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Old 2012-10-30, 11:22   Link #1401
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
I've posted that it appears the mode will only activated if certain limit has been passed instead of mysteriously change itself...
That doesn't relate to my point.

My point is that there's no evidence that once the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode that the person holding the gun can manually override back down to "Paralyzing shot". So if the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode, an option has been taken away from the person handling (that option being "shoot to non-lethally subdue").

A speedometer doesn't take options away from police officers. It's still at their discretion as to how to respond to a "red" speedometer reading.


Quote:
Problem is, she sit on POOL of Gasoline that will explode and KILL Kogami who stand on the pool.

Also, while the paralyzer might cause her to faint, but as long as the lighter still in her hand then the POOL gasoline still might explode and KILL Kogami...
Well, if you want to get this technical, then lethal shot might cause her to drop the lighter (just before her body completely explodes), lighter's flame hits the poll, and you still get massive explosion.

Even given these very specific circumstances, I don't see how lethal shot is preferable to paralyzing shot purely for the sake of eliminating the immediate threat posed by the target.

So I don't think that shifting from Paralyzing shot to Lethal shot is simply a reflection of immediate threat level. I think it's because the Crime Coefficient has shot up, and the Dominator basically determines that once a person's CC goes so high, that person is beyond the point of rehabilitation (hence "it's Ok to kill him/her").

The fact that this rape victim is successfully recovering shows a weakness in the the Dominator, imo - It can take an unwarranted "Shoot to Kill" approach with certain targets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post

Sorry, I think I may have caused you to misunderstand here - I'm not saying that the system has been tampered or sabotaged (there's no concrete evidence of that... yet), I'm saying that it's a convention of the cyberpunk genre that any such system as this usually ends up sabotaged or tampered, or if it's a self-aware AI, goes rampant. I'm actually speculating/expecting.
I see your point. Yeah, there's a good chance that Psycho-Pass will go in one of those two directions.


Quote:

That said, at least on the threat assessment when the energy blasts start flying, the system at least appears to be able to judge threat levels.
That's probably true. But I don't think that the Dominator's readings are based on threat level alone. I could be wrong about that, but we'll probably just have to wait and see.
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Old 2012-10-30, 12:07   Link #1402
MarkS00N
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That doesn't relate to my point.

My point is that there's no evidence that once the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode that the person holding the gun can manually override back down to "Paralyzing shot". So if the gun goes into "Lethal shot" mode, an option has been taken away from the person handling (that option being "shoot to non-lethally subdue").

A speedometer doesn't take options away from police officers. It's still at their discretion as to how to respond to a "red" speedometer reading.
See, here's the difference in our way of thinking...
For me, as long as there are choice to choose, without pressure, it isn't forced, it merely a recommendation...
However you think if one choice is taken away, even if there are still several different choices, than it is forced...

Quote:
Well, if you want to get this technical, then lethal shot might cause her to drop the lighter (just before her body completely explodes), lighter's flame hits the poll, and you still get massive explosion.

Even given these very specific circumstances, I don't see how lethal shot is preferable to paralyzing shot purely for the sake of eliminating the immediate threat posed by the target.

So I don't think that shifting from Paralyzing shot to Lethal shot is simply a reflection of immediate threat level. I think it's because the Crime Coefficient has shot up, and the Dominator basically determines that once a person's CC goes so high, that person is beyond the point of rehabilitation (hence "it's Ok to kill him/her").
1.) I don't go in to technical of whether the lighter will drop to oil if she died or not, the fact is she sit on POOL on oil with lighter and such condition can KILL Kogami as he stand on the same POOL of oil, and that what is taken to measurement of Target Threat's. She can KILL Kogami at that point thus the dominator activate Lethal Eliminator mode. Afterall Dominator is a weapon, unless of course there are more convenient mode like portal gun or something. But so far, Dominator seems to be programmed to use paralyzer or when Target's Threat pass certain point, a more lethal mode.
2.) Episode 1 never show increase in CC, but there are Target Threat's Judgement and that what invoke the Lethal Eliminator mode.

Right now the evidence presented by the show is as I explained. Of course it can be wrong if further evidence proof otherwise.

Quote:
The fact that this rape victim is successfully recovering shows a weakness in the the Dominator, imo - It can take an unwarranted "Shoot to Kill" approach with certain targets.
But dominator is a gun and much like any gun, 'It can take an unwarranted "Shoot to Kill" approach with certain targets.'
Though is it dominator fault if the trigger is pulled? Because from that sentence you seem to blame dominator if the action is took.

But for this issue, I would refer to my first sentence in this reply...
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Old 2012-10-30, 12:51   Link #1403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
That said, locking up people for being Latent Criminals spits on the whole Innocent Before Guilty principle of the law - if no crime has been committed, you have no case. As someone who studied law professionally, I don't claim that the system is perfect... unless it's a perfect tool to control the populace. Which it's not, BTW.
We keep coming back to this point. I agree, of course, that it's an important principle — in real life — but to keep harping on this is to miss the entire premise of the show.

