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Old 2012-10-28, 17:32   Link #31021
Kiltias
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I'm awaiting an answer from Wanderer which is regards to the whole "Yasu" thing as I do admit eventhough I'm probably the only one, I do think Jessica is deeply involved.

Was actually my main suspect of being Beatrice until Yasu came in.

Quote:
Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi.
Granted, I can actually see Genji using Yasu to make the gold his own.
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Old 2012-10-28, 18:02   Link #31022
UsagiTenpura
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Personally for me the reason why I don't like ShKanon is that unless everyone minus Battler is aware of Shannon and Kanon being the same person, nobody noticed it and Yasu was capable to fool everyone for 2/3 years.
Not mentioning that, unless she was already planning the murder game 2/3 years earlier than it happened, the motive for her to lead a double life is weak.

Mind you, I accept it as the solution because that's clearly what it's meant to be but... each time I think at Yasu putting it into practice I've weird flash of Yasu switching clothes in a Clark Kent's style so that she can 'confortably' switch between the two, Natsuhi who suddently stop being the control freak and completely miss the fact that she's paying the same person twice, Kanon or Shannon either skipping work or having to work twice the normal amount Jessica being so blind she doesn't realize her love interest shares the same face as her best friend (let's assume George is really that blind as he wear glasses... or that he never paid Kanon a second glance) and so on.

Just to name a few.

All things that can be possible but that, as far as I'm involved, are hard to swallow when placed together.
I just guess at a core level the question I'm asking is if it was hard to accept that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, not if it's hard to swallow that they managed to fool everyone over it, which is far from certain anyway. Guess you could say fool Battler and us at least.

The question of fooling others is really a separate thing, because it spawns a debate on fooling who. I think it makes more sense, if we accept Shkanon, to think about who'd need to be "in" in order for it to work, as well as why did it begin in the first place.
I personally think it'd be easy to fool everyone when Kinzo was alive since they were his personal servants. After that, I think Natsuhi and Krauss has no reasons to be fooled since they're in along with Yasu and the servants about the death of Kinzo.
Jessica to me has shown hints of knowing that about it as well. Basically it would be people not on Rokkenjima fooled. I even think there's a good chance her asking Shannon to dress like a boy to pretend being her boyfriend at school might be the origin of Kanon.

Think that in most of Umineko, people are rarely visually fooled - that usually indicates someone lying not someone fooled.
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Old 2012-10-28, 19:54   Link #31023
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I just guess at a core level the question I'm asking is if it was hard to accept that Shannon and Kanon are the same person, not if it's hard to swallow that they managed to fool everyone over it, which is far from certain anyway. Guess you could say fool Battler and us at least.
Well, for me those two are two connected problems. If they couldn't fool everyone/nearly everyone either they were all accomplices against Battler (and it would still be strange how Battler didn't realize it was strange Shannon and Kanon had the same face despite Shannon coming out and saying they weren't really related) or ShKanon couldn't work.

I've built a theory that gave Yasu a limited number of accomplices in order to make ShKanon work but I can't say Umineko offers us a theory about it.

As far as Umineko tells us Kanon showed up a year before Yasu solved the epitaph and his existence as his own being is never questioned so any solution to the how is in a catbox.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I personally think it'd be easy to fool everyone when Kinzo was alive since they were his personal servants.
Unless you're implying Kinzo's complicity in covering up all the oddities like Kanon not really coming to Rokkenjima among the other kids or Shannon and Kanon's working schedule which must not much with each other and with the hours Shannon spends at school.
Note that the working schedule is under everyone's eyes in the servant room and that Natsuhi is described as the sort of person that control the servants so it's not like they can handle on their own as they please.
Kinzo's complicity might assure Genji's complicity but then, why should Kinzo be an accomplice in this for a full year as he doesn't know yet Yasu is Beato?
And would Yasu dare to ask him complicity in this when Yasu has no idea Kinzo is his father/grandfather?

