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Old 2012-10-31, 12:07   Link #5161
Soaring Griffin
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
The Orb Fleet was attacking the Minerva. They dug their own grave, Shinn was merely protecting his allies and friends from HOSTILE ENEMIES that REFUSED to relent no matter what and only left after Shinn kicked their asses yet again.
Most of the Orb soldiers didn't want to be there but had to because it was their job and Yuna thought it was a good idea to help the the EA. Saying that it's their own fault and Kira should just let his countrymen die like that, I'm sorry is beyond stupid.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
While Kira, being the self-righteous moron he was in Destiny, decided that the Minerva were aggressors too(Hence is illogical arguments against Athrun and the fact that he was only there because Cagalli was crying) and were just as bad as the Feds and Orb forces despite the fact that the Minerva wasn't trying to get into battles and was only defending themselves for the most part at that point.
Kira's speech wasn't about the Minerva being the aggressors, it was about the fact the Orb was in a battle that they shouldn't have been in and that was what Cagalli was trying to prevent. Also Kira attacked Minerva at the same time so they would kill Orb soldiers.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Don't even compare what 00 did to what Kira did. At least they had a plan other than "Let's randomly cruise around and attacked everyone no matter the battle just because we can with no real en game in mind". Especially when 00 started with them just evening out the sides and mostly just attcked the aggressors unless t he defenders gave chase after the attacking force was dealt with. Kira though was more than content pummeling both forces instead of just taking out the attacking force first and only attacking the defending force if they become the aggressors.
Thing is Kira and co. weren't trying to be celestial being, they were just trying to keep the Orb fleet from fighting in a battle they shouldn't have been in and being destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
That's just one of the MANY differences as to why 00 handled it far better than Kira. Furthermore Kira was dumbfounded and shocked that no one would listen to an outsider and that they treated him as an unwanted enemy force which he was. At least the 00 cast knew the world would hate them for doing such things but they didn't care nor were they shocked when everyone ganged up on them. They also had a real plan unlike Kira.
Again it was only in the one game that Kira would randomly intervene and shout stop fighting.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
And no, he didn't want to fight initially at all, he was only there because he wanted Cagalli to stop crying(Hell he even supported Cagalli despite Athrun being more than justfied in his rage that she almost got married without even telling him).
Athrun knew that Cagalli was engaged to Yuna before that.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
He thought that he had he yelled loud enough and brought Cagalli, whom he stole away illegally, that strangers would listen to him.It's only after that failed that he threw his whole wanting to stop the fighting thing out the window and started attacking EVERYONE and even got those like Heine killed.
Kira didn't shout anything during those battles, and actually it was Cagalli's idea to intervene and tell the Orb forcees to "stop fighting" and go home, but when that didn't work Kira decided that instead of watching the blood bath he would try to lower the number of casualties.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Kira, like Athrun, had no idea what he wanted. At least Athrun tried to work with the system while Kira just kept trying whatever he could to work against everyone so that his way was the only way in the end.
You've gravly miss understood Kira's intent during the show.

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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Not once did Kira even try to understand any of the forces or to see how the Destiny plan would work. As soon as Durandal revealed it and that it was woring on mars Kira immediately reached the conclusion that Durandal must die because he actually had a decent solution to ending all fighting. While the only thing Kira had was "Keep everything the same, we'll just fight anyone that acts up or tries to change things".
I'm sorry but a genetic determinism society is not a good idea when it violates peoples right to choose and Durandal didn't say anything about it working on mars. I've also read part part of the Delta astray manga and it said the mars colony implemented it to make colonization easier, so it would make Durandal kind of an idiot to think it would end all wars on earth.
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Old 2012-10-31, 12:18   Link #5162
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Wait, what is this about Kira telling people to stop fighting in the game(s)? Is this a Gundam game or a SRW game?
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Old 2012-10-31, 12:31   Link #5163
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Wait, what is this about Kira telling people to stop fighting in the game(s)? Is this a Gundam game or a SRW game?
In Dynasty warriors gundam 2 Kira would constantly yell stop fighting and such while trying to be a poor mans celestial being, I haven't played any SRW games so I don't know if he was like that in those games.
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Old 2012-10-31, 12:43   Link #5164
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Interesting, I guess they couldn't come up with other dialogs for Kira.
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Old 2012-10-31, 12:44   Link #5165
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It was probably meant as a "Take that" at Kira in Destiny, which seems to happen pretty often among the games.
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Old 2012-10-31, 12:59   Link #5166
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That's a strange way of doing it.
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Old 2012-10-31, 13:08   Link #5167
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Because the people behind the games, can also be Fans, Haters and Fanboys of series and characters, just like any other person. And this is just their way of getting back or taking shots.