As I've highlighted before, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Criminal Investigation Department's logo is adapted from the North American symbol for the medical profession. We are, in essence, being invited to ask: "What if an individual's potential for 'crime' can be detected in a way similar to how we diagnose disease?"

We're being asked to put aside our disbelief and to imagine an ethical system built on that premise. The premise is, at heart, quite simple and is, in fact, not very far removed from some of the ideas proposed by contemporary scientists as renowned as Samuel Harris and Richard Dawkins: that it makes no sense to have a justice system that punishes criminal behaviour after the fact if science could show that a defendant was psychologically incapable of distinguishing right from wrong the way healthy individuals can.

Monsters do exist. Serial killers are, for example, wired very differently from normal people and they can't help but kill.

And to take the premise one step further, if you could in fact diagnose criminal potential — and in this alternative reality, the underlying assumption is that it can be measured very accurately — would it be morally responsible to let the individual roam free when appropriate treatment is readily available?

I have asked whether an individual actually has a choice in such a scenario. If you believe yourself to be a moral individual, and wish to behave morally, yet have been diagnosed with a high criminal coefficient, would it be moral for you to refuse treatment and subject people around you to a higher risk of harm? In case you're thinking that this is a paradox — how can a moral man possibly have a high crime coefficient? — think again: there are plenty of experiments, scientific and non-scientific, to amply show how people very often over-estimate their abilities and are basically very poor judges of their limitations. In real life, it's very easy to know the right thing to do, but quite a different thing to do the right thing when it matters.

It's more than likely, I feel, that the origins of the Sibyl System lie somewhere near this premise, of handling the potential for crime as a treatable disease. The methods for treatment, as we've already been shown, echo the ways we'd handle contagious diseases today. Preventive methods include daily medication: Akane mentioned, very early in Ep1, her surprise that any individual could have allowed his hue/CC to rise so high; it hints strongly that it's a norm in this alternative reality for people to self-medicate for "criminal" tendencies, a norm that was further portrayed in Ep2 as Akane busied herself preparing for a working day.

And for people who are far more psychologically damaged (very diseased), isolation is enforced. There is the underlying assumption that criminal potential is contagious (let's put aside the objections to this in real life; there is a need for suspension of disbelief for the story's conceit to work), a point that was passingly reinforced in Ep2, when Akane's personal assistant program advised her to take medication to prevent contamination by environmental stress.

Again, as I've pointed out before, this is not very different from the way we would handle contagious disease, such as the recent SAR or H1N1 flu epidemics: we identify and quarantine the vectors as quickly as possible, while searching for a vaccine or cure.

In such a world, the focus of law enforcement has changed, in response to a reality where crime prevention has become a matter of number crunching. This fictional premise is not original. Many have pointed out Psycho-Pass' similarity with Minority Report, for example.

But, in reference to a recent thread elsewhere in the forum, the execution differs greatly. In Minority Report, crime prevention was made possible by a more far-fetched technology, that of tapping the mental abilities of a trio of psychics. Psycho-Pass, on the other hand, taps into facets of neuro- and behavioural that have already been extensively documented, to the point where much of the basic conclusions are already part of public knowledge. In other words, Psycho-Pass is grounded in something more real, more possible.

My arguments in support for the Sibyl System come from this angle. It's easy to dismiss dystopian fiction as something that could never happen in real life. It's much more fun, on the other hand, to imagine how it could have come to pass.

Because, quite frankly, I would be somewhat disappointed if, in the end, all I got from this show is a dystopian view that is a no-brainer to hate. Such stories are dime-a-dozen. I'm more interested to see if Psycho-Pass could present scenarios where there are no "win" conditions: no matter what choice the characters make — obey or disobey the system — they lose. Ep3 came close, but still fell somewhat short of the mark, I felt. It left me with no real sense of unease nor feelings of conflicted morals. My comment to Gen Urobuchi would be: Nice try, but try harder.
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Old 2012-10-30, 13:11   Link #1404
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How do you know that employers get any say in the matter? Was anybody allowed to say "no" to Akane when she applied for the position she currently has?
.... Now you're just making assumptions and presenting them as if they were fact.

EDIT: Actually disregard that. To put it a little better: What makes you think employers DON'T get a say in the matter?

Last edited by Dengar; 2012-10-30 at 17:00.
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Old 2012-10-30, 16:19   Link #1405
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Again, as I've pointed out before, this is not very different from the way we would handle contagious disease, such as the recent SAR or H1N1 flu epidemics: we identify and quarantine the vectors as quickly as possible, while searching for a vaccine or cure.
Except for the bits where they drop contagions vectors smack dab in the middle of vulnerable populations...
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Old 2012-10-30, 17:24   Link #1406
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
See, here's the difference in our way of thinking...
For me, as long as there are choice to choose, without pressure, it isn't forced, it merely a recommendation...
If a system's recommendations are followed 98% or more of the time, are they still "mere" recommendations? Admittedly, that 98% figure is a hypothetical one, but this narrative is (so far) giving every implication that people typically follow Sibyl's "recommendations".

