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Old 2012-10-26, 13:42   Link #181
Esebian
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Please tell me you didn't just equate science to conspiracy theory. There's a big difference between saying nothing is impossible in a scientific context, and the nuts who wear tinfoils on their head so they won't be controlled by aliens.



Not so interested in some random book written by random people, there's plenty of those around. I'm looking for actual credible published academic research that is peer-reviewed. Frankly, something of this magnitude would be quite well known, and I have yet to come across anything in my search other than conspiracy nuts websites.

I can get you a copy of a "research paper" by flat-earthers, doesn't mean what they wrote in there remotely resembles reality.
Lol ofc not XD but things that today would be impossible and things for that everybody would laugh about you if you stated them could be possible in a decade; science was always like this and will always be like that. Ofc I wouldn't actually believe in that alien thingy, at most I would laugh at seeing such ppl but it's not like that everything claimed to be impossible has to be impossible ^^

And those conspirancy theories at least are a good proof of our great imagination xD

Well I will try to find it, if I do I will show it to you otherwise I simply accept my defeat, it's not like we could proof anything ourselves ^^
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Old 2012-10-28, 09:24   Link #182
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Please tell me you didn't just equate science to conspiracy theory. There's a big difference between saying nothing is impossible in a scientific context, and the nuts who wear tinfoils on their head so they won't be controlled by aliens.



Not so interested in some random book written by random people, there's plenty of those around. I'm looking for actual credible published academic research that is peer-reviewed. Frankly, something of this magnitude would be quite well known, and I have yet to come across anything in my search other than conspiracy nuts websites.

I can get you a copy of a "research paper" by flat-earthers, doesn't mean what they wrote in there remotely resembles reality.
Well in terms of physics if you go super small, or super fast the science tends to hinge on belief.

For example any thing with dark in its name is basically a fudge to get the current models working.

Personally I believe that the best scientists are the ones who are open minded and are willing to put anything under the same level of rigorous testing and that proven today doesn't mean proven tomorrow!

So something that is considered nutty by the current academic community might not be in a few years time
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Old 2012-10-28, 10:06   Link #183
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@ grey moon

Those are at least based on maths and other substantive theories, it's a far cry from, saying a microwave oven can make people see ghosts without any substantive evidence to back it up, especially when electromagnetic radiation are pretty well understood.
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Old 2012-10-28, 16:48   Link #184
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Personally I believe that the best scientists are the ones who are open minded and are willing to put anything under the same level of rigorous testing and that proven today doesn't mean proven tomorrow!

So something that is considered nutty by the current academic community might not be in a few years time
Actually, in science, what's PROVEN today will stay proven tomorrow, that's the point of it. we build our knowledge from foundations laid down yesterday, otherwise scientists would just end up spinning around in circles.

As for staying open minded, one can only do so to a certain extent. when a new-idea comes about, one would first compare it to well proven theories, or laws, in the current field. in this case, these would be the laws governing electromagnetic waves, which was studied extensively and have been proven experimentally time and again for over a century. now, if an idea wants to say the opposite, it had better stand up to scrutiny. the thing about science is that once something is more or less "proven", or established, it stays that way until proven otherwise. staying open minded means to accept the evidence presented in front of you. any good scientist will dismiss any and all "ideas" is there's zero credible evidence backing it up
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Old 2012-10-29, 01:25   Link #185
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
@ grey moon

Those are at least based on maths and other substantive theories, it's a far cry from, saying a microwave oven can make people see ghosts without any substantive evidence to back it up, especially when electromagnetic radiation are pretty well understood.
Currently there is no substantive evidence to back up any the dark theories, and in terms of mathematical models they are the fudge that allows the models to work

EM is well understood, but high levels directed at the human brain to cause visual impairment??? A dark subject and testing is frowned upon with today's modern science.

But I'll say one thing, every lab with a high powered magnetron device comes with a boat load of warning labels. Science or not, I personally believe that having your brained cooked with EMR, seeing things could be a side effect, that and death

*EDIT*
Hmmm even a quick google brings up a wiki entry on EM and the human brain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...against_humans

"When used against humans electromagnetic weapons can have dramatic effects, such as the intense burning sensation caused by Raytheon's Active Denial system, or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people."