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
After that, I think Natsuhi and Krauss has no reasons to be fooled since they're in along with Yasu and the servants about the death of Kinzo.
Still you've to give them a reason to accept Kanon, or, in simpler terms, to accept to pay Yasu as if he were two people.
As I said, I've built my theory about why they would do this but I'm curious about yours, if you've one.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Jessica to me has shown hints of knowing that about it as well. Basically it would be people not on Rokkenjima fooled. I even think there's a good chance her asking Shannon to dress like a boy to pretend being her boyfriend at school might be the origin of Kanon.
I've considered this. The problem is that Jessica is also the person that pushed George and Shannon together and that's very supportive of them and that, at the same time, is in love with Kanon, would like for him to be his boyfriend and is trying to... well, have her feelings reach him.

So, either she isn't really supportive of George and Shannon or she's not in love with him or she has given up on him or she's trying to organize a threesome without Yasu knowing as Yasu seems to stick on the idea she must have only 1 loved one and either leave with George or remain on Rokkenjima with Jessica.

In short if Jessica is aware that Shannon=Kanon this can solve some problems about her being fooled (she calls Shannon her best friend and is in love with Kanon and doesn't notice a thing about the two of them being the same person?) but then it would destroy part of her characterization.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Think that in most of Umineko, people are rarely visually fooled - that usually indicates someone lying not someone fooled.
Yes but this generates the problem that everybody would be lying as everybody seems to know Shannon and Kanon by more than 1 year (minus Battler) and believe they're two separate beings. Even Battler saw Shannon and Kanon and didn't realize the resemblance. Sure, it can be he fail at memorizing faces but it's still odd.

Though I think that's the sort of problem Ryukishi didn't worry about, like the rain not soaking people, it's still a thing that pushes me not to apprecciate the ShKanon solution.

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
This, the whole episode 5 (except for the obvious line from Natsuhi "I only told Shannon that I like fall") with Shannon and Kanon being different persons for the detective AND Battler,
Will's sudden red "It's not allowed for a servant to be the culprit"
and the co-existence of Shannon and Kanon TOGETHER with Lion in ep7 despite Shannon's bluescreen still makes me wonder if we should accept ShaKanonTrice as the culprit.
Well, she's definitely the culprit on the gameboards otherwise part of the story would lose sense.

Also technically Shannon/Kanon and Lion didn't exist in the same universe. Shannon and Kanon says they don't know him.
Basically Bern as pieced together two universes, the one in which ShKanon existed and the one in which Lion existed, in fact Maria and Jessica, when answering Will about their experiences with Beato talked of a world where Lion didn't exist, and Lion is unaware of Beato's existence as the witch of Rokkenjima.

Interesting enough Shannon and Kanon are the only ones who don't know Lion, while the others, although talking of a world were Lion doesn't exist when answering to Will, knows Lion. This is likely because the jessica of Lion's world and the Jessica of ShKanon's world were... turned into a single being with the knowledge of both Jessica... while the same wasn't possible for ShKanon as they didn't exist in Lion's universe.

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Regarding Natsuhi indirectly telling us that Shannon is one of the culprits in ep5, it is somehow TOO obvious.
In this part I have to agree with KNM with the probability of 4 tarrot-cards in different locations, since it feels so similar to the case from ep7 where Yasu switched Belphagore's key out "with magic". Remeber that scene?)
Well, the solution with 4 tarrot cards is equally obvious. If we've to go for the less obvious solution for me is a no win situation. They're both too easy.

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Originally Posted by Wegenbarth View Post
Shannon also said in her bluescreen ("The one who orders us"), which can mean either Yasu, the troll-author or Kinzo/Genji/Natsuhi.
Well, I guess that's because that Shannon is pieceShannon and the one controlling her is authorYasu. The scene to me sort of felt like when in a videogame you're about to go for a BadEnding. I've the feeling if Will had insisted Shannon would have switched to Kanon and would have killed/tried to kill Will.

