflicts aren't as deep and just doesn't have as much charisma as say, Nanoha or more evidently, Touma from Index
Hold on, hold on, I will readily agree that Touma with his pre-punch speeches has more charisma that most characters I've seen in recent anime, but "I have clone sisters running around getting killed for experiments" isn't deep? Just what are your standards for deep?

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Subaru definitely has charisma, but her potential for internal conflict and storyline of interest wasn't that great. Her twist was more lolwut. Teana's story was better, but she lacks the charisma and ran across some emo roadbumps. Together they might equal one Nanoha. Maybe. Still, they were workable as decent role models for action girls and were better off than poor Erio and Caro. I'm guessing a lot of people would ask me who the hell they are, and that'd just prove my point.
At this point I'll just point out that prior to Vivio, Nanoha never had an internal conflict. Or any character growth. At all. Yet that didn't stop her from being the titular character or a main character for two seasons.

Then again, Nanoha has always been a series more about the characters not named Nanoha. S1 was more Fate's story, A's was more Hayate's story, the first cour of StrikerS more Subaru's story. It's not until the second half or StrikerS that Nanoha finally gets a plot to herself that allows her to actually grow.

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As for those that lament Yuno, I'm sorry to say that I feel that the writers just knew not what to do with him outside of season 1. That was the greater issue, and not any kind of shipping problem would have helped it.
If the writers don't know what to do with a character who specializes in history and known for being a good teacher in a manga that throws around lots of history and has a lot of training then I am beginning to question their skills as writers.
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Old 2012-10-28, 07:03   Link #153
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I kinda felt Biribiri got the short end of the stick because outside of the Sisters arc, she seemed mostly like a tsundere tack-on for the people who are into that sort of shit.

Sisters arc was good though; I would have preferred seeing it resolved more through Mikoto's perspective and less through Deus Ex Machina Hand Guy.
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Old 2012-10-28, 12:22   Link #154
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The best part about Nanoha has always been that Nanoha's role was pretty much blind to her sex. It would take barely any major adjustments to the writing to put a boy in Nanoha's place.

The part may have been written as a girl, but it wasn't written AROUND a girl. Nanoha's femaleness is never really a big plot point. She was written as a person first and a girl second, which is what makes her interesting as a character, ESPECIALLY in the magical-girl genre, where the main character's femaleness is usually emphasized and paraded around like a trophy. While Nanoha doesn't get all that much meaningful character development (largely due to the lack of any official resolution of Nanoha and Fate's implied relationship), she's a person who happens to be a girl.

She wasn't written around her ovaries.
I strongly agree, which is why I consider Nanoha a strong female character.

You know how they sometimes call President Obama the "Post-Racial President"? Well, to draw an analogy, Nanoha is something of a "Post-Gender Heroine".

She's a heroic main protagonist that happens to be a girl. She's completely comfortable in her own skin and she's not ashamed of being a girl (her pretty feminine attire makes this quite clear), but nor do I feel like her femaleness is paraded around as something trying too hard ("I am woman, hear me roar!") or as something that's just meant for male viewers to gawk at.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Did I say scrap the pairing? What I said is that the series is being held back by the constant need to show the pairing', which is easily solve by... you know... just not showing the characters? The pairing still exists, since nothing has changed in that regard, and the story can grow with the new cast.

Or heck, even ignoring the new cast, maybe it could give some more focus on Hayate for a change? You know, the supposed third member of the "three aces" that constantly gets shafted?
I think Hayate faced some fan-backlash from being pushed a wee bit too hard in Nanoha A's and StrikerS. Having her jump ranks over Nanoha and Fate in spite of how Nanoha and Fate were working for TSAB long before Hayate did rubbed some people the wrong way (I myself found this... questionable, at least). This is especially true since Hayate was already given plenty of limelight in how Nanoha A's really was Hayate's story (I agree with you there).

Don't get me wrong, I like Hayate, but if she's getting shafted now it's because she was "over-pushed" (to use pro wrestling terminology) before.


Quote:
At this point I'll just point out that prior to Vivio, Nanoha never had an internal conflict. Or any character growth. At all. Yet that didn't stop her from being the titular character or a main character for two seasons.
I at least partially disagree with you here. On "internal conflict", I recall Nanoha briefly feeling conflicted over continuing to pursue Jewel Seeds due to how that would inevitably throw her into direct conflict with Fate. I do think that Nanoha at least considered "giving up", but admittedly she overcame this doubt quickly enough that I can understand somebody saying that Nanoha lacked "internal conflict" in the first two Nanoha anime shows.

But to argue that she didn't grow as a character is pure poppycock. Sorry, but it is.

Nanoha was certainly never weak, but both Fate (original season) and Vita (Nanoha A's) pushed Nanoha to her limits, and beyond, forcing her to get stronger. They forced Nanoha to get more adept at combat; to be more willing and able to use her powers in creative, corrective, and at times violent ways.