So EM does effect the human brain, can it make people see things? Maybe by setting up the right mental environment even a shadow passing can appear to be something else!
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:06   Link #186
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sigh,

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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Currently there is no substantive evidence to back up any the dark theories, and in terms of mathematical models they are the fudge that allows the models to work
I wasn't talking specifically about dark matter/energy theories, but even then you're being disingenuous here. The scientists didn't just conjur them up out of nowhere because they're bored, they're there because that's what the current best model says they should be there.

If you can't see the difference between that and pulling stuff out of one's arse, then there's not much to talk about.

Quote:
EM is well understood, but high levels directed at the human brain to cause visual impairment??? A dark subject and testing is frowned upon with today's modern science.
Not really, it's actually easily done - get a tactical/high power flashlight and point it at someone's eyes - Viola, visual impairment via high level of EMR.

Quote:
But I'll say one thing, every lab with a high powered magnetron device comes with a boat load of warning labels. Science or not, I personally believe that having your brained cooked with EMR, seeing things could be a side effect, that and death
what a scientific conclusion

BTW, every moment of your life, your body, including your brain, is bombarded with multiple types of EMR, guess you better put those tinfoils on.

Too bad it won't help


Quote:
"When used against humans electromagnetic weapons can have dramatic effects, such as the intense burning sensation caused by Raytheon's Active Denial system, or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people."
LOL, the burning sensation is caused by... oh yea, because they actually ARE burning - it's the diathermal effect from the microwave emission, it's also used for certain medical therapies. The ADS simply turns up the intensity.

Oh, and the anxiety, dread, confusion? how 'bout because it's making a bunch of people feel like their body is on fire?

Quote:
So EM does effect the human brain, can it make people see things? Maybe by setting up the right mental environment even a shadow passing can appear to be something else!
The only EMR that makes people see things are visible lights, but hey, if you can "see" the radio signal powering your radio, all the more power to you.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:11   Link #187
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@kyp275 - There are plenty of easy to understand and entertaining documentaries discussing the dark theories (et al) and specifically have the leading scientist expressing their dislike/unease of the theories because of how they are kinda pulled out of someone's arse so theory A doesn't disrupt theory B.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:16   Link #188
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You're ignoring the context. Compared to your more traditional scientific theories, dark matter/energy would look like something that came out of nowhere since it's all theoretical, but that's hardly the same as something that goes against currently established facts without even so much as a theory backing it.

BTW, the Higgs Boson was very much in the same boat as dark matter/energy, and look how that one turned out.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:21   Link #189
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
You're ignoring the context. Compared to your more traditional scientific theories, dark matter/energy would look like something that came out of nowhere since it's all theoretical, but that's hardly the same as something that goes against currently established facts without even so much as a theory backing it.

BTW, the Higgs Boson was very much in the same boat as dark matter/energy, and look how that one turned out.
Are you talking about the Higgs Boson which they prematurely thought they found proof of its existence? Unless you are privy to unreleased news about confirmation of the Higgs Boson, if so I stand corrected.

Ah the power of media speculation

The confirmation of HB is so very important as it would go a long way in actually proving some of the theories!
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:40   Link #190
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Not sure where YOU'RE getting your information from, but the latest from CERN is that they've confirmed the existence of a new particle that behaves just like what a Higgs Boson should, the results has been peer-reviewed, and will be undergoing additional confirmation testing after the LHC is back up online.

This is nothing new, the news of the confirmation was well over a month ago.
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Old 2012-10-29, 02:48   Link #191
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Not sure where YOU'RE getting your information from, but the latest from CERN is that they've confirmed the existence of a new particle that behaves just like what a Higgs Boson should, the results has been peer-reviewed, and will be undergoing additional confirmation testing after the LHC is back up online.