I think that you, and some others, are downplaying the influence that Sibyl holds over the world of Psycho-Pass.

Quote:

However you think if one choice is taken away, even if there are still several different choices, than it is forced...
Several different choices? No, just two: Shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all. Those are the only choices that Dominator-users seem to have if the gun shifts to lethal mode.

In any event, your speedometer/Dominator analogy is not a good one for the simple reason that a speedometer doesn't strictly limit choices like this.


As for the whole "POOL with oil and lighter and such condition", you're missing my point there. My point is that Paralyzing shot is probably just as effective a means as negating that situational threat as Lethal shot is.

The person who was raped, her psychological state changed, and that is why her Crime Coefficient went up, in my opinion. Not because (or at least not just because) of the whole pool of oil situation.

Quote:
But dominator is a gun and much like any gun, 'It can take an unwarranted "Shoot to Kill" approach with certain targets.'
Yeah, but most good marskmen using a normal hand-gun are usually able to shoot to subdue but not kill (shooting someone in the leg, for example, can do this if it's a good shot).



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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
.... Now you're just making assumptions and presenting them as if they were fact.
Asking questions is making assumptions and presenting them as fact?

Not at all. My questions were designed to point out how you are making assumptions and presenting them as facts.

The fact is that we don't know if Akane's employer even had the option of saying "no" to her (i.e. "No, we don't want you for this job position"). So there's no basis for you to write "Nope, it's actually employers who refuse to hire people with anything short of an A rank."

For all we know, employers may have little-to-no say in the matter.



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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post

My arguments in support for the Sibyl System come from this angle. It's easy to dismiss dystopian fiction as something that could never happen in real life. It's much more fun, on the other hand, to imagine how it could have come to pass.
I don't think that the Sibyl System needs to be supported (by argumentation) in order to show how it could come to pass.

The War on Drugs came to pass, but many would argue (correctly, imo) that it's rather indefensible.

And, truth be told, I see some similarities between the Sibyl System and the War on Drugs.

The Sibyl System criminalizes people simply for having dangerous minds/moods, even if they haven't hurt anybody. The War on Drugs criminalizes people simply for using drugs that affect their mind/moods (sometimes in dangerous ways), even if they don't hurt anybody.

The Sibyl System is defended on the basis of how it "promotes healthy living". The same is true of the War on Drugs.

The Sibyl System is seen as a means to prevent serious crime. And you know what? Much the same is true of the War on Drugs.

And just like I would argue that the War on Drugs creates many societal problems (turning otherwise law-abiding drug-users into serious criminal elements due to the effects of incarceration), I can see much the same with the Sibyl System (turning otherwise law-abiding citizens into serious criminals due to how they snap under the weight of the system).


Quote:
Because, quite frankly, I would be somewhat disappointed if, in the end, all I got from this show is a dystopian view that is a no-brainer to hate.
The War on Drugs is a no-brainer to hate, but it's still there, and it's still causing societal problems every day. If Gen is making social commentary on foolish societal systems that nonetheless enjoy a lot of support, I think there's some value in that.


A big part of the reason why I've argued a lot against the Sibyl System is that I think there's a decent chance that Gen is aiming for a thematic point against societal systems similar to it, and/or that Gen is aiming for a thematic point against the premises behind such systems. Perhaps Psycho-Pass is actually a counter-argument against determinism. One of the most effective ways to argue against a philosophy is to show how, if you take that philosophy to its logical extreme, you get something that almost nobody would actually want.

To a certain extent, this is what Orwell did with 1984 - He shows how if you take the authoritarian propaganda-based nationalism that abounded throughout much of the era that Orwell lived in, and if you take it to its logical extreme, you get a rather chilling dystopia.

Personally, I find this no less compelling than an ambiguous work that just asks questions. In fact, having a narrative that effectively makes a thematic point against a certain prominent philosophy can be very, very compelling, imo.
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Old 2012-10-30, 18:36   Link #1407
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These days I'm really busy so I have no time to join actively the 3d and read each post, but at least I'll post some considerations
As I said before to me it's harder judging the single act of a character or such, because, so far it is questionable depending on each own believe, I can see that. So I'm questioning more on where this kind of system is leading the society to. I mean, my idea is that so far there's nothing really black or white yet (ok, to me there is, but let that aside) but there are symptoms that indicate a negative trend. And aside from the single event of killing a victim because she has been "infected" or a micro society in which bullying is encouraged as a mean to release the stress (but ultimately to keep up the productivity) from a wider perspective what I'm seeing is that this system is pushing people to stop thinking, this is the real problem there. People are (starting to) not questioning on what is right or what is wrong because something, the Sibyl system, started thinking for them. As a side effect obviously, not as a main goal.