Though I personally like the idea of Gamemaster Genji who's trying to use Yasu to get Kinzo's gold... but Umineko always described Genji as loyal to his master/masters so this would mean throwing his characterization out of the window...
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Old 2012-10-28, 22:05   Link #31024
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Was just wondering, after some thought.
Back in arc 2's intro, Shkanontrice actually seemed so obvious at first. At that point, I did think all three were one being, and I'm sure many others thought something similar. But then came later on in the same arc the red truth. I believed the red truth, and thus discarded what I thought of the intro of arc 2. But in the long run that made me wonder, if ultimately Shkanon was really something hard to accept, or if it wasn't the "betrayal" of the red that made it that way (even tho we've been told over and over that red was a weapon used by the witch against us)?
Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.

Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986.

And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems.

... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience.
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Old 2012-10-29, 03:29   Link #31025
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I always kind of feel like people are missing the point when they discuss how plausible it would be for Yasu to actually act out the lives of two different people. I mean, the gameboards aren't real. They're just message bottle stories. It seems pretty clear to me that she never did something like that in real life; she's deliberately emphasising the differences between the three people that she would like to become, and thus presenting them as three different characters in the fantasy narrative. There's no reason to believe she ever did anything like this in the real world.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:01   Link #31026
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Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but...
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:10   Link #31027
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Was Jessica really as interested in Yasu as she seems to be in the gameboards, though? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Since Kanon is mostly portrayed as never actually pursuing his chance at love, I think it's probably more like Yasu felt something for Jessica and had suspicions that she might have felt something back, but that they never actually talked about it and it never really went anywhere.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:18   Link #31028
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If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:24   Link #31029
Kiltias
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Except that it seems extremely important that she had these three romances and no one seemed to understand there was a conflict. If George and Jessica knew they were pining for the same person, you think it'd come up. It does for George and Battler, but...
Perhaps thats what actually went down in EP 4 where Jessica and George "killed" each other?

As in it wasn't:
Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap but simply Jessica vs George.

And perhaps Jessica knew about Yasu.
Didn't she went along with Nanjo to "treat" Kanon in EP1?

Regarding EP 2?
I always saw the scene with Jessica,Kanon and Beatrice that it was Kanon trying to fight his inner demons as Beatrice tried to kill Jessica that being the moment she found out.

EP 3:
Nanjo being killed by Yasu/Kanon to save Jessica.Didn't Kanon's "Spirit" appear to her blind self?

EP 4:
Well I can't say how she knew but somehow I see some sense that Jessica and George both knew about Shkanon and their fight was to declare the victor of love.
Both died that being the reason Shannon and Kanon died the very next.
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Old 2012-10-29, 04:44   Link #31030
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The second twilight in EP4, atleast at the time it's claimed to occur, was obviously faked, judging by the phone call Jessica made. That, plus their distance apart, proves they did not kill each other, since corpses never move after death in Umineko.
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Old 2012-10-29, 06:16   Link #31031
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If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
Is it OK to doubt the relationship in Prime, yet believe it on the gameboard?

I mean, calling it 'a cruel trap' to doubt them seems like telling us the relationships are real.

One thing that always struck me is the differences regarding the romances between Legacy and Turn. In Legacy Shannon hesitates to accept George's ring, but in Turn she takes it so fast George is surprised. And in Legacy there's nothing between Kanon and Jessica, yet in Turn it suggests they're starting to develop feelings for each other. The bonds of each respective relationship seem to generally strengthen in every subsequent story, End notwithstanding.

Basically, the relationships seem like an embellishment, built on a metafictional history. Certainly there was something there in Prime to begin with, but I think a lot of their stronger feelings are exaggerated. Especially when it comes to Jessica and George, since we only get to see Yasu's take on them. Jessica most of all, since at least in George's case we have some more solid history between him and Shannon; for Jessica all we have is the school festival.

