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Old 2012-10-28, 09:51   Link #101
james0246
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Originally Posted by Phoenix321 View Post
There's still the possibility, that Endo-Madara will flashback to the time when he killed off the Uzumaki Clan, genjutsu forward it to Naruto just as when Naruto is about to be defeated, and AT THAT MOMEMNT, Sasuke will know that he and Naruto are the same and must defeat Endo-Madara.
That's too many flashbacks. More likely Madara will just mention his various connections to the various unexplained events that Obito opted out on explaining.
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Old 2012-10-28, 10:10   Link #102
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Yes, I am making this analogy on purpose. The point is there's little reason to doubt his claim. Didn't the readers believe him as well until the real Madara showed up?
There was actually a great many reasons to doubt it, first and foremost the masked part, and so it was until the author drowned us under tons of reason to accept it weeks after weeks for years. Facts that in insight make little to no sense.
And even with all those facts backing this notion there was something fishy about it (hence the large amount of theories that had him as someone else, anyone else) until his true identity became painfully obvious -although if memory serve you were among those quite adamant he couldn't possibly be Obito even when no other answer made sense.

Long story short, the readers didn't believe him outright (in fact the most popular first guess was Obito until it stopped making sense), had to be worked over quite hard to buy it and even then invented complicated stories to try to make sense of it all because the mere " Tobi is Madara" made none.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
And i think that there's nothing wrong having a plot hole like this, because Kishimoto most likely chose the emotional impact over a more rational choice. [...] But Obito is directly connected to Kakashi and to many others of his generation, and to Naruto's father, etc. and most importantly the reader already cares about him since the Kakashi gaiden was a part of the story that most readers loved.
Personally I feel no emotional impact about it save a mild annoyance and Obito is only really connected to Kakashi. As far as the rest of the characters are concerned it's who's this guy and what's his problem?
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Old 2012-10-28, 12:45   Link #103
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As much as I laugh those stats, the 3rd Databook has Obito's intelligence stat as a mere 1.
It does explain so very much.
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
A guy who is definitely not smart managed to fool both Nagato and Itachi and the whole akatsuki and all the kages and Sasuke and even the readers. I'd rather call that simply a plot hole instead of trying to find overly convoluted explanations, and then happily forget about it and have fun reading the epic battles in the next chapters
yes obito was dumb. but obito as madara/tobi is not. you guys are forgetting that he had an intelligence boost from zetsu to explain why he was no longer stupid. that's not to say that tobi is brilliant, but he is clearly much smarter than original obito was and he became a master manipulator in his own right
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:24   Link #104
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yes obito was dumb. but obito as madara/tobi is not. you guys are forgetting that he had an intelligence boost from zetsu to explain why he was no longer stupid. that's not to say that tobi is brilliant, but he is clearly much smarter than original obito was and he became a master manipulator in his own right
Where was it said that the Zetsu body improved Obito's intelligence? I know it improved his bodies abilities for a time (giving him increased strength and Mokuton), but I do not recall it mentioning intelligence.

As it is, Obito know longer uses the Zetsu body (he stopped around the time of the Minato fight), so even if it did improve his intelligence for a time it is no longer working with his body so his intelligence should be back to it's original levels.
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:42   Link #105
itachi-san314
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Where was it said that the Zetsu body improved Obito's intelligence? I know it improved his bodies abilities for a time (giving him increased strength and Mokuton), but I do not recall it mentioning intelligence.
in the beginning of ch603 the zetsus say they're better than obito in every way and mention intelligence and wisdom depending on the translation.