Prime example of this being "SRW Z"
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Old 2012-10-31, 13:36   Link #5168
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I'm pointing out the fact that putting words in Kira's mouth only shows that what they supposedly hate about Kira (if that is the case) is only their own imagination.

In other words, they don't really know what they hate, and it only serves to misinform other haters, which makes these other people look foolish when they try to use that in a discussion about the anime.

So, if that's supposed to be a "Take that" at Kira, I would still say that it's a strange way of doing it.
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Old 2012-10-31, 13:49   Link #5169
Znozzy
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related to both SEED/DESTINY and gundam in general

Am i the only one whos bothered by the fact that mobile suits are never animated using most of their thrusters while flying? one example is the strke rogue before the takemikazushi is shot down, it's hovering with only the Aile Strikers thrusters.

It happens to other suits aswell, hell, you rarely see a mobile suit use all it's thrusters and verniers, it's always one or two but never all of them ;;
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Old 2012-10-31, 14:07   Link #5170
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
related to both SEED/DESTINY and gundam in general

Am i the only one whos bothered by the fact that mobile suits are never animated using most of their thrusters while flying? one example is the strke rogue before the takemikazushi is shot down, it's hovering with only the Aile Strikers thrusters.

It happens to other suits aswell, hell, you rarely see a mobile suit use all it's thrusters and verniers, it's always one or two but never all of them ;;
I would say bad animation or maybe they're just bad at piloting?

CE thruster tech is much different than UC tech. In UC, mobile suits that aren't in a transformed air mode can't stay in the air unless its later UC or some exceptions but in CE, mobile suits can stay in the air with flight packs or nuclear powered.

If comparing cross universe, this would mean that CE mobile suits would have stronger thrusters than UC mobile suits because they are able to stay in the air. However it merely seems like different universes with different laws of physics.

I mean how could the Unicorn's thrusters be weaker than the Strike?
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Old 2012-10-31, 14:11   Link #5171
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Originally Posted by monster View Post
I'm pointing out the fact that putting words in Kira's mouth only shows that what they supposedly hate about Kira (if that is the case) is only their own imagination.

In other words, they don't really know what they hate, and it only serves to misinform other haters, which makes these other people look foolish when they try to use that in a discussion about the anime.

So, if that's supposed to be a "Take that" at Kira, I would still say that it's a strange way of doing it.
And it's messing with my own memories of Destiny. Playing DW2 with SF made me forget and think that Kira really did say stop fighting all the time for a while.

I guess the haters' plan is working.

Really hope that they'll release a good DESTINY HD REMASTER to watch, so a lot of the issues in this thread can be resolved.
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Old 2012-10-31, 14:50   Link #5172
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And it's messing with my own memories of Destiny. Playing DW2 with SF made me forget and think that Kira really did say stop fighting all the time for a while.

I guess the haters' plan is working.

Really hope that they'll release a good DESTINY HD REMASTER to watch, so a lot of the issues in this thread can be resolved.
The biggest issue Destiny has is its story past episode 12, a HD remaster wont fix that.
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Old 2012-10-31, 14:51   Link #5173
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And it's messing with my own memories of Destiny. Playing DW2 with SF made me forget and think that Kira really did say stop fighting all the time for a while.

I guess the haters' plan is working.
Also add in the fact that the DWG series is a poor representation of the respected series in general. The only true, down to earth, most accurate representation of characters and their series is DWG1. 2 and 3, just went < ^ > all over the place, and just became ridiculous. SF DRAGOON'S are used as a physical attack for god sakes.