Last edited by Wanderer; 2012-10-29 at 22:18.
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Old 2012-10-29, 09:53   Link #31032
Kiltias
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The second twilight in EP4, atleast at the time it's claimed to occur, was obviously faked, judging by the phone call Jessica made. That, plus their distance apart, proves they did not kill each other, since corpses never move after death in Umineko.
Hence the quotation marks.
Jessica didn't die in the confrontation but George did and herself having died at a later point perhaps due to injuries.
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Old 2012-10-29, 10:05   Link #31033
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If that was the case, the relationship would've been portrayed the other way around. It's very important and very CONSISTENT that Jessica is always proactive in pursuing the relationship.

Ryukishi, for all his faults, portrays things the way he does for a reason. He even stated in an interview not to doubt the relationships he portrays, considering it 'a cruel trap'. Jessica loves Kanon. We are not to doubt this. Whether Jessica knows Kanon is Yasu, whether or not they ever dated, and other details like that are debatable, but not this.
Well, you know, maybe Jessica was more into Yasu than Yasu was ever into Jessica. Kanon's initial attitude toward furniture love is pretty harsh in Legend and Turn, and he goes to her festival less out of love and more out of obligation or, dare I say it, friendship.

There's also what Wanderer points out about the meta-evolution of the romances. In Turn the romance is just barely starting. In Dawn Jessica's really into him. Those are the same two days. There must be some degree of embellishment or uncertainty one direction or the other. Such evolution of the relationship is impossible except as a meta-construct unless that's the case.

Could it not also be that he means to say the relationships should not be doubted in the context of the stories, wherein Shannon and Kanon have independent existences as characters despite a dependent body? Certainly, I don't think anyone doubts that. Well I guess I kind of do, but only because the Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice dynamic doesn't make any logistical sense. Setting aside that belief, I have no trouble accepting that Shannon-the-character and George-the-character genuinely have a loving relationship. I don't know if it's true in Prime, but we don't know if anything was true about Prime.
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Old 2012-10-29, 13:18   Link #31034
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i don't think I'm missing any point at all by questioning the plausibility of leading a double life. I understand the gameboards need not reflect reality entirely, but, I mean ... there is clearly some intent to at least stay within the bounds of what reality was kinda sorta like. It's basically a huge plot hole, and lazy writing.
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Old 2012-10-29, 13:28   Link #31035
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Well, you know, maybe Jessica was more into Yasu than Yasu was ever into Jessica. Kanon's initial attitude toward furniture love is pretty harsh in Legend and Turn, and he goes to her festival less out of love and more out of obligation or, dare I say it, friendship.
This is a pretty interesting way to look at it. Although, I think Yasu must have returned her feelings to SOME extent, or else Kanon wouldn't have been treated as having any chance at winning the duel from the beginning.

Maybe it was something like that Jessica did express her feelings to Yasu at some point, but she declined because of her existing relationship with George, and then felt conflicted afterwards because she did in fact return her feelings to some extent? Or maybe Jessica never actually confessed or anything, but Yasu was able to deduce it from how she acted around her.

It's all a cat box, in the end. To me, the only thing that's certain is that it would be nonsense to suggest that Yasu lived as two different people for several years in anything resembling normal reality, so I have to conclude that we are not supposed to assume that such a thing happened outside of the gameboards.
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Old 2012-10-29, 14:17   Link #31036
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Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.
I guess that's sorta it tho, yeah it didn't seem to make much sense, but really what did we know after reading arc 1 + arc 2's intro, at that very point?
I'm not sure how too put it, but crazy stuff can get explanations later on, like many did in Higurashi (tho the sense they made is actually debatable I guess).

Going further into that debate tho. What's so crazy about Shkanon, in the light of everything else?
Kinzo managed to hide a Mansion, 10 tons of gold, and two Beatrices, for way way way longer.
Natsuhi and Krauss are managing to hide the death of Kinzo. Hell the moment we accepted Kinzo as being already dead, Shkanon shouldn't have been a stretch to accept.
Not to mention that Battler being Kyrie's son was hidden from them, or that Krauss never learned about the man from 19 years ago.
Who'd be more suspicious? You go to see your grandfather, and don't get to see him for two years in a row, and you're going to demand to see two random servants at the specific same time because you think there's something up with them?
If anything, people on Rokkenjima have too many secrets to wonder about to imagine ones like Shkanon, it's like the Sun blocking the stars during the day.
As for outrageous, omega bomb + chapel FT in arc 2 is all I've really got to say about this.