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As it is, Obito know longer uses the Zetsu body (he stopped around the time of the Minato fight), so even if it did improve his intelligence for a time it is no longer working with his body so his intelligence should be back to it's original levels.
but his intelligence isn't back to it's original level. we don't know what happened between obito wearing zetsu and not exactly but it is clear that obito's intelligence didn't wain. and it is also clear that spiral zetsu is no longer around. i am assuming that they merged into one body (tobi) but i shouldn't talk like it's fact yet so you're right about that

also, just to clarify, i'm saying obito is smarter after this apparent merging with zetsu, not while he's wearing spiral zetsu. while wearing zetsu he is talking and learning from zetsu like another person. as tobi they are combined into some weird being i think
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:47   Link #106
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
in the beginning of ch603 the zetsus say they're better than obito in every way and mention intelligence and wisdom depending on the translation.
That's Zetsu. Sorry, but I don't think any of Zetsu's intelligence has affected Obito (at least not directly), and no I do not view the work with "spiral zetsu" as being a full immersion/combination.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but his intelligence isn't back to it's original level. we don't know what happened between obito wearing zetsu and not exactly since it is clear that obito's intelligence didn't wain. and it is also clear that spiral zetsu is no longer around. i am assuming that they merged into one body (tobi) but i shouldn't talk like it's fact yet so you're right about that
What's this "original levels" talk? Obito may not be very intelligent (before or after his accident), but that doesn't mean he cannot speak and act with conviction. Additionally, it is not like he needs any actual intelligence considering that Madara already concocted the entire plan. All Obito needs to do is be an emo and push through a plan someone else already created. It doesn't take a genius to follow instructions, especially when the instructions can talk to you (via B.Zetsu).
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Old 2012-10-28, 13:58   Link #107
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Personally I feel no emotional impact about it save a mild annoyance and Obito is only really connected to Kakashi. As far as the rest of the characters are concerned it's who's this guy and what's his problem?
Unfortunately i felt much the same. But while i was complaining about it i realized how many people on this forum supported the idea, and it seems they are more often the younger ones, those closer in age to the default audience of the manga.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
yes obito was dumb. but obito as madara/tobi is not. you guys are forgetting that he had an intelligence boost from zetsu to explain why he was no longer stupid. that's not to say that tobi is brilliant, but he is clearly much smarter than original obito was and he became a master manipulator in his own right
I was trying to make sense of Tobi's actions by explaining it with having Obito's mind merged with Madara's will and such things. But the recent chapters made it clear that Obito is just Obito and nobody else, not even Zetsu. Also explaining an intelligence boost with Zetsu is not working: we are talking about some android mind that keeps asking a child how does it feel to take a dump. Of course Obito became smarter by growing up, especially because of the way he had to grow up he had to improve a lot in the field of deception. But it's simply not believeable that he changed so much.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-10-28 at 14:11.
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Old 2012-10-28, 14:35   Link #108
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
That's Zetsu. Sorry, but I don't think any of Zetsu's intelligence has affected Obito (at least not directly), and no I do not view the work with "spiral zetsu" as being a full immersion/combination.
neither do i. as i tried to explain, i think the two characters merged prior to obito's fight with minato

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What's this "original levels" talk?
i was quoting you...

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Obito may not be very intelligent (before or after his accident), but that doesn't mean he cannot speak and act with conviction. Additionally, it is not like he needs any actual intelligence considering that Madara already concocted the entire plan. All Obito needs to do is be an emo and push through a plan someone else already created. It doesn't take a genius to follow instructions, especially when the instructions can talk to you (via B.Zetsu).
obito wasn't smart enough to do what tobi has done imho. i think a merging of him with zetsu would explain the change. he does speak in 2 different voices and one of them is silly just like spiral zetsu was after all. i would put money on spiral zetsu having the same voice as silly tobi in the tv series

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I was trying to make sense of Tobi's actions by explaining it with having Obito's mind merged with Madara's will and such things. But the recent chapters made it clear that Obito is just Obito and nobody else, not even Zetsu.
i disagree. just look at his appearance. when obito speaks with young nagato and yahiko he is clearly wearing the spiral zetsu suit. when he invades konoha a few pages later he looks like normal tobi with the black suit and no zetsu armor. something changed between those 2 versions of obito we just haven't been told exactly what it was. my theory is that he merged with spiral zetsu to make himself more powerful and smarter
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Old 2012-10-28, 15:01   Link #109
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
neither do i. as i tried to explain, i think the two characters merged prior to obito's fight with minato
And I don't, and I am unsure why you do. We literally just had an entire flashback about Obito and what led up to the Kyuubi attack. So, why would Kishimoto deliberately hide or not disclose the moment spiral zetsu and Obito became one? Additionally, since we do see Obito with a different mask, I am unsure why chose that moment to believe they became one, why not later when he switches back to a spiral mask?