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Really hope that they'll release a good DESTINY HD REMASTER to watch, so a lot of the issues in this thread can be resolved.
Nah, needs a Re-vision or Remake. Destiny is completely different then Seed, when it comes to stock footage. There's just simply too much. Can they really create New Animation (for at least) most of the stock footage scene's? No. And they have not showed, that their capable of it.

Story and Stock Footage,
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Old 2012-10-31, 15:35   Link #5174
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Most of the Orb soldiers didn't want to be there but had to because it was their job and Yuna thought it was a good idea to help the the EA. Saying that it's their own fault and Kira should just let his countrymen die like that, I'm sorry is beyond stupid.


Kira's speech wasn't about the Minerva being the aggressors, it was about the fact the Orb was in a battle that they shouldn't have been in and that was what Cagalli was trying to prevent. Also Kira attacked Minerva at the same time so they would kill Orb soldiers.


Thing is Kira and co. weren't trying to be celestial being, they were just trying to keep the Orb fleet from fighting in a battle they shouldn't have been in and being destroyed.


Again it was only in the one game that Kira would randomly intervene and shout stop fighting.


Athrun knew that Cagalli was engaged to Yuna before that.


Kira didn't shout anything during those battles, and actually it was Cagalli's idea to intervene and tell the Orb forcees to "stop fighting" and go home, but when that didn't work Kira decided that instead of watching the blood bath he would try to lower the number of casualties.


You've gravly miss understood Kira's intent during the show.


I'm sorry but a genetic determinism society is not a good idea when it violates peoples right to choose and Durandal didn't say anything about it working on mars. I've also read part part of the Delta astray manga and it said the mars colony implemented it to make colonization easier, so it would make Durandal kind of an idiot to think it would end all wars on earth.
Want doesn't matter, they still choose to fight the Minerva despite it wishing for no hostilities. They even attacked Cagalli, despite knowing who she was, because Yuna said so. That shows that they have no back bone and all of them deserves the fate they dug for themselves. The only crime is that Shinn didn't get a chance to kill the ones that later defected after attacking the Minerva and Cagalli.

Who is Kira to decide that? He has NO SWAY in Orb and last time I checked he kidnapped Cagalli. Had Cagalli remained in Orb and was married than Orb wouldn't have been there at all. The whole reason Orb was there was because of Kira's selfish actions. Sure Yuna was a creep but he shouldn't blame Orb for falling in a state that he allowed just because he didn't want to see Cagalli forced into a marriage, which she agreed to for the good of Orb, and because she was crying.

No they weren't. That's why Kira attacked everyone in the immediate area without a second thought when Orb told Cagalli to go away.

No, he literally said Stop Fighting in the Anime more than once. The games just enhanced that because really that's what Kira's actions in Destiny were, Stop Fighting! His only Stop Fighting action that was justified was the unwarranted attack on Berlin. Even than Kira initially attacked everyone and didn't team up with Shinn right away.

You are being too dense. Of course he knew, yet he gave her a ring and told her before he rejoined ZAFT that he didn't like it and he wasn't going to let it stand. Than Cagalli's wedding is suddenly rushed forward, when Athrun was gone, and he was never even told. Athrun had to find out about the wedding through other means.

Considering that Cagalli and him were an item she had an obligation to tell him it wasn't going to work. Instead she decided that Athrun didn't deserve to know since he wouldn't approve and would talk her out of that stupidity because Cagalli, for some reason, was pushed into believing she was worthless and that things would be better for Orb if she married Yuna. Remember, Cagalli could have easily refused and Yuna pushed very hard to get her to commit fully.

Yeah, right. Kira approved of such a dumb plan because of Cagalli. Had he not kidnapped her that plan would never have been made and Cagalli wouldn't have been made to cry or dragged onto the battlefield again. After all, Cagalli was already shown to resist the pressures of Orb to intervene and as soon as she was gone Orb was taken over by Yuna. All because of Kira's short sightedness.