Spoiler for the little parable of Arya and the SATNAV:


Here the moral. May I say that the SATNAV is evil? No. May I say that Arya is evil? Neither. But I can say that deep down Arya has lost something in the process. And if now Arya is dumber than before surely it's not a big deal, but what if this kind of process would apply to something different, something more deeper than going home? Like judging people. Today we would say, the Sibyl system is cool but I can judge people by myself. Tomorrow we would say, f**k I chose the wrong person last time, let's Sybil do it for us. And the day after? (pun half intended).

What I'm trying to say is that what is wrong is the direction of Psycho Pass evolution, and not something specific, not yet. But Akane will save all us

Somehow I can see some similarities between Psycho Pass and what Agent Smith told once:
Quote:
Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery.
Good purposes, but tragic outcome.
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Old 2012-10-30, 18:53   Link #1408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
If a system's recommendations are followed 98% or more of the time, are they still "mere" recommendations? Admittedly, that 98% figure is a hypothetical one, but this narrative is (so far) giving every implication that people typically follow Sibyl's "recommendations".

I think that you, and some others, are downplaying the influence that Sibyl holds over the world of Psycho-Pass.
Yes, it is a mere recommendation...
People don't follow it because the dominator doesn't give them choice, but because they decide to trust dominator recommendation...

I don't downplay Sibyl influence in world of Psycho-Pass, I know how severe it's influence is society (such as hue as the new beauty standard)...
What I don't agree is your statement that the human is forced by Sibyl...

Quote:
Several different choices? No, just two: Shoot to kill, or don't shoot at all. Those are the only choices that Dominator-users seem to have if the gun shifts to lethal mode.

In any event, your speedometer/Dominator analogy is not a good one for the simple reason that a speedometer doesn't strictly limit choices like this.
What choice does a person has with speedometer except keep the speed at red bar or slow down the speed to below the red bar? But this is the last time I will argue about the speedometer...

I see dominator as tool so I treat it as tool: To use it or to not use it. What other option do you have when you use a tool?
Also, there are no pressure directly from dominator itself, allow the human to choose...

Quote:
As for the whole "POOL with oil and lighter and such condition", you're missing my point there. My point is that Paralyzing shot is probably just as effective a means as negating that situational threat as Lethal shot is.

The person who was raped, her psychological state changed, and that is why her Crime Coefficient went up, in my opinion. Not because (or at least not just because) of the whole pool of oil situation.
You are the one that miss my point...
Dominator only see the Target's Threat at that point and change accordingly...
While the CC went up to 110, it only activate the Paralyzer Mode as Masaoka and Akane shown...

Quote:
Yeah, but most good marskmen using a normal hand-gun are usually able to shoot to subdue but not kill (shooting someone in the leg, for example, can do this if it's a good shot).
A good enforcer can calm the target and remove the threat the target may possess, thus re-activate the paralyzer mode just like Akane did in episode 1.
Much more 'humane' than shooting leg and crippling the target...
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Old 2012-10-30, 19:25   Link #1409
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Originally Posted by MarkS00N View Post
Yes, it is a mere recommendation...
People don't follow it because the dominator doesn't give them choice, but because they decide to trust dominator recommendation...
Here's something that I just thought of that I would encourage you, and other people reading this thread, to consider.

The Enforcers are treated as dogs, correct? That's how they're portrayed, as "hunting dogs".

Now, does a dog-owner give his dog recommendations, or does he give his dog commands?


Quote:
What I don't agree is your statement that the human is forced by Sibyl...
That's not my statement. But Sibyl does take options away.


Quote:
I see dominator as tool so I treat it as tool: To use it or to not use it. What other option do you have when you use a tool?
How many tools automatically change their own setting? Without allowing any manual override? And then give you spoken instructions on what you should do with it?

Is the Dominator the toll of the Enforcer, or is the Enforcer the toll of the Dominator? Maybe the gun's very name itself is a not-so-subtle hint from Gen...


Quote:
A good enforcer can calm the target and remove the threat the target may possess, thus re-activate the paralyzer mode just like Akane did in episode 1.
You write this as though what Akane did in Episode 1 was standard operating procedures.

But Akane's actions in Episode 1 clearly aren't standard operating procedures, or she never would have been questioned on them the way she was by Ginoza.
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Old 2012-10-30, 22:28   Link #1410
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You write this as though what Akane did in Episode 1 was standard operating procedures.

But Akane's actions in Episode 1 clearly aren't standard operating procedures, or she never would have been questioned on them the way she was by Ginoza.
True, but she didn't obey standard operating procedures starting from when she stopped Masaoka from Paralyzing the victim. If she had, then Shinya would not have been shot as well. Ginoza clearly does not give a shit about the victim, it seems that he was more angry with Akane about her shooting one of the hounds and not just Paralyzing her straight away. It's Ginoza who's questioning her here, not the Sibyl system.
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Old 2012-10-30, 22:37   Link #1411
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Here's something that I just thought of that I would encourage you, and other people reading this thread, to consider.

The Enforcers are treated as dogs, correct? That's how they're portrayed, as "hunting dogs".