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i was quoting you...
LOL, You're right . Admittedly, it was based off of your idea that Obito was somehow smarter with the "spiral zetsu" (which in turn would mean that there is some baseline intelligence that was enhanced).

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obito wasn't smart enough to do what tobi has done imho. i think a merging of him with zetsu would explain the change.
What has Tobi been shown to do that counts as "smart"? The only thing I could think of is the manipulation of Sasuke, but even that doesn't require much intelligence (he was simply telling a well concocted lie that he could have been working on for years). Everything else that Tobi/Obito has done has all been part of Madara's plans (even if Obito screwed up the order and the details).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
he does speak in 2 different voices and one of them is silly just like spiral zetsu was after all.
So what? Tobi acting like a fool could simply be acting. Why does it need to be more complicated?

Madara had the plan, Obito followed it. End of story.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i disagree. just look at his appearance. when obito speaks with young nagato and yahiko he is clearly wearing the spiral zetsu suit. when he invades konoha a few pages later he looks like normal tobi with the black suit and no zetsu armor. something changed between those 2 versions of obito we just haven't been told exactly what it was. my theory is that he merged with spiral zetsu to make himself more powerful and smarter
Or, Obito's body was finally strong enough that he could act independent of the spiral suit. Before he left the cave Zetsu told young Obito that his body wasn't yet strong enough to do much of anything. That indicates, to me, that one day Obio's body would be strong enough. Consequently, his big debut in Konoha could have been the first moment that Obito acted independent of the suit (this would also explain why he lost so easily).
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Old 2012-10-28, 15:43   Link #110
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There was actually a great many reasons to doubt it, first and foremost the masked part, and so it was until the author drowned us under tons of reason to accept it weeks after weeks for years. Facts that in insight make little to no sense.
And even with all those facts backing this notion there was something fishy about it (hence the large amount of theories that had him as someone else, anyone else) until his true identity became painfully obvious -although if memory serve you were among those quite adamant he couldn't possibly be Obito even when no other answer made sense.
I'm not sure what that last bit had to do with anything.

At the time when Tobi was "revealed" to be Madara, I distinctly remember everyone immediately believing it.
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Old 2012-10-28, 16:37   Link #111
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What has Tobi been shown to do that counts as "smart"? The only thing I could think of is the manipulation of Sasuke, but even that doesn't require much intelligence (he was simply telling a well concocted lie that he could have been working on for years). Everything else that Tobi/Obito has done has all been part of Madara's plans (even if Obito screwed up the order and the details).
There are some parts of the story where Tobi acts in a quite intelligent way. For example he learned everything about Itachi, that in itself didn't require intelligence since he had Zetsu to spy on his targets, but he did know in advance that Itachi wants to die in a battle against Sasuke. He completely fooled Itachi, if nothing else for that one thing he had to be intelligent. In Obito's case the plot simply doesn't work, sometimes he is dumb and sometimes he is smart.


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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
my theory is that he merged with spiral zetsu to make himself more powerful and smarter
If there's any room for a theory where Tobi is not simply Obito grown up then i would definitely go with Madara's will/personality/knowledge being added to Obito's mind, instead of the rather average mind of the different Zetsus (white,spiral,whatever). We know that Madara left his will in those black rods and black Zetsu, so there's a chance that Obito used those on himself to enhance his abilties.