This is nothing new, the news of the confirmation was well over a month ago.
Errr that isn't confirmation of its existence

They found something that behaves like it, lets wait for the confirmation before cracking open the discovery of the decade champers!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16116236

Also please read the comments of the following:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknap...een-confirmed/
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Old 2012-10-29, 05:51   Link #192
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
Errr that isn't confirmation of its existence

They found something that behaves like it, lets wait for the confirmation before cracking open the discovery of the decade champers!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-16116236

Also please read the comments of the following:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknap...een-confirmed/
For CERN, it is. And frankly looking for others to "independently reproduce" the result in this case is just stupid, not everyone has a LHC in their backyard.

Is CERN going to to additional testing? yes. Does that change their assertion that they've found the Higgs? no.

In any case, this has gone off the rails enough. The original point is that there's a difference between actual science and random off-the-handle claims without any basis to back it up. Not ALL claims are created equal, otherwise you're basically operating under the same principles that lead to pseudo-science crap like creationism.

I can make a claim that I can jump to the moon from the surface of the earth because I have the ability to step on air, should a completely bogus claim like that be received with the same "open mindedness" as, say, the Standard Model in physics?
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Old 2012-10-29, 08:00   Link #193
grey_moon
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
For CERN, it is. And frankly looking for others to "independently reproduce" the result in this case is just stupid, not everyone has a LHC in their backyard.

Is CERN going to to additional testing? yes. Does that change their assertion that they've found the Higgs? no.

In any case, this has gone off the rails enough. The original point is that there's a difference between actual science and random off-the-handle claims without any basis to back it up. Not ALL claims are created equal, otherwise you're basically operating under the same principles that lead to pseudo-science crap like creationism.

I can make a claim that I can jump to the moon from the surface of the earth because I have the ability to step on air, should a completely bogus claim like that be received with the same "open mindedness" as, say, the Standard Model in physics?
I'd like to thank you for an interesting discussion, kinda made me read up on the status of Higgs Boson which is all very exciting

I don't think we would ever see eye to eye as I personally prefer an approach of discussion, and at least trying to see someone else's PoV before branding them an heretic

I'm not saying that this is who you are as I don't know you, but your response to the earlier post which triggered my response and the subsequent replies to mine makes me think this, but still I've had a very interesting discussion.
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Old 2012-10-29, 08:08   Link #194
Esebian
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
For CERN, it is. And frankly looking for others to "independently reproduce" the result in this case is just stupid, not everyone has a LHC in their backyard.

Is CERN going to to additional testing? yes. Does that change their assertion that they've found the Higgs? no.

In any case, this has gone off the rails enough. The original point is that there's a difference between actual science and random off-the-handle claims without any basis to back it up. Not ALL claims are created equal, otherwise you're basically operating under the same principles that lead to pseudo-science crap like creationism.

I can make a claim that I can jump to the moon from the surface of the earth because I have the ability to step on air, should a completely bogus claim like that be received with the same "open mindedness" as, say, the Standard Model in physics?

Ehm, even if you could do that...in the outer space we have a vacuum, so no stepping on air xD (sry for nitpicking ^^)

Ah well as promised the name of the researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Tandy

Problem is his case was with infrasound not with microwaves but my claim basically is that even an un-ionized wave with the correct wavelength can affect the human brain (without ofc cooking it XD) while yours is that they can't. Btw I know that infrasound is a mechanical wave and that mcrowave is an em-wave but the major difference between those 2 is only that the one needs a medium while the other doesn't, both have the same rules at the basics.

But as cases are rare and as u said they are NOT reviewed by some scients in a lab (at least I don't think so) I more or less give up. The problem is that this case won't satisfy you and it's completly correct that it won't as this is no actual proof.

Ah and for the conspiracy theory thingy it seems we both talked at cross purposes xD

My point is that conspiracy theories are things that animate people to think over certain circumstances both as a normal rational thinking human and ofc scientists aswell. Out of that animation people can think of things they have never thought before of and can come to new (scientific) conclusions, I never meant that you should believe in those, they should be just the stepping stone for actual discoveries.

Sry, I sometimes lag the right words, not in english but in general to convey my point.