Now, does a dog-owner give his dog recommendations, or does he give his dog commands?
Very nice of you to remember that...
Now do you remember what the inspector called? Handler.
So who handle the dog? The handler or the dominator?
Who gives commands and what gives recommendation?

Quote:
That's not my statement. But Sibyl does take options away.
So?
It is a problem for you but acceptable to me as long as Sibyl doesn't pressure (thus forced) the user.

Quote:
How many tools automatically change their own setting? Without allowing any manual override? And then give you spoken instructions on what you should do with it?

Is the Dominator the toll of the Enforcer, or is the Enforcer the toll of the Dominator? Maybe the gun's very name itself is a not-so-subtle hint from Gen...
So?
You've been clear that your problem is dominator take some choice from you and you won't take my argument that even if dominator take some choice, it isn't a problem because there are still several other choices...

What I've seen so far from dominator is merely the order of police's procedure:
1) Investigate whether the person is indeed the suspect (scan the target)
2) Apprehend the suspect (What Masaoka did is episode 2)
From here, dominator take over
3) Gives warning shot (Paralyzer)
4) Shoot the limb or tase (Paralyzer)
If the target project danger to police
5) Shoot to death (head or chest) (Lethal Eliminator)

Unless your police don't have these procedure, I can't see dominator become such a problem because what it does is actually normal.

Quote:
You write this as though what Akane did in Episode 1 was standard operating procedures.

But Akane's actions in Episode 1 clearly aren't standard operating procedures, or she never would have been questioned on them the way she was by Ginoza.
Here is the list of non-standard procedure Akane has done:
a) She prevent Masaoka shoot the paralyzer, thus
b) Alllow the woman's Target's Threat increased, which
c) Trigger the Lethal Eliminator due to her endanger Kogami, yet
d) She shot Kogami who fell on the pool of oil while the woman still have the lighter

If Kogami dead because the Lethal Eliminator shot to the woman, it will be Kogami's fault. But Akane's shot that paralyze Kogami can be seen as endanger Kogami even more, due Dominator's Target's Threat Judgement on the woman.

In my opinion, the reason Ginzo ask Kogami after Akane's explanation is because Kogami pretty much one of the factor in the incident...

At least that is my interpretation...
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Old 2012-10-31, 01:56   Link #1412
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
Spoiler for the little parable of Arya and the SATNAV:


Here the moral. May I say that the SATNAV is evil? No. May I say that Arya is evil? Neither. But I can say that deep down Arya has lost something in the process. And if now Arya is dumber than before surely it's not a big deal, but what if this kind of process would apply to something different, something more deeper than going home? Like judging people. Today we would say, the Sibyl system is cool but I can judge people by myself. Tomorrow we would say, f**k I chose the wrong person last time, let's Sybil do it for us. And the day after? (pun half intended).
Heh, that's a cute yet relevant analogy, though I'd add that it's hard to accuse your SATNAV of being evil, unless it specifically ordered you to plough through a line of kids crossing the road in the middle of a school zone.

I think most of us generally agree on the point that something went wrong somewhere in this alternative reality, and that it quite possibly started the same way you suggested: a cool new technology came along that was so useful, that made so many people's lives so much easier, which took away the anxiety and guesswork in deciding the careers that one is most suited for, that people began to rely too much on the system, thus creating a new set of problems to replace the ones that were eliminated.

It's a scenario that is very easy to relate to, because we can think of so many examples in our everyday lives. Your SATNAV system alone is a great example. This is the key reason I find the argument that the Sibyl System is inherently bad to be unconvincing. It's not so much the system that is at fault, but the habitual reliance on the system that is the root problem.

Going along with that line of reasoning, I've wondered if the reason for Akane's perfect hue despite the considerable stress and trauma she has experienced is the result of her attitude towards the Sibyl System. Unlike her peers who seem only too ready to push all decision-making — and subsequently all direct responsibility — to the system, Akane consciously thinks about her choices and strives to take active responsibility for the consequences of her decisions.

I'm sure most of us are familiar with people around us who constantly moan about how they suffer because of the system, refusing instead to take a hard look at themselves, at their own failings that led them to their present problems. Instead of thinking actively about what they need to do to dig themselves out of their hole, they waste time saying that there's no point in doing anything because the system will work against them anyway. In effect, they dig a deeper grave for themselves through their procrastination.

In other words, what I'm saying is that, in reality, many people are miserable because they wait for others to solve problems they should instead resolve on their own. There's a high chance that a similar situation exists in the Psycho-Pass universe. It's a matter of changing one's perspective to life. Faced with constraints, does one say, why bother doing anything, because the system won't let me do what I really want. Or does one instead think of making lemonade from lemons? I suspect that Akane is psychologically resilient because she consciously makes the best of whatever she is given, at a time when everyone else wishes for more incentives before they bother lifting a finger to work.

Does one deserve more without working hard to earn the reward?
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Old 2012-10-31, 02:12   Link #1413
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Well, Akane's been given a lot by the system. Starting with choices. It's not everyone who has them.