I think that the only thing that gives a chance for these theories is if Kishimoto wants the young Obito to come back and turn against Madara. For that it would be a good plot device that Tobito somehow breaks off some part of his body that contains Madara's will embedded into those Zetsu-Hashirama-cells and then magically turns into a guy who is very very sorry for what he did until now and sacrifices himself to save Kakashi, happy end and stuff.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2012-10-28 at 16:49.
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Old 2012-10-28, 17:59   Link #112
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At the time when Tobi was "revealed" to be Madara, I distinctly remember everyone immediately believing it.
You distinctly remember that wrong then. In fact a large amount of people thought he wasn't even claiming to be Madara at first because of a mistranslation that made Tobi look like he was talking about Madara's power at the 3rd person. It wasn't before the aftermath of Itachi and Sasuke's fight that most people started to accept it and even then it was within limits (ie a Madara clone, Mara's mind in someone else body, etc.) with a large minority who never believed it and always thought he was someone else with dozens of different theories.
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Old 2012-10-28, 18:12   Link #113
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And I don't, and I am unsure why you do. We literally just had an entire flashback about Obito and what led up to the Kyuubi attack. So, why would Kishimoto deliberately hide or not disclose the moment spiral zetsu and Obito became one?
there's no way to know that yet since it might tie into another flashback development we have yet to see, but what we do know is that we never saw spiral zetsu before this flashback. kishi will have to tell us what happened to him sooner or later and that would be the ideal time to see if they merge or not

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Additionally, since we do see Obito with a different mask, I am unsure why chose that moment to believe they became one, why not later when he switches back to a spiral mask?
i only said it was between us seeing him with the zetsu armor and the minato fight. there's no way to guess when it would have been exactly. the pattern of the mask is weird, but it may also just be one of those things like his hair being randomly long and short in flashbacks

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What has Tobi been shown to do that counts as "smart"? The only thing I could think of is the manipulation of Sasuke, but even that doesn't require much intelligence (he was simply telling a well concocted lie that he could have been working on for years).
i'm not saying he's brilliant, just a lot smarter than obito was which was pretty dumb. like Ero-Senn1n pointed out, the inclusion of itachi into his plans was not simple. and even though madara concocted the whole plan and provided black zetsu, i still feel like obito would have bungled it all if he wasn't smarter.

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So what? Tobi acting like a fool could simply be acting. Why does it need to be more complicated?
it doesn't necessarily, but why would obito act that way if he didn't care about anything? it doesn't make sense to joke around if he's a nihilist like he claims to be. he would have just always acted cold and calculating like he did against minato. the other silly side of his personilty has got to be indicitive of something along the lines of this spiral zetsu theory

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
If there's any room for a theory where Tobi is not simply Obito grown up then i would definitely go with Madara's will/personality/knowledge being added to Obito's mind, instead of the rather average mind of the different Zetsus (white,spiral,whatever). We know that Madara left his will in those black rods and black Zetsu, so there's a chance that Obito used those on himself to enhance his abilties
thats what i always wanted to be the case, but having now met spiral zetsu, i'm trying to predict where kishi is going with that character
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Old 2012-10-28, 18:17   Link #114
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i'm not saying he's brilliant, just a lot smarter than obito was which was pretty dumb. like Ero-Senn1n pointed out, the inclusion of itachi into his plans was not simple. and even though madara concocted the whole plan and provided black zetsu, i still feel like obito would have bungled it all if he wasn't smarter.
I just don't think Obito is "smarter". Rather, I see him as more focused and determined. (Even Naruto, when pushed to the edge, can be scarily focused on one goal (I'm reminded of the way he looked when he first confronted Nagato).) It can be quite intense, and intensity can make up for overall intelligence.

That being said, I pointed out last week several instances where I felt Obito already "bungled" the plan (the Kyuubi's inefficient release, and the Uchiha massacre (specifically, the harvesting of eyes)), so it's not like Obito has necessarily been a complete straight shooter since his "death".
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Old 2012-10-28, 19:59   Link #115
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That being said, I pointed out last week several instances where I felt Obito already "bungled" the plan (the Kyuubi's inefficient release, and the Uchiha massacre (specifically, the harvesting of eyes)), so it's not like Obito has necessarily been a complete straight shooter since his "death".
i dont consider those bungles at all. he lost to minato who was one of the best ninja of all time. minato broke his hold over the kyuubi and slightly edged him out during their fight. there's a difference between bungling and just plain losing to a better opponent. a bungle would be more like hidan losing to shikamaru who he could have easily beat if he wasn't an overconfident jackass

as far as the uchiha massacre, i think you're eluding to your idea of tobi keeping the uchiha as eye producing slaves. that doesn't really seem necessary when he was able to gather literally hundreds of eyes for his enormous wall collection. how many does he really need? he didn't even come close to using all of the ones he does have and keeping a race of slaves poses certain risks and issues that don't seem necessary to take
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Old 2012-10-28, 21:24   Link #116
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^I'm not talking about Obito losing, I'm talking about him fighting at all. Whether he could win the battle or not does not matter. His mission was the Kyuubi, not Konoha's destructuon, and he failed the mission magnificently (seemingly due to his emotions or simple incompetence).