And you didn't explain a thing about him while I have explained many times on what Kira's intent was and his actions in the series have proven my point. Tell me, if you're so knowledgeable than what is his intent? No reason to hide behind "You don't understand" and than not elaborate.

And who are you to say that? It was working on Mars and Kira had no other solution than to maintain the status queue which has resulted in multiple bloody wars, multiple nukings, and people still hating each other even after Destiny due to their differences and jealousy as the Astray series has shown. Kira's way simply isn't any better. Yet instead of even considering it Kira was right on board with attacking the Leader of ZAFT and having him killed to shut him up.

And no, Durandal wasn't an idiot. He knew that no one as powerful as the Feds would join with his plan willingly at first. Just like all Revolutions the ones in power refuse to accept change unless they have no choice. That is why Durandal was right, after Logos was taken out, to suggest that he will use force if those that are unwilling to even give this a try choose to fight and resist. This is no different from any forces, especially not the Lacus Clyne force which was choosing to fight against those that resisted against what they wanted.

So Kira was not in the right since he subjected himself to the same methods as Durandal to bring about the future he wanted. The difference is Durandal isn't going to pretend he's somehow the supreme being of morality and knows that many people will die to bring change. While Kira just wants the fighting to stop and doesn't want anyone to die which is completely naive.

Destiny Kira just regressed since by the end of SEED he had already come to terms that by fighting not everyone will listen to him and people will die yet in Destiny he's utterly shocked that people are angry that he butts in randomly and when he tries to get them to do what he desires or when people start dying due to his "Interventions". Hell, none of his arguments with Athrun were even logical and were just forced so they could have the Kira vs Athrun dynamic again like at the start of SEED.

Last edited by Destined_Fate; 2012-10-31 at 15:58.
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:08   Link #5175
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Want doesn't matter, they still choose to fight the Minerva despite it wishing for no hostilities. They even attacked Cagalli, despite knowing who she was, because Yuna said so. That shows that they have no back bone and all of them deserves the fate they dug for themselves. The only crime is that Shinn didn't get a chance to kill the ones that later defected after attacking the Minerva and Cagalli.
Shows the importance of leadership, right? Yes, once Orb sided with EA, there was no turning back. Otherwise, they would then face hostalities from BOTH EA and Zaft. When you are in a situation like that, you'll find that even if you want stop the fight. You'll see there is nothing you can do, and even if you do, there was no gurantee your fellow comrades would do the same. I'm sure this was in the mind of every Orb soldier there.

Why did the ones who did defect and joined with the Arcangel and Cagali have to die? They aren't really the ones who attacked Cagali. They were the ones who hated the situation and actually took action.

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Who is Kira to decide that? He has NO SWAY in Orb and last time I checked he kidnapped Cagalli. Had Cagalli remained in Orb and was married than Orb wouldn't have been there at all. The whole reason Orb was there was because of Kira's selfish actions. Sure Yuna was a creep but he shouldn't blame Orb for falling in a state that he allowed just because he didn't want to see Cagalli forced into a marriage, which she agreed to for the good of Orb, and because she was crying.
No, things wouldn't have changed if Cagalli stayed. That's why Kira and Arcangel acted and go her out of there, before the marriage actually happened and be harder to undo. Cagalli, from the stress of leading a nation, was tired and easily taken advantage of by the Serans. If Kira hadn't come and got her, she would have been reduced to figurehead, being a puppet for Yuna. Once surronded by friends and learning about the world's current affairs with them through news channels and information networking was she able to get back her vigor.

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No they weren't. That's why Kira attacked everyone in the immediate area without a second thought when Orb told Cagalli to go away.
Kira fought both sides to reduce the numeber of fighters causing both sides to retreat. The result wasn't what anyone wanted even Kira. Milly attested to that when talking with Atrun the next episode. However, with the current situation, not much else could have been done.