And you'd think people who can cruise into an ok life and never think about anything they don't want to think about (because Sibyl does it for them) would be the least stressed.
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Old 2012-10-31, 02:40   Link #1414
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Well, Akane's been given a lot by the system. Starting with choices. It's not everyone who has them.
That's an open question we don't yet have definitive answers for. We don't actually know if Akane was given a lot by the system, or whether she earned what she received. I'm willing to bet that she earned her rewards, based on what we've seen of her over three episodes. She's clearly not a passive individual, although whether that is a product of youthful idealism or an inherent personality trait remains to be seen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And you'd think people who can cruise into an ok life and never think about anything they don't want to think about (because Sibyl does it for them) would be the least stressed.
This apparent paradox was addressed in Ep2, the curious situation where, despite having the luxury of choice, Akane did not seem happier or more assured than her peers. Now, the interesting thing to ask is if it doesn't really matter whether or not one actually has a choice, why should people be bitter about the apparent lack of it?

I mean, if you're born in Rwanda in a time of genocide, what choice do you have but to make the best of what you have? Moaning about your lack of realistic choices isn't going to solve your life-or-death problems.
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Old 2012-10-31, 02:45   Link #1415
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
For all we know, employers may have little-to-no say in the matter.
WHERE is this implied? Seriously WHERE? Give me an exact quote where this is implied.

Then there's of course the fact that for some odd reason you chose to completely ignore the second half of my post. >_>




Re: Akane had choices VS normal people don't. It's the same in real life. Only the BEST get to choose their jobs. Those who suck are supposed settle for what they CAN get. This is reality. Some people become presidents, others become video store clerks.


I'm also getting tired of hearing this BS about recommendations taking the choice away. That's utter and complete BS. It's suddenly the system's fault because people CHOOSE to go with what the system says? That's like saying guns are at fault for making people CHOOSE to use them to shoot people. It must be nice, living a life where you can absolve yourself from all responsibility, saying crap like "X made me do it, I didn't have a choice". Don't give me that crap, you ALWAYS have a choice.


I'm sorry for getting a bit heated here, but the mere notion of escaping responsibility gets my blood boiling fast.
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Old 2012-10-31, 04:31   Link #1416
ttdestroy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
WHERE is this implied? Seriously WHERE? Give me an exact quote where this is implied.

Then there's of course the fact that for some odd reason you chose to completely ignore the second half of my post. >_>




Re: Akane had choices VS normal people don't. It's the same in real life. Only the BEST get to choose their jobs. Those who suck are supposed settle for what they CAN get. This is reality. Some people become presidents, others become video store clerks.


I'm also getting tired of hearing this BS about recommendations taking the choice away. That's utter and complete BS. It's suddenly the system's fault because people CHOOSE to go with what the system says? That's like saying guns are at fault for making people CHOOSE to use them to shoot people. It must be nice, living a life where you can absolve yourself from all responsibility, saying crap like "X made me do it, I didn't have a choice". Don't give me that crap, you ALWAYS have a choice.


I'm sorry for getting a bit heated here, but the mere notion of escaping responsibility gets my blood boiling fast.
I agree though the Dominator will remove the choice of paralyzer after it passes a certain limit, it does not pull the trigger. Whoever uses the Dominator still has an option: to not use it at all.
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Old 2012-10-31, 05:42   Link #1417
Quadratic
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Guys! GUYS! A pool of gasoline doesn't explode. It just burns, and the rape victim and Shinya would painfully burn. You guys are influenced too much by action films...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But the problem with these opportunities for mental health is that there's nothing discreet about them.

Recall how the criminal from the 1st episode felt that his reputation had been ruined simply from getting a bad reading. So whatever "therapy" entails in this world, it doesn't seem to be something you can enter into discreetly in this world (unlike seeing a mental health professional in the real world, which often can be done discreetly).

If the criminal in the first episode felt he could undergo this therapy without it destroying his reputation, maybe he would have done so. But alas, this option does not appear to be there.
Large scale management thinking: What's the percentage of people who will volunteeringly visit a mental health professional, especially those who really need to seek help? Hopefully someone will come in and provide some statistics, but even without numbers, I'm willing to bet the percentage is extremely low.
In fact, I would say our social culture pressures us to "keep our s*** under wraps" to the point where people fear seeking help because they think people will brand them as weak.
Heck, in my country there's a legendary rugby player who did an advertisement on admitting he had mental depression, expressed that it's ok to feel depressed, one shouldn't fear asking for help from friends, family and professional people. Sounds like it's time for social change.

Quote-unquote therapy only applies to latent criminals. At this point in time, there's still much speculation on what actually defines a latent criminal. Of the ones we've seen that has committed serious crimes are the rapist and the hacker, and the rape victim who was on the verge of killing herself and Shinya.
Normal therapy seems fine, as we see the rape victim isn't shown being tortured, sitting opposite to a doctor who's reading her medical data.