Now you might, independently, claim that all of this is crazy and makes Umineko bad. I somehow tend to think this is probably Renall's opinion (sorry if I'm wrong), but there's just no reason to specifically consider Shkanon to be worst then the rest, because it really isn't.

Also two things.
I think Jessica knows about Shkanon because in arc 2 she tells Shannon something like "I think of you as my best friend" which sounds like the follow up to her failed confession to Kanon. Furthermore her whole speech about having "more then one selves" to Kanon sounds like it could've been the origin of the whole deal, and not weirdly having Jessica preaching to someone who already surpassed her in that. As a matter of fact I think it makes some sense if we think Yasu learned to act after being introduced to Jessica on a stage and especially seeing her outrageous costume.
I think there's a good hint about visual appearances being similar : even tho Shannon denies blood relation with Kanon, they tend to be called siblings by others. Why do you think?

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Old 2012-10-29, 15:21   Link #31037
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Kinzo's activities are equally as stupid and bad as Shkanon and are equally implausible. At least the ep7 stuff. The hidden mansion I can buy nobody knowing about while Kinzo was in control of the family. Once Krauss was even nominally in charge, he should've immediately known about the place. But the gold and explosives? Ludicrous. Their existence doesn't make Shkanon any better, it just makes Ryukishi more of a hack.

Hiding Kinzo's death seems about as plausible as ep5 made it seem. That is to say, the other siblings don't buy it at all but don't have anything they can really use to prove it yet. It's made very much abundantly clear in the early episodes that if Kinzo does not turn up alive pretty soon, the siblings are going to push for inheritance discussions. I don't think for a moment that they buy that Kinzo is dead and the fact that Krauss and Natsuhi are criminally complicit in covering it up is clearly intended as part of their bargaining position. It's just implicit rather than explicit, because it's a pretty harsh accusation to make against family. That at least I have no complaints about. I'd complain if it appeared to be working perfectly fine and no one was the wiser.

The baby swap with Rudolf is dumb and seemingly pointless, but I can accept that it's possible if he really wants it to happen and has enough money. That Kyrie wouldn't know is another matter, but Battler takes after his father's side of the family (he's said to resemble Kinzo in his youth), so how is Kyrie going to suspect he's her son if she doesn't live with him and he doesn't resemble her? Of course, there's no purpose to the baby swap or Kyrie being his mother, so God only knows why this is in there to begin with.

Shkanon isn't dumb if it happens only in the stories. It is completely beyond any stretch of belief if it happened in real life (absent things like "Kanon" accompanying Jessica to her school festival). There is no indication specifically that it would have, though, so I just choose to believe Yasu-the-writer did it to make a point and not because she's actually crazy.
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Old 2012-10-29, 15:53   Link #31038
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Well prime remains a fiction anyway. If someone tried to make me believe a murder spree such as the ones in Umineko including the letters and fake murders and all even without Shkanon I'd have quite a hard time believing any of it.

Still I guess I was overall trying to make two points.
1) There are other things like Shkanon, even if we dislike them, I don't think we should've been surprised or discarded it considering everything else.
2) Shkanon has one big advantage next to most other things that were hidden : nobody is specifically looking into it or has any reasons to. Compared to Kinzo's status or the gold, especially if as you say most of the time Kanon existed the sibblings have been thinking about Kinzo's life/death status, I don't think it's such a stretch to accept it.
If as you and others say and I tend to think as well, Shkanon is a thing only existing in the fictions (like probably many others) and was there to make a point, I think the people on Rokkenjima has the same chances we'd have if we were given only a single arc and no second reading.