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No, he literally said Stop Fighting in the Anime more than once. The games just enhanced that because really that's what Kira's actions in Destiny were, Stop Fighting! His only Stop Fighting action that was justified was the unwarranted attack on Berlin. Even than Kira initially attacked everyone and didn't team up with Shinn right away.
Twice I believe IN THE PREVIOUS SEASON. One when trying to get both Zaft and EA out of range of the Cyclops system in Alaska. The second suring the final battle after Genisis first fired. He has never said it once in Destiny. You like to bring up showing hard evidence for facts. Go though Destiny and find one occurence in which he said that. That'll bring this topic to a close. Though I doubt you'll find it.

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You are being too dense. Of course he knew, yet he gave her a ring and told her before he rejoined ZAFT that he didn't like it and he wasn't going to let it stand. Than Cagalli's wedding is suddenly rushed forward, when Athrun was gone, and he was never even told. Athrun had to find out about the wedding through other means. Considering that Cagalli and him were an item she had an obligation to tell him it wasn't going to work. Instead she decided that Athrun didn't deserve to know since he wouldn't approve and would talk her out of that stupidity because Cagalli, for some reason, was pushed into believing she was worthless and that things would be better for Orb if she married Yuna. Remember, Cagalli could have easily refused and Yuna pushed very hard to get her to commit fully.
First of, no need to attack someone. Second, she had no means to tell Athrun because he was away, and had no means to know where exactly he was. As you said, she was not in the right state of mind. She was constantly being pushed into a corner by Yuna.

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Yeah, right. Kira approved of such a dumb plan because of Cagalli. Had he not kidnapped her that plan would never have been made and Cagalli wouldn't have been made to cry or dragged onto the battlefield again. After all, Cagalli was already shown to resist the pressures of Orb to intervene and as soon as she was gone Orb was taken over by Yuna. All because of Kira's short sightedness.
As I said before, nothing would have changed even if Cagali was there. Yuna was constantly pushing her towards his ideals and weakening her will. If Kira had not gotten her out of there when he did, Cagali would be in even worse shape.

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And you didn't explain a thing about him while I have explained many times on what Kira's intent was and his actions in the series have proven my point. Tell me, if you're so knowledgeable than what is his intent? No reason to hide behind "You don't understand" and than not elaborate.
Kira's intent was many things. One was to find the truth about the attack on Lacus by Zaft. Another was like everyone's else to quickly end the war. Of course, he, Murrue and the rest of the Arcangel crew had no idea where to start hence their actions and movements were very limited, mostly hiding and gathering information. Going to the Earth Alliance was big no. Zaft couldn't be trusted since the attack on Lacus. They couldn't end the war by themselves due to insufficient numbers. Another reason was limit the number of casualties in Orb from fighting Zaft. That's the whole reason Arcangel intervened in those two conflicts to stop the fighting. If not, limit the casualties and force both sides to retreat. Lastly, once Cagali had her vigor and resolve back, take her back to Orb. Those last two were pretty much laid out before them due to the state of affairs.

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And who are you to say that? It was working on Mars and Kira had no other solution than to maintain the status queue which has resulted in multiple bloody wars, multiple nukings, and people still hating each other even after Destiny due to their differences and jealousy as the Astray series has shown. Kira's way simply isn't any better. Yet instead of even considering it Kira was right on board with attacking the Leader of ZAFT and having him killed to shut him up.
You seem to be one of the Destiny plans supporters, so I am not going to go much into that. However, you said to Soaring Griffin "Who areyou to say a genetic determinism society is wrong?" Well, who are you to say that it's right. Just because it worked on Mars, doesn't mean it'll work on other planets/ colonies. Durandel was forcing his plan on everyone. Kira, Artrun and everyone from Arcangel, Eternal and Orb chose to stop him. It is as simple as that. Kira and the others advocated for everyone to be able to make a choice.

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So Kira was not in the right since he subjected himself to the same methods as Durandal to bring about the future he wanted. The difference is Durandal isn't going to pretend he's somehow the supreme being of morality and knows that many people will die to bring change. While Kira just wants the fighting to stop and doesn't want anyone to die which is completely naive. Destiny Kira just regressed since by the end of SEED he had already come to terms that by fighting not everyone will listen to him and people will die yet in Destiny he's utterly shocked that people are angry that he butts in randomly and tries to get them to do what he desires. Hell, none of his arguments with Athrun were logical and were just forced so they could have the Kira vs Athrun dynamic again like at the start of SEED.
Did Kira use a doomsday weapon to wipe out everyone on the moon colony? I doubt only EA solders were killed in that blast. When has Kira acted shocked in Destiny? (Don't bring up the beam saber dodge from Shinn)In addition, Kira doesn't think of himself as the this "supreme being of morality". This is one of the biggest misconceptions I have come across.

