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Old 2012-10-28, 22:05   Link #161
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Might I just note that this thread has become incredibly narrow over the past few pages? What started with a broad question about sexism and "action girls" has suddenly morphed into a narrow discussion of a few characters and shows. As someone who hasn't seen either these characters or these shows, I've lost pretty much all interest in this thread. I suspect I'm not alone.
I fully agree with you, sensei-jiisan!

Okay everyone, how about Haman Karn? She’s tough, a good leader, has great charisma, has a goal of herself (independent of any man), still feminine to some extent, has her own internal conflict, and (most importantly) she has no “fanservice shots” during the entirety of Zeta Gundam IIRC. Is that a good portrait of a proper non-sexist “female fighter” or “action girl”?
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Old 2012-10-29, 00:29   Link #162
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Honestly I think "action girl" stereotype is rather exploited than wholly sexist. The same can be said to so-called badass bishies in female-oriented shows such as Sebastian in Kuroshitsuji for example.
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Old 2012-10-29, 01:18   Link #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I fully agree with you, sensei-jiisan!

Okay everyone, how about Haman Karn? She’s tough, a good leader, has great charisma, has a goal of herself (independent of any man), still feminine to some extent, has her own internal conflict, and (most importantly) she has no “fanservice shots” during the entirety of Zeta Gundam IIRC. Is that a good portrait of a proper non-sexist “female fighter” or “action girl”?
Yea, you pretty much summarized why she's an excellent character and what good characters are made of, especially considering the era of anime she comes from. This kind of character is exceedingly rare in anime these days. I have a thing for ambitious people though.

Zeta Gundam's just a really good anime.
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Old 2012-10-29, 09:20   Link #164
SeijiSensei
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Originally Posted by TheZodiac View Post
Uhhh yeah of course, but exactly as she said ^^ "fanservice XD
I couldn't tell whether you directed that comment at me, but if so, as Vexx notes I'm definitely male. I'm more puzzled about your "fanservice" comment. My avatar shows thirteen-year-old Sheila, a witch from Mahou Shoujotai Arusu, riding her broom. A rather appropriate choice for Halloween, don't you think? By the way, there's not a hint of fanservice in that show.

I use the occasional male avatar and even a couple of animal ones, too. Here, have a look....
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:16   Link #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I fully agree with you, sensei-jiisan!

Okay everyone, how about Haman Karn? She’s tough, a good leader, has great charisma, has a goal of herself (independent of any man), still feminine to some extent, has her own internal conflict, and (most importantly) she has no “fanservice shots” during the entirety of Zeta Gundam IIRC. Is that a good portrait of a proper non-sexist “female fighter” or “action girl”?
There's one scene where Kamille put "pressure" on her and we see her in naked newtype time and a couple of scenes near the end in the movie theater that seem to linger on her legs while she's ducking in and behind some chairs in the 3 way fight with Scirroco and Char, but yeah other than that there's not much in Zeta at least. ZZ is kind of a different story though
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Old 2012-10-29, 16:27   Link #166
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Haman Karn is definitely one of the best. Ryougi Shiki is still my favourite "action girl" of all time though.
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Old 2012-10-30, 23:27   Link #167
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Haman Karn is definitely one of the best. Ryougi Shiki is still my favourite "action girl" of all time though.
Excellent example with Shiki.

Other "Action Girl" characters that are favorits, all of whom I don't see as overly sexualized or sexist:

Canaan from her self-titled series. Never really sexualized. OK, sure fans like to read yuri into her relationship with Maria, but her clothing are normal clothing, sensible for a mercenary working under cover in the civilian population to wear. Indeed her character is shaped much more by her tragic past as a child soldier.

By the same note, Roberta of Black Lagoon, while having the whole maid outfit thing going in the first season, it is semi-justified as a disguise. Like Canaan, Roberta is really shaped around her traumatic experiences of her past, as well as her attempts to redeem herself by protecting Garcia, the type of experiences that would likely cause similar trauma in a male or female.

Akemi Homura: I know she was on the list at the beginning, but I don't see her as a particularly sexist or sexualized. She doesn't have that much of an overly feminine side, save for her school uniform and mahou shoujo outfits. She always struck me as very strong, independent character, especially compared to Madoka. I always liked her, not only for her epic rocket spamming, but also for her never giving up in the face of adversity. Really, she was truly more a main character than Madoka.