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There's also what Wanderer points out about the meta-evolution of the romances. In Turn the romance is just barely starting. In Dawn Jessica's really into him. Those are the same two days. There must be some degree of embellishment or uncertainty one direction or the other. Such evolution of the relationship is impossible except as a meta-construct unless that's the case.
Well that these events happens on the same two days doesn't mean that they were written in the same two days or that they allude to prime events that really happened in these two days.
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:37   Link #31039
Kealym
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I guess that's sorta it tho, yeah it didn't seem to make much sense, but really what did we know after reading arc 1 + arc 2's intro, at that very point?
I'm not sure how too put it, but crazy stuff can get explanations later on, like many did in Higurashi (tho the sense they made is actually debatable I guess).
That's true, but ... those explanation NEVER came, later. The story ended. As of the end of Turn's opening, I knew "the idea that Kanon is just an imaginary friend is kind of too wonky to work".

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Going further into that debate tho. What's so crazy about Shkanon, in the light of everything else?
Well, without specifically replying to each point you mentioned, those are all just ... things my suspension of disbelief can withstand. Shkanon's day-to-day life, based solely on what's actually in the text, is something it cannot, when I think about it for anything more than a couple moments?

About your Jessica thing, well ... I disagree, but I respect it as a pretty valid interpretation. I'd say it's a little wonky because I think the stuff with the couples was supposed to take place in 1985? I'm not sure, and don't feel like arguing enough to check.

About the other thing, though, and this is just my personal experience, but calling someone you grew up with (especially if they were raised in the same household) your "brother" or "sister" or "cousin" is really common, as far as I've seen. If it had been an unstated thing, I might think "perhaps those two are related?", but we're specifically told "No no no, they're not related at all."

Such a matter is touched on, very slightly, in End, when Battler suggests that the "Rosa" who went to bed in the guesthouse was someone else in disguise, but Dlanor insists clues would have been shown. Honestly, if it had been pushed, I think we would've gotten special Shkanon logic about how neither of them was actually disguised as anyone other than themselves, just like how they're sometimes dead, and sometimes dead ... -ish.
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Old 2012-10-29, 17:21   Link #31040
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Yes, this is interesting. I distinctly remember thinking, back when I read the earlier parts of EP2 "Geez, Kanon, what are you? Some imaginary friend Shannon calls forth when she needs to be angry or angsty about some shit?" Keeping in mind, also, that Shmion was a thing that happened.

However, I abandoned that line of thinking very quickly, since, to be frank, the idea that "Shannon and Kanon might be the same person" just flew in the face of common sense. Especially since the story had not been going on long enough at all for there to be a pattern of "Battler never sees them together, OoooOOOoooo", it seemed like they were presented as present in front of SO MANY people that it was clearly preposterous, and of course, the idea that noone would recognize it? It was a dumb idea then, and it's mostly still a dumb idea now, just one I accept as the authors intention.

Honestly, and it's been said before by others, but I doubt Ryu had fully thought out all the "mechanics" and logistics of his solution, yet. Considering also that he gave several arcs HUGE rewrites depending on how the Japanese fandom was reacting to the previous ones, I think, at best, he had a vague idea of the general sentiment of Shkanon, and didn't think the details out beyond Oct. 4 and 5 1986.

And that sentiment, IMO, seems to be about acknowledging Kanon's distinct personhood, the "magic" that allowed for his existence int he first place, and how that magic is strenghtened by having it acknowledged by others. Still, though, if there had been just one line, something like "actually, Kanon doesn't work here very often, he's more of a part-time guy..." or maybe saying that Shannon and Kanon were actual blood siblings, instead of just "close like a brother and sister", or even, actually, if the story were written with her several years OLDER than she currently is, it would just avoid so many of the obvious problems.

... thinking on it this way, I can explain Will's nonsensical "We don't need to hear about the last two years" as not just Ryu being lazy, but by saying Even Will knew the bullshit that layed ahead would probably have been too much for even HIS patience.
Yes, I also thought so.