Regarding the destiny plan, Yes, he knows what they are doing maybe selfish, he even asked Athrun and he replied basically probably so. However, this was a plan made to eliminate choice from life made by a man who wants to make a system play the role of God. All people would have is a feeling of mere existence. Plus, even with the goal of eliminating war, it would have not stopped conflicts because every now and then, rebellions would rise to end this way of life, because plenty of people would not want this.
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:10   Link #5176
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Kira said stop fighting a grand total of twice in both Seed and Destiny. Specifically Seed first when Yzak was ignoring the warning about Cyclops to try to attack him, and then immediately after Genesis is first fired, when he's stopping two raging Zaft pilots from basically executing a helpless Strike Dagger who's pilot is begging for mercy (a good place to say that actually.)

If you mean just saying "Stop" he said that a few times, notably during Stella's Destroy rampage as she kept blowing stuff up.

Otherwise no. In his grand total of 2 interventions in Destiny, Kira said not a word to anybody but Athrun, who was just being told to stay out of his way. He did not tell Orb, or Zaft to stop fighting. He was totally silent to them. Cagalli did. But not Kira.

Using DWG is a terrible character refrence. They exaggerate everyones character there. Kamille doesn't constantly rant that he has a mans name either (he says that once or twice, at the very beginning of the show but its quickly dropped)
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Old 2012-10-31, 17:35   Link #5177
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False, ZAFT was not poised to invade ORB at all even after they kicked out the Minerva. Only the Feds would have considered a attack and even than they would rather not fight Orb since they were already fighting a losing war against ZAFT yet again and the fact that Orb had that point had a strong defensive military force.

They did nothing, that alone is a crime in of itself. They allowed this to occur despite knowing, without a doubt, that it was Cagalli yet none of them stopped the attack or vouched for her. Cagalli, even if kidnapped, was still their leader and has authorithy over Yuna especially since the marriage never went through. So basically they're just as bad as Kira for letting events get as bad as they did.

False, Cagalli was the sole reason that Orb hadn't joined the Feds officially and weren't actively hounding the Minerva or joining the war effort. Even if she was married she would still have fought to keep Orb out of the war which she believed would be possible if she was wed to Yuna now to calm the tempers of Orb. Also, where was Kira during all this? He knew how bad things were for Cagalli but he choose to do NOTHING at all until Cagalli was convinced to accept the marriage.

More could have been done. Kira could have announced that he will attack the aggressors and that he doesn't want the fighting to continue after they're beaten back or he will turn on the Minerva too for prolonging the conflict. Had he done that I'm sure Athrun and Shinn wouldn't have snapped on Kira for showing up(And would have gladly accepted his help since before Shinn went badass mode they were getting hammered hard), acting holier than thou, than judging everyone as aggressors and thus to be treated equally when he was wrong about the situation completely.

Yes he said it somewhere(I'm not shifting through 50 episodes of Destiny again until the Remaster since I'm already busy as is with other matters and barely have the time off work to watch a new SEED Remaster episode, Muv-Luv, and the such over a week) and you cannot deny that all of his actions were based off Stop Fighting and his utter naivety over it all when no one stopped(Why should they listen to an outsider that isn't involved?) and people still died no matter what he did. And no, you don't get to dictate when a topic is closed or not.

False, she had plenty of means. She was still the Leader of Orb and she knew exactly where the Minerva was. It's not like the Minerva made it hard to find out where they were considering how fast everyone seems to find them and that they were plastered all over the news due to the actions of the Minerva and Shinn. Furthermore even if she had no means, which she did, than that doesn't excuse the fact that she didn't even bother to try nor did she try to explain to Athrun(Or APOLOGIZE) when Kira and her met up with him. Cagalli handled her marriage and her promise with Athrun very poorly, there's no denying it.