EDIT: Ah and yes I have to thank u aswell it's nice to have a partner in a discussion who doesn't believe in everything you say without an actual proof and is not getting subjective or anything over the time
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Old 2012-10-29, 09:03   Link #195
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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
I don't think we would ever see eye to eye as I personally prefer an approach of discussion, and at least trying to see someone else's PoV before branding them an heretic
Nope, I see your PoV, as a matter of fact I've seen many like those before, but until you show something other than the same flawed concepts that underpins fake "science" such as creationism, I see no reason to change my views on your PoV.

It's one thing to have a debate on philosophical issues, but when it comes to science, one is not entitled to his/her own facts.

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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
Ehm, even if you could do that...in the outer space we have a vacuum, so no stepping on air xD (sry for nitpicking ^^)
It's ok, I'll just swim through the ether

Quote:
Ah well as promised the name of the researcher: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Tandy

Problem is his case was with infrasound not with microwaves but my claim basically is that even an un-ionized wave with the correct wavelength can affect the human brain (without ofc cooking it XD) while yours is that they can't. Btw I know that infrasound is a mechanical wave and that mcrowave is an em-wave but the major difference between those 2 is only that the one needs a medium while the other doesn't, both have the same rules at the basics.

But as cases are rare and as u said they are NOT reviewed by some scients in a lab (at least I don't think so) I more or less give up. The problem is that this case won't satisfy you and it's completly correct that it won't as this is no actual proof.
...good lord, a ghost hunting physic researcher, really?

........guess I'd better prepare for the upcoming alien invasion, since they've already landed at Roswell!


Quote:
My point is that conspiracy theories are things that animate people to think over certain circumstances both as a normal rational thinking human and ofc scientists aswell. Out of that animation people can think of things they have never thought before of and can come to new (scientific) conclusions, I never meant that you should believe in those, they should be just the stepping stone for actual discoveries.
It's one thing to be skeptical and always seeking out new things, it's another to do pretend/pseudo science that has little basis in reality. The key difference is that for real science, theories are crafted and further iterated and built upon based on results of the experiments and observations, pseudo-science sets their results first, then proceeds to twist things in order to fit their preconceived results.

Human reaction to infrasound (if even real, as there are very limited studies on this that I can find, and those that I have are suspect to say the least) would likely be something of an automatic physiological response, perhaps an evolutionary leftover from earlier ages.
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Old 2012-10-29, 09:22   Link #196
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It's ok, I'll just swim through the ether
Hmm, seems legit to me

Quote:
It's one thing to be skeptical and always seeking out new things, it's another to do pretend/pseudo science that has little basis in reality. The key difference is that for real science, theories are crafted and further iterated and built upon based on results of the experiments and observations, pseudo-science sets their results first, then proceeds to twist things in order to fit their preconceived results.
Well that's obvious, just thinking about fortune telling proves this 1000 times XD (sth like: while doing your fortune telling I oversaw that the Sirius is in a bad ankle to you so i misinterpret your future as a positiv one, while in reality you lost your job...)

Quote:
Human reaction to infrasound (if even real, as there are very limited studies on this that I can find, and those that I have are suspect to say the least) would likely be something of an automatic physiological response, perhaps an evolutionary leftover from earlier ages.
Ok, that could be also the case; well we can't proof that by physical standarts, any biologists or geneticists around? xD

EDIT: Btw how did the discussion about the NerveGear evolve in a discussion about dark matter and Higgs Bosons? XD
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Old 2012-10-29, 10:32   Link #197
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Nope, I see your PoV, as a matter of fact I've seen many like those before, but until you show something other than the same flawed concepts that underpins fake "science" such as creationism, I see no reason to change my views on your PoV.
I'm not asking or expecting you to change your PoV, but to respect others. For example even taking the time to read the provided links before aggressively debunking.

On topic as it has to do with can microwaves modify how the brain perceives things.

I posted the quote from the wiki "When used against humans electromagnetic weapons can have dramatic effects, such as the intense burning sensation caused by Raytheon's Active Denial system, or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people."

Which to me reads as:

At short range causes burning

At long range aka distance "or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people"

But from your reply it seemed to me that you decided to bundle the effects without taking range into account just to make your point. Whether or not the science is good or bad, if you decide to interpret information the way you want isn't that just bad science?