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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
i don't think I'm missing any point at all by questioning the plausibility of leading a double life. I understand the gameboards need not reflect reality entirely, but, I mean ... there is clearly some intent to at least stay within the bounds of what reality was kinda sorta like. It's basically a huge plot hole, and lazy writing.
Surely the whole thing isn't planned very well as we're given no hints about how Yasu managed such a thing. She's pretty young and, although Shannon might not spend all her time on Rokkenjima, her spare time should be also spent at school where Jessica also is, leaving her very short time to play the role of Kanon.
Not mentioning that apparently in Prime nothing came up about Kanon not being real/being a completely unknwon guy, which means the other workers likely confirmed there was a Kanon guy working in Rokkenjima who should also have some documents proving his existence. We're told servants, among them, didn't call themselves with their blessed names so the other servants should know which was Kanon's name but even if they didn't likely the police could ask the orphanage which were the orphans sent to the Ushiromiya.
Male servants were a bit of uncommon so it shouldn't be impossible to figure out if 'Yoshiya' existed and if it didn't it should raise suspicions.

Basically, Umineko first seems done as if the people had more chances to solve the gameboard than the police has to solve prime but then, if you think at it, the police might have had much more leads than us that would point at Shannon and Kanon. Maybe they would still not solve the whole thing but surely those two would look a lot more suspicious than they did to us.

A theory I also played with is that only on the gameboard Shannon and Kanon were the same person while in Prime they were different people and for some reason Yasu projected on herself Kanon in her tales but, if that was the plan, personally I don't like it much.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Hence the quotation marks.
Jessica didn't die in the confrontation but George did and herself having died at a later point perhaps due to injuries.
This would generate a story with a second culprit... it's not that's impossible but I don't think that's what Yasu had in mind.

I wonder if she had in mind the backstory of one of Christie's mysteries in which a person she knew asked her to write him inside her story as the culprit because the culprit is the most interesting character in a mystery.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Perhaps thats what actually went down in EP 4 where Jessica and George "killed" each other?

As in it wasn't:
Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap but simply Jessica vs George.

And perhaps Jessica knew about Yasu.
Didn't she went along with Nanjo to "treat" Kanon in EP1?
Yes, but likely she saw nothing or she would have noticed he wasn't hurt... or, he could have waved it off saying they were preparing a trap for the culprit and he faked being hurt and to please pretend he'd been injuried (it would be sort of weak though as he would become very suspicious when people would continue to die but maybe love would made Jessica that blind or she never dared to voice her suspicions).

Also there was nothing to see that would point out at Kanon being Shannon as Shannon has no breasts so if she were to see Kanon without a shirt he wouldn't have looked suspicious. Things would have probably been different if Shannon had been in Kanon's place...

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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
Was Jessica really as interested in Yasu as she seems to be in the gameboards, though? It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Since Kanon is mostly portrayed as never actually pursuing his chance at love, I think it's probably more like Yasu felt something for Jessica and had suspicions that she might have felt something back, but that they never actually talked about it and it never really went anywhere.
I think that Jessica was interested in Kanon... Yasu might have, at best, mistaken the strenght of Jessica's interest. Jessica is, after all, looking out for a boyfriend and she's trying to build something with Kanon that looks more like getting close as friends at the moment.
We can't really say if, in the long run, Jessica would be willing to start a permanent relation with Kanon as Kanon deliberately doesn't allow the two of them to get close.
Even if Kanon were to allow it, Jessica might discover that she doesn't like him much... unless he plays the Shannon card and tries to adapt to her as Shannon seems to try to do with George, accepting his wishes without ever telling how she wanted things to be between the two of them.

And do I remember wrong or in EP 6 it was said that, were Jessica the one to win the duel she and Kanon would grow closer and the thing is described as basically Kanon entering in Jessica's world of interests (studying music for example) but not with Jessica entering in Kanon's world (whatever that world included?).