Nanoha Takamachi has been discussed at length, feminine, even sexy, but that does not define her character, more so, she is defined by a sort of inherent sense of sympathy and caring. Exceedingly good natured, but for some reason never striking me as Mary Sue-ish.

will add more as I think of them.
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Old 2012-10-31, 15:28   Link #168
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So we've talked a lot about Japanese anime and what not, but what about Japanese games. Last night my friend directed me to a trailer for an upcoming game by Sega Treasure for the 3DS, which is getting a lot of good press for it's gameplay, however it also caught my attention because I think it's pertinent to the topic I created. Why don't I just post the trailer for now:



Some things I've already considered are how this game would fair here if released as is? Is the costume really necessary and how does the overall gameplay style mesh with the art design and choice of lead character? Also what does it say about Japanese games in general which already get a lot of flack from Western media for some of the content and costumes? How does it compare to Western games and their aesthetic and design at least when it comes to trailer presentation and appeal?
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Old 2012-10-31, 16:06   Link #169
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I'll pose the opposite question. Is it really necessary for Western games to exclude all colors that aren't shades of brown? Art choices are art choices. Gameplay doesn't get better or worse because of art choices, neither does the story.

Personally, I would love to play this


Quote:
(most importantly) she has no “fanservice shots” during the entirety of Zeta Gundam IIRC.
How is that most important? How is it important at all?

Sexy female characters -> Sexist? Why aren't sexualized male characters (Whoever the hell Taylor Lautner played in that Twilight thing, bishounen leads, etc for) considered sexist against guys? Because it isn't sexist.

You have attractive characters, what is wrong with them showing off how attractive they are? Even if you over do it until it's a major distraction from everything else, that's not sexism, it's bad directing.
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:04   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
I'll pose the opposite question. Is it really necessary for Western games to exclude all colors that aren't shades of brown? Art choices are art choices. Gameplay doesn't get better or worse because of art choices, neither does the story.

Personally, I would love to play this
I would have paid so much money for a Left For Dead mod or other zombie whatever with these four.
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:37   Link #171
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
I'll pose the opposite question. Is it really necessary for Western games to exclude all colors that aren't shades of brown? Art choices are art choices. Gameplay doesn't get better or worse because of art choices, neither does the story.
That's mostly only true of the myriad of Call of Duty FPS clones and Xbox360 games that have convinced people that if they want their games to sell and have cred that they need to all be gritty, gray dreary post apocalyptic settings with caricatures of what I suppose are supposed to be hard men. I think it really hit critical mass with the Gears of War franchise though which I simply could not get into or take even remotely seriously because it always felt like it was trying way to hard at all of the above. IMO it's all become a sad self-parody and it only took one generation for it to happen too.

Quote:
Personally, I would love to play this
I'd rather not for personal reasons.


Quote:
How is that most important? How is it important at all?

Sexy female characters -> Sexist? Why aren't sexualized male characters (Whoever the hell Taylor Lautner played in that Twilight thing, bishounen leads, etc for) considered sexist against guys? Because it isn't sexist.

You have attractive characters, what is wrong with them showing off how attractive they are? Even if you over do it until it's a major distraction from everything else, that's not sexism, it's bad directing.
Well going back to my above post as an example it's my personal opinion that Code of Princess is a little excessive in it's portrayal of the lead at least from the perspective of seeing it in the trailer. You can have anime girl with sword in beat em up RPG game and she can even be sexy and it's all well and good, but yeah I don't know about that get up. It kind of goes back to what I was saying above with regard to Gears of War and the feeling of trying too hard to portray a certain appeal.
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:56   Link #172
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
That's mostly only true of the myriad of Call of Duty FPS clones and Xbox360 games that have convinced people that if they want their games to sell and have cred that they need to all be gritty, gray dreary post apocalyptic settings with caricatures of what I suppose are supposed to be hard men. I think it really hit critical mass with the Gears of War franchise though which I simply could not get into or take even remotely seriously because it always felt like it was trying way to hard at all of the above. IMO it's all become a sad self-parody and it only took one generation for it to happen too.


Its gotten so bad, I start dragging out the "closet man-love" memes on all this "men only" gamestering.
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Old 2012-10-31, 18:23   Link #173
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its gotten so bad, I start dragging out the "closet man-love" memes on all this "men only" gamestering.
Is it wrong that I found the Soap/Cpt. Price man love thing in the second game to be the most meaningful and "human interest" part of the story? I mean when Captain Price punched that Sam Elliot sound alike general and Soap threw that knife into his eye in slow motion....they did it all for each other man! *single tear*
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Old 2012-10-31, 19:17   Link #174
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Action girls huh? I'd pick Inner Moka from R+V (she is not a fanservice girl. she fights to protect others) and Revy from Black Lagoon. They both aren't sexist at all.
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Old 2012-10-31, 19:50   Link #175
SeijiSensei
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I don't know if I'd call Revy "sexist." That is a term I usually apply to abstract concepts like ideas or social institutions or, in this case, modes of story-telling. Revy certainly is highly sexualized. Would she be as compelling if she wore a more modest dress or a body suit and did not flash so much skin? I think it would be hard to argue that Revy was not drawn to appeal to male readers/viewers. Still, as Jessica Rabbit says, "I'm not bad; I'm just drawn this way."
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Old 2012-10-31, 20:01   Link #176
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I highly doubt she was drawn like that for men. Most girls who tend to be "bad" dress like that for free movement. I honestly think that's just how Revy is accustomed dressing up. Eda for example is just like her. Each character has their own personal style from my perspective.
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Old 2012-10-31, 20:26   Link #177
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
How is that most important? How is it important at all?