I also think that Nanoha learned from both Fate and Vita that basically good people can get caught up in questionable causes due to sympathetic and unfortunate circumstances beyond their control. While Nanoha never lost her core idealism, she did gain a greater appreciation for the world and some of its greyer shades.

I think that Fate initially perplexed Nanoha, and it was through working out that perplexity in her own mind that Nanoha grew as a person.

So I disagree with you that Nanoha S1 was "not about Nanoha". I think it was just as much about Nanoha as it was about Fate.
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:07   Link #155
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Hold on, hold on, I will readily agree that Touma with his pre-punch speeches has more charisma that most characters I've seen in recent anime, but "I have clone sisters running around getting killed for experiments" isn't deep? Just what are your standards for deep?
Relatively speaking, I would say. But as Syn noted, outside of it she seemed to just be there for her tsundere antics, though this might just be JC staff thing, although I heard they were faithful. Then again, most of my feelings of Mikoto not being able to capture the lead was just from that spinoff they tried.

Quote:
Spoiler:
It's true. For whatever reason, Nanoha doesn't focus on herself in her own series. However, her character gets down to the very core of this thread.

The reason Nanoha's character works, and what gives it the extra punch needed to fill an action girl as well as an action lead is because the plot was pushed through her decision and will. She didn't just react to the plot; she took the initiative. We have someone that approached the issue with enthusiasm, not delving into "Oh, I want to be normal". That's what sets her apart from a number of protagonists.

Still you might scoff. Well, "Bleh, there's tons of protagonists that strive to be the best and be more then they are. Goku, etc." Well, that's why Nanoha starts to work in the success category for action girls. She's not aiming to get stronger or be the best just for the sake of being the best or saving people just because that's something to do. Her goals are far more specific from that. She wants to help people. But helping people is too broad still, and that is why Fate helped make season 1 work, and also later the Wolkies. They made this desire and goal more concrete. Eventually this grows into something else-- she doesn't end up just going around saving people-- she makes a career out of it, and ultimately she teaches other people who want to do it the same thing. As we went along, these goals of her became more clear as she grew up. And that's really something that puts this long running series over quite a few others.

And that, is what I feel, defines a character with their own existence and will beyond just being a main character. It's just like the Kuroyukihime example I used above.

It also passes the theme, that anyone, regardless of gender or age can push themselves. It helps a character to have a recurring theme around them.

Quote:
If the writers don't know what to do with a character who specializes in history and known for being a good teacher in a manga that throws around lots of history and has a lot of training then I am beginning to question their skills as writers.
Lol, I agree wholeheartedly. I do not like his handling at all.

The problem with Yuno is that he just wasn't given any depth to take advantage of those traits he has. You can't define a character merely through aspects; only through in-depth diving can you create a true character. I think we should all be happy that Hayate and co resided in A's and got their development in asap since aside from Yuno, that group seems to be very disliked by the writers. :S Well, at least the first two seasons had a few cool moments. Then...
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Old 2012-10-28, 17:56   Link #156
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Might I just note that this thread has become incredibly narrow over the past few pages? What started with a broad question about sexism and "action girls" has suddenly morphed into a narrow discussion of a few characters and shows. As someone who hasn't seen either these characters or these shows, I've lost pretty much all interest in this thread. I suspect I'm not alone.
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Old 2012-10-28, 18:01   Link #157
TheZodiac
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Uhhh yeah of course, but exactly as she said ^^ "fanservice XD
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Old 2012-10-28, 20:48   Link #158
Vexx
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Originally Posted by TheZodiac View Post
Uhhh yeah of course, but exactly as she said ^^ "fanservice XD
Hint: don't assume anything from the avatar about gender

But yes, seems like the thread should be retitled or the specific series discussion split into a separate thread?
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Old 2012-10-28, 21:12   Link #159
Sheba
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I am sorry for the slight derailing. But I had to speak against some conception about how lesbiasnism is somehow why Japan did their strong female characters right. In pen & paper RPG analogy, sexual orientation should be a perk not the defining stat of the action girl.
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Old 2012-10-28, 21:22   Link #160
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I just feel Nanoha is/was home to a LOT of valid action involving female characters but yea, I suppose I could talk about something else.

An interesting case is Golden Darkness from To Love Ru. Initially, she quite literally was an SFSD. To Love Ru's just a series that, well, hasn't been the most progressive of attitudes towards its female characters, and that's kinda natural given the genre.

The Darkness spinoff seems to have reversed the trend though, and suddenly Yami who has generally had a flat and generally unpleasant personality but was very slowly evolving across the end of the series was suddenly greeted with a backstory that wasn't just pointless filler but giving actual motivation.

Her transformation from mere sex symbol/low budget version of Eve or Fate to a legitimate character seems to have been inspired by her popularity, but for once this was put to really good use. And it came somewhat naturally. It's actually worked quite well for some reason and Darkness has just been a better story, for the shock of a lot of people.
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