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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Kinzo managed to hide a Mansion, 10 tons of gold, and two Beatrices, for way way way longer.
Natsuhi and Krauss are managing to hide the death of Kinzo. Hell the moment we accepted Kinzo as being already dead, Shkanon shouldn't have been a stretch to accept.
Not to mention that Battler being Kyrie's son was hidden from them, or that Krauss never learned about the man from 19 years ago.
Who'd be more suspicious? You go to see your grandfather, and don't get to see him for two years in a row, and you're going to demand to see two random servants at the specific same time because you think there's something up with them?
To be honest it's implied the siblings only went to see Kinzotwice in those years after kinzo's death, one being the time of the Rokkenjima incident and they all were suspicious about Kinzo not being really alive.

I'm sure Jessica might have found the thing odd as well but since the fact she couldn't see grandad was a lie supported by everyone she loved she likely preferred to believe it to be true than accept that Kinzo was dead and everyone was lying to her about it.

Also Krauss knew about the baby, Natsuhi told him and Rosa discovered the secret mansion, over which everyone had suspicious as Kinzo's wife was used to have her kids search for him when he disappeared.

In Ep 8 is also implied that Asumu might have found out that Battler wasn't her kid.

So, as you see, many of the other crazy stuffs weren't blindly accepted.

ShKanon is odd because Shannon and Kanon are never doubted yet all the suspicious things that should be obvious about them are never discussed by the other characters.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kinzo's activities are equally as stupid and bad as Shkanon and are equally implausible. At least the ep7 stuff. The hidden mansion I can buy nobody knowing about while Kinzo was in control of the family. Once Krauss was even nominally in charge, he should've immediately known about the place. But the gold and explosives? Ludicrous. Their existence doesn't make Shkanon any better, it just makes Ryukishi more of a hack.
Yes, most of Ep 7 backstory seems weak. Sometimes I wonder if we should consider it similar to Yasu's backstory, a tale that wasn't exactly honest but more like an interpretation of the truth (after all it was said in red that Kinzo wasn't so pure as he painted himself to be during the whole gold mess with the Japanese and the Italians and it was implied that the commander he disliked so much might have been a better person).

The fact Krauss never found out about Kuwadorian also seems pretty weird.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The baby swap with Rudolf is dumb and seemingly pointless, but I can accept that it's possible if he really wants it to happen and has enough money. That Kyrie wouldn't know is another matter, but Battler takes after his father's side of the family (he's said to resemble Kinzo in his youth), so how is Kyrie going to suspect he's her son if she doesn't live with him and he doesn't resemble her? Of course, there's no purpose to the baby swap or Kyrie being his mother, so God only knows why this is in there to begin with.
I agree. Rudolf could have divorced from Asumu and married Kyrie if the baby was the problem. After all he'll always remain pretty close to Kyrie and he'll even complain about asumu not being as perfect as she painted herself to be (though honestly if I had been in her place and I were to find out what he did I would seriously consider strangling him with my bare hands).

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Well prime remains a fiction anyway. If someone tried to make me believe a murder spree such as the ones in Umineko including the letters and fake murders and all even without Shkanon I'd have quite a hard time believing any of it.

Still I guess I was overall trying to make two points.
1) There are other things like Shkanon, even if we dislike them, I don't think we should've been surprised or discarded it considering everything else.
2) Shkanon has one big advantage next to most other things that were hidden : nobody is specifically looking into it or has any reasons to. Compared to Kinzo's status or the gold, especially if as you say most of the time Kanon existed the sibblings have been thinking about Kinzo's life/death status, I don't think it's such a stretch to accept it.
Uhm... the fact there are other things that are hard to believe doesn't make ShKanon more believable.
The problem might be that each of us might accept to suspend his disbelief for 1 or more of them but the whole of them look really too much for many of us.
Maybe not each of us choose ShKanon as the most unbelievable but this doesn't mean it turns as believable, just that other people focused more on other things.
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