Sexy female characters -> Sexist? Why aren't sexualized male characters (Whoever the hell Taylor Lautner played in that Twilight thing, bishounen leads, etc for) considered sexist against guys? Because it isn't sexist.

You have attractive characters, what is wrong with them showing off how attractive they are? Even if you over do it until it's a major distraction from everything else, that's not sexism, it's bad directing.
I never said that sexy female (or male) characters= Sexist. Please don't put words on my mouth. Did you read my overall post at all?

You know, there’s a difference between portraying a character’s beauty and focusing on a certain “private” areas. By “fanservise shot”, I didn’t mean “beauty shot”. Fanservice shot is more “perverted” in nature. An example of these would be a scene during characters’ conversation where they didn’t focus on the female’s face or overall body, but focusing on their breast, thigh, crotch, or belly button instead. I don’t know about you, but I think that kinda shots are belittling the female characters by treating them like a mere sexual object (the same thing also applied to male characters). That’s why I consider the absence of “fanservice shots” important (if not the most important) aspect of a true respectable Action Girl character.
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Old 2012-10-31, 21:00   Link #178
Random32
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I never said that sexy female (or male) characters= Sexist. Please don't put words on my mouth. Did you read my overall post at all?
I read it. Seems like I interpreted something wrong. Maybe there is something above that would have put it all into context, but I stopped following this thread when the discussion started going nowhere and am only coming back in because I'm sorta bored, and I really don't want to read all the circles this thread has gone in if I don't really really have to. Sorry.

This is what I read about character Haman Karn
Quote:
She’s tough, a good leader, has great charisma, has a goal of herself (independent of any man), still feminine to some extent, has her own internal conflict, and (most importantly) she has no “fanservice shots” during the entirety of Zeta Gundam IIRC. Is that a good portrait of a proper non-sexist “female fighter” or “action girl”?
From that:
1. In the eyes of the post's author, the most important part of having a proper non-sexist action girl, is lack of fanservice.
2. Further more, the rest of the traits that I think define a proper non-sexist action girl, the strong personality and good writing, are explicitly stated to be less important than lack of fanservice in making a character a proper non-sexist action girl.
3. From that I think it is reasonable to assume that the author of the post thinks that fanservice (portraying sexy female characters) -> sexist.

Quote:
You know, there’s a difference between portraying a character’s beauty and focusing on a certain “private” areas. By “fanservise shot”, I didn’t mean “beauty shot”.
Nor do I. By "fanservice," I meant "sexy shots" not "beauty shots."

Quote:
An example of these would be a scene during characters’ conversation where they didn’t focus on the female’s face or overall body, but focusing on their breast, thigh, crotch, or belly button instead.
So we agree. Just used different terminology.

Quote:
I don’t know about you, but I think that kinda shots are belittling the female characters by treating them like a mere sexual object (the same thing also applied to male characters).
And here we disagree. I do not believe that those shots are belittling to the characters they are applied to. Images of attractive shirtless men do not belittle the men they feature, it shows that they are attractive and emphasizes that. The same with women.

If their attractiveness is the ONLY thing being emphasized, that is sexist, but if it is one part of many, I really don't see a problem with that.
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Old 2012-10-31, 21:11   Link #179
Sheba
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Agent Aika is the perfect illustration of what Obelisk tries to convey. Aika herself is a okay character, and the series would have been okay as a b movie style action OAV. But the staff's constant obsession with ass and crotch shots just killed. There is nothing wrong with eye candy, I mean I like my scantily clad sword girls in bikini armor as much I love dignified women in full plate like Hildegard from Soul Calibur, but too much of those service shots just kills it as surely as the excessive use of any tropes.
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Old 2012-10-31, 21:26   Link #180
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Originally Posted by Random32 View Post
If their attractiveness is the ONLY thing being emphasized, that is sexist, but if it is one part of many, I really don't see a problem with that.
You know, I think we agree on the same thing. We just have a different definition of "fanservice shots". What I quoted from you is how I define "fanservice shots". I'm not anti-"characters being portrayed as sexy individuals".

Also @Sheba. Thanx for making my point clearer .
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