As for the rapist (Geez, notice how we don't even use his name? How cruel are we?!), I'm speculating (obviously):
1) The girls in ep 2 casually talked about the whole mental health subject to each other, so I don't think going to therapy is reputation breaking.

2)
Quote:
"Why would he avoid treatment long enough for his Hue to get this cloudy?"
"It's also possible that he used incompatible drugs."
There were drugs on the table, one was a red-white capsule. The same pill was seen outside with 3 shady guys (10:43 if you care).
Maybe medical science hasn't advanced as far as it should, maybe he decided to mix drugs, making things worst for himself, prior to getting flagged and let loose. I doubt we'll ever know what his real situation actually pushed him to get flagged in the first place, but obviously the social pressure of being branded a latent criminal made him go the whole way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think it was designed to make a better society, but my sense is that it was designed with a very "top-down" mentality behind it.

What I mean by that is that I can definitely see how "the 1%" would love Sibyl: It minimizes the chances of getting problematic employees, it is likely good for productivity, it keeps the masses under very tight control.

It was probably "sold" to the masses as a better way to fight crime, and also as a means to make people "happier" by finding psychological problems and correcting them.

But what it's actually done to Joe and Jane Average is take an awful lot of choice and self-empowerment away from them, leaving them with very little flexibility within the system itself. That's the impression I'm getting so far, anyway.
It's obviously a top-down mentality, because that's how large populations operate. It's a scaling problem.
Sibyl fails for small populations (eg. like your rural area) because there are chances no one is meets the requirement on some standard, so you heavily rely on each other, for better or worst.
Applying rural-style rules fails as a population grows. Same skill sets are common. As they say, "Too many cooks spoil the broth", and productivity drops or not as good as it should be. It's a chaotic mess.

What you sacrifice (choice, self-empowerment) is supposed to be gained in efficiency and productivity. Of course, this only works properly if there is a clear intent in what you're trying to produce.
The fact that we don't understand the "meaning of life" means we're slaving away for no reason and "scaling up" actually serves zero purpose. This is a real life issue that is apparent regardless of Sibyl or not (Yes, I'm aware how pessimistic that sounds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The internet is actually the opposite problem as Sibyl. The internet is a wild frontier that governments haven't found the ideal way to regulate yet. It's wild frontier nature is much of what makes the internet so much fun, but it's also what empowers cyber-bullying. Finding a way to keep the baby while throwing out the bath-water is the elusive trick that governments are still struggling with.
It's actually a similar problem, assuming Sibyl started off with nice intent.
The internet started based on a system of trust. Clearly, we weren't trustworthy which is why it's turned into a wild frontier that it is today.
It's clear society wasn't trustworthy with the data Sibyl calculated, which is why there are arguments about things like infringing privacy and the latent criminal reputation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Well, sure, but it's not like latent criminals are the only people that could do this job.
Ginoza says they're short on manpower.
Speculation is whether he meant at that time or all the time. Considering Akane was the only one out of 500 people, I'm banking on the latter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
But again, that's not Sibyl recommending 'please fight fire with fire', that's people going 'hey, let's risk the lives of "dogs" instead'.
Any particular quote or scene leading you to believe this?
I'm afraid you're going to need to quote or show a scene that says otherwise.
As I responded earlier to Anh_Minh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post
I'm aware Sibyl assigns some job aptitude ranking to everyone, but one of the friend mentions Akane was "an honor student who scored 700 points on the last exam.". Is this an old school style exam, or the actual value that Sibyl assigned? I'm under the impression it's the former for some reason, and is different to the Sibyl aptitude rank.
Akane also says her "job aptitude exceeded the Bureau's employment standards", so is it the factory's standards set too low that let him slip through the cracks?
Since I'm under the assumption Sibyl is a calculation type machine, it'll only give out numbers, and people have set guidelines the compare the numbers to.
Person A is a latent criminal. Person A has the job aptitude to work in CID.
Kagari given a choice of isolation or join CID. Speculation on my part that Sibyl gave out TWO "numbers" separately, and the people put the two together and that's his choice.

If you're going to counter argue that Sibyl's not a calculation type machine by using the Dominator as the example, it's obviously dependent on the numbers Sibyl gives out, but it in itself interprets how to change modes based on those numbers, which is why it locks itself if it cannot talk to Sibyl but still is able to authorize usage to Akane and company (ep 3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Here I go back to what I wrote in reply to TRL a few pages back - The author is choosing what to show us, and that has to be for a reason. If the author keeps showing us "the dark side of society", and never shows us much concrete reason to think "Hey, this fictional world isn't so bad after all", then that kind of suggests something, doesn't it?

We could be seeing Al Capones be brought to justice. Instead, we're seeing rape and bully victims be brought to justice...