As for his wall of eyes...considering the power of the eyes, why should he waste any? Especially if he wants to be able to use Izanagi or Izanami whenever he requires. Additionally, if the MS are trully unique, then it only makes sense to try and accquire as much power as possible.
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Old 2012-10-28, 22:16   Link #117
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^I'm not talking about Obito losing, I'm talking about him fighting at all. Whether he could win the battle or not does not matter. His mission was the Kyuubi, not Konoha's destructuon, and he failed the mission magnificently (seemingly due to his emotions or simple incompetence).
that's assuming minato and konoha wouldn't retaliate for kushina's death and losing the kyuubi, which they most certainly would. i think tobi was smart to try to take out minato then and there without giving him time to concoct a strategy and prepare for tobi's skills. it was also smart to unleash the kyuubi as a distraction during their fight and to thin konoha's numbers. the smartest way to try to fight an elite ninja like minato is by surprise and distraction. obito was prepared for minato, but minato had no idea what was going on or what obito could do and he still won. a prepared minato would logically do much better

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As for his wall of eyes...considering the power of the eyes, why should he waste any? Especially if he wants to be able to use Izanagi or Izanami whenever he requires. Additionally, if the MS are trully unique, then it only makes sense to try and accquire as much power as possible.
i dont think he wasted any, but there comes a time when he has so many that why even bother coming up with a grand scheme to acquire more? if he had to use izanagi 100s of times then he would be having more problems than just a shortage of eyes. it would probably mean that he wasn't strong enough to carry out the plan and no matter how many eyes he had it wouldn't matter
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Old 2012-10-28, 22:47   Link #118
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that's assuming minato and konoha wouldn't retaliate for kushina's death and losing the kyuubi, which they most certainly would
Of course they would try and retaliate, but since Obito can literally fade into nothingness (the only reason Minato even knew Obito was there was because Obito wanted him to) he could have escaped with no one the wiser. And this would have been perfect since Konoha would begin the search for Kushina, and their first target would be Kumo - the next strongest nation and the natioin that kidnapped Kushina in the past. Imagine how great a war between Kumo and Konoha would have been for Madara's plan. In fact, with the possible mutual destruction, the Kyuubi, Hachibi and Nibi would have all been in Obito's hand. And this could have all been achieved by not fighting Minato let alone anyone of importance.

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i dont think he wasted any, but there comes a time when he has so many that why even bother coming up with a grand scheme to acquire more? if he had to use izanagi 100s of times then he would be having more problems than just a shortage of eyes. it would probably mean that he wasn't strong enough to carry out the plan and no matter how many eyes he had it wouldn't matter
I agree with your logic, but extra ammo is always helpful and there is no reason to waste resources. Hell, if he had enough Sharingan, Obito could have implanted them in the Zetsus and the army would have been exponentially more powerful (imagine an army of zetsus able to use Izanagi or MS jutsus, if even a few of them had Amaterasu, then 1000s could have been killed by just those few).

Edit: to speculate, it is possible that Obito killed the clan in order to prevent an MS from breaking the eternal Tsukuyomi (since only an MS can break a Tsukuyomi...well an MS and Sasuke's eyes)

Last edited by james0246; 2012-10-29 at 00:20.
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Old 2012-10-28, 23:09   Link #119
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^i really like your idea of framing another village for the kyuubi's theft and pitting them up against each other. interestingly enough, obito's plan seems to be to get all the villages to work together though. given the amount of retcons with flashbacks like the obito minato fight, certain things just have to jive with what already happened too, which isn't the character obito's fault, it's more on kishi if that even makes sense lol
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Old 2012-10-29, 10:52   Link #120
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As a reminder to everyone, there will be no Naruto spoilers this week. I repeat, there is no Naruto this week.
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