There you go again trying to associate my PoV with creationism

But if you read my main point which I may not have gotten across properly, is that I believe that any theory should be taken with an open mind and subjected to the same level of high review and testing. By doing that I believe pseudo science will be eliminated rather then a breeding ground of misinformation, even some sciences which are considered norm, for example "dietitians vs nutritionists"

Fanatical science can be just as bad a fanatical religion IMHO

*EDIT*
In terms of making the brain hear stuff that isn't there, I think a good area to start is psycho acoustic modelling, which is a well established science. One of its main uses is to reduce the size of audio files, as you can drop parts of the wave and the brain still perceives it!

There is also the super set of this which I can't remember the name of right now, which deals with how the brain deals with data in general. One area this was being looked at is how to make games more realistic via the good old 2d screen
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Old 2012-10-29, 14:26   Link #198
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Originally Posted by Esebian View Post
EDIT: Btw how did the discussion about the NerveGear evolve in a discussion about dark matter and Higgs Bosons? XD
No clue

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
I'm not asking or expecting you to change your PoV, but to respect others. For example even taking the time to read the provided links before aggressively debunking.
Which I did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
I posted the quote from the wiki "When used against humans electromagnetic weapons can have dramatic effects, such as the intense burning sensation caused by Raytheon's Active Denial system, or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people."

Which to me reads as:

At short range causes burning

At long range aka distance "or more subtle effects such as the creation—at a distance—of a sense of anxiety or dread, intense drowsiness, or confusion in an individual or a group of people"

But from your reply it seemed to me that you decided to bundle the effects without taking range into account just to make your point. Whether or not the science is good or bad, if you decide to interpret information the way you want isn't that just bad science?
Your first problem is quoting wikipedia, which is a good starting point, but is not reference grade material.

Which brings me to the second point, I'm actually somewhat familiar with the ADS (military), and I have never even heard of any of the secondary effect mentioned in the wiki article being associated with the actual millimeter wave, which incidentally is also the only place where it can be found. Go look up all the papers published, both by the DoD and various universities on the ADS, it'll become readily apparent to you what's actually there and what's not.

Moral of the story is, take stuff you see on wikipedia with a grain of salt.



Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
But if you read my main point which I may not have gotten across properly, is that I believe that any theory should be taken with an open mind and subjected to the same level of high review and testing. By doing that I believe pseudo science will be eliminated rather then a breeding ground of misinformation, even some sciences which are considered norm, for example "dietitians vs nutritionists"
This I agree with.


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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
*EDIT*
In terms of making the brain hear stuff that isn't there, I think a good area to start is psycho acoustic modelling, which is a well established science. One of its main uses is to reduce the size of audio files, as you can drop parts of the wave and the brain still perceives it!

There is also the super set of this which I can't remember the name of right now, which deals with how the brain deals with data in general. One area this was being looked at is how to make games more realistic via the good old 2d screen
That has more to do with how the brain processes information. It's not just audio either, it's the same for visual data as well. The human brain discards most of the sensory inputs it receives, it relies on recognizing patterns and then fill in the gaps based on prior experiences.
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Old 2012-11-12, 21:49   Link #199
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Is SAO save data that corrupted ALO stats bugs already discussed here?

I though this could become serious security bug in ALO. But in other hand could also become pretty interesting feature for ALO/SAO like game which is player could transfer his stat from one game to another.
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Old 2012-11-12, 22:00   Link #200
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I've always felt that a good comparison to the SAO -> ALO save thing is Baldur's gate.

You could transfer a character from Baldur's Gate 1 to Baldur's Gate 2, which basically ran off the same engine. They'd keep their levels, experience, abilities, whatever. Some items could transferred over, but not all of them. You see, every item had a filepath, something like "ilo100005" (Not an actual example.). But in the sequel, some of them were changed. So item "ilo100005" might be a longsword+2 in BG1, in BG2 that location now refers to a ring of protection or something.

So looking back at SAO, ALO appears to use enough of the same engine that most of the relevant character data (Which mostly just seems to be weapon skills.) is stored in the same location as a numerical value. Same with money. But with the exception of Yui, all the item paths got used for other stuff.

At least that's the way I see it.
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