Maybe Episode 4 will change that. But if we keep getting more of the same, that's rather suggestive of where the author is going with this story, imo...
It shows how society seems incapable of using Sibyl properly, how crimes persists in the face of Sibyl, and how the social culture is required to change to adapt to the new way of life.
Sybil may be "new" technology, but people haven't changed.
Misusing tools? Check.
Crime? Since the begining of time.
Adaptation? People smarten up and flourish or collapse under its own weight. Let's wait and see which way Psycho-pass wants to go with Sibyl in their lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I should state here that I live in a very rural area. There may well not have been "a more serious crime" elsewhere. But, because I'm in a rural area, we also don't have the same degree of cameras at play.

I will also admit that the fact that I live in a very rural area does impact my thinking. For example, Dengar arguing that humans don't have empathy is just utterly absurd to me, just based on what I see within my community on a regular basis (ex. if a member of the community has a serious disease, there is inevitably a fundraiser for that individual). Perhaps in a more urban area people don't care about one another as much, but that's definitely not the case in small towns, at least in my experience.
He's just exaggerating, but as I explained above, it's a scaling population issue.
I think you will have an understanding on what the problems are with the "solutions" (there's no silver bullet, obviously), which is exactly why a lot of the cold comments make sense.
Spoiler for Off topic:


In the end, I still think the people themselves hold a much larger responsibility than Sibyl.
Quote:
"Well I'll be. An Oracle by the Sibyl System"
"The Dominators are Sibyl's eyes."
"As always, the Dominators kick ass when they get serious."
"That which needs to be done is carried out by those capable of doing it. Such is the grace bestowed upon mankind by Sibyl."
"What a blessing the Sibyl System is, huh?"
Here we see the people are either personifying Sibyl, or treating it as something with god-like powers.
That's completely irresponsible.
It falls on the level of "if I don't understand it, it must be magic". Crunching numbers is not some magical/higher level power.
Anyone who's done some sort of computer support to friends and family, will know exactly what that means.


Anyway, I think the whole argument has been drawn out long enough for me, because short of getting a transcript of all 3 episodes and analysing each scene shot by shot, the rest is all speculation.
In fact I'm surprised 3 episodes managed to drag out this much for and against arguments in the first place, since I thought there wouldn't be much arguments in favor of Sibyl in the first place so I humorously decided to defend Sibyl.
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Old 2012-10-31, 07:53   Link #1418
Wild Goose
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
*snip*

As I've highlighted before, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Criminal Investigation Department's logo is adapted from the North American symbol for the medical profession. We are, in essence, being invited to ask: "What if an individual's potential for 'crime' can be detected in a way similar to how we diagnose disease?"

*snip*
That is an interesting perspective, and one that I hadn't considered. Then I went back, looked at their logo, and facepalmed at how I missed that.

When viewed in light of your POV - crime as a disease - the show starts to make a lot more sense.

Regards Sibyl, when viewed in the Crime as a Contagious Disease perspective, it then becomes a powerful and crucial tool to ensure that society is safe. I personally think that it has good uses, but as Masaoka pointed out, part of the problem young people have today is that they're not good on dealing with stress on their own because they're reliant on the system.

And then of course there's the usual cyberpunk genre convention where if something like Sibyl exists, sooner or later it's gonna end up tampered, sabotaged, or becomes self-aware and goes rampant.
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Old 2012-10-31, 11:17   Link #1419
Cosmic Eagle
宿命に全てを奪われた少女
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: 宿命と時間の巻きに
It's....actually possible to scan a bot...O__o


Sibyl really does nothing but put stereotypes everywhere....Like black comedy land or something...seriously, that overseer.....stereotypical sociopathic boss.

That he's even in that post is more than sign enough that Sibyl has seriously gone wrong.

Anyway, does anyone have a list of the different color hue readings?
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:44   Link #1420
Terizent
Nonsense!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It's....actually possible to scan a bot...O__o

Anyway, does anyone have a list of the different color hue readings?
I'm sure that if Sibyl can essentially calculate a human's potential in both careers and criminality, then it will be more than adept enough at predicting and analyzing robots.

As for the Hue Scans, the colors do not matter. It's the lightness/darkness of the colors.

See this picture here:http://i48.tinypic.com/ngsuti.png
There are different colors for every person, but there is one identifiable pattern, the hues that become darker over time are judged to be too "stressed out," and transferred to another workplace. Also apparent is that all the other "mentally healthy" workers have bright/light colors-seafoam green, pale blue, pink, lilac, etc.

Akane's Psycho-Pass (which seems to be synonymous with the result of your hue scan) was described to be powder blue, another light color.

On the other hand, the rapist in episode one had forest green and his victim was steel blue. Note that these are both dark colors; the rapist specifically says that their PP's have "become muddy."

The "hue," aka the approximation of the scan's result to a more basic color (eg. steel blue -> blue, or magenta ->l red) does not really matter. It is the lightness/darkness of the hue itself that measures a person's level of stress.

I believe that the hue may actually be an indicator of personality types. Similar to the blood type personality tests that the Japanese are so fond of, but actually correct because Sibyl "calculates" the color using the person's brain scan data.
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