What proof do you have on that? Orb was out of the war because of Cagalli who was fighting all by herself because Athrun left to try and make a real difference and end a war that Cagalli didn't desire. Kira should have supported her yet in Destiny he doesn't even interact with her nor does he offer a shoulder for her to lean on until after he kidnaps her. Had he actually been a brother to her and helped to at least let her vent and boost her confidence than things wouldn't have gotten all that bad for Cagalli who was literally alone without Athrun at her side(Who at least bothered to take up a fake name and be her Bodyguard while Kira wanted to live away from it all and let the responsibilities to the world be handed off to others).

Yet Kira's interventions always ended up with far more Orb deaths than had he stayed off the battlefield and just let them get beaten back by Shinn. His actions and inactions in Destiny have resulted in many deaths and just because he has good intentions doesn't excuse him or his naivety.

I say that it's right because it was WORKING ON MARS and the current system was not working at all. At least Durandal was offering a solution that showed great promise while Kira was content with keeping everything the same despite the fact that it isn't working and hasn't worked in the longest time. And no they didn't, Kira didn't ask for the worlds, PLANTs, the Martians, or the such opinions. He merely said "Make a choice" than proceed to take the Destiny Plan off the table and forced everyone to go with the choice he wanted. That makes him just as bad as Durandal who at least was offering something different with a history of working.

Sacrifices must always be made to take out a massively powerful and aggressive force of Logos and Durandal had to show what he was capable of if the Destiny Plan was to ever succeed. Considering how many more have died because of the old ways it means that Kira's opposing of a plan that was working means that his hands will be stained with the blood of all those killed in the wars that will follow due to the old way being the only way despite it not working.

And again, wars may still happen but Durandal's System would take out a ton of reasons for war and would see to it that everyone reaches the potential that was meant for them(All it needs is a system to give the option for extraordinary individuals to get a waiver to move past their destined role if the need arises). While Kira's way keeps all the reasons for war on the table and he takes away the Destiny plan from those that liked it despite the fact that it was working quite well and Durandal had more than enough means to ensure that it could be enacted for all of humanity. Obviously like all revolutions people would protest that's why Durandal had to show the power he has to get people to stop their petty fighting and work towards what's best for humanity as a whole.
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Old 2012-10-31, 18:24   Link #5178
Jellal
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Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: California
^I agree with the above.

Point is, Cagali was probably the weakest character within Destiny.
Her judgement, action and overall mentality was that of a child.
Without daddy around, she couldn't make up her mind.

Her and Kira always were sanctimonious. Even Athrun said that much.
Ignorance and naivety were really the reason things escalated to a point.
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Old 2012-10-31, 18:56   Link #5179
Aquaman OS
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Join Date: Feb 2008
You do realize you're basically saying Durandal should have the right to take over and tell the entire world what to do? And blow away entire countries that don't want to follow his plan which is basically him telling everyone what jobs they're going to have?

A big part of the Destiny Plan on Mars, is that anyone who doesn't like it, is free to leave (and go the one colony that doesn't use it. And they get along fine). Durandal meanwhile, plans on enforcing it with Space lasers. It's not really a voluntary plan if you get blown up if you refuse.
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Old 2012-10-31, 18:59   Link #5180
Destined_Fate
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Good that others here share similar views as me when it comes to things as this even if you may not agree with everything I say.

Durandal has more of a right than Kira. At least he was in a position of power, won the war, and had a wide array of support while the Lacus Clyne faction had very little support, were rebels, and had attacked all sides in the war regardless of their positions.

Besides, the war would have gotten far worse had Durandal not been in charge and revealed that it was Logos that caused the hate and that Normals weren't really at fault(So it no longer became a race war in an instant when he revealed that all sides were being manipulated by Logos). That and him using Meer was what stopped ZAFT from going back to crazy SEED versions.

Had he done nothing, as Lacus and Kira chose to do, than the war would have dragged out and the death tolls would be ridiculously larger with Logos never being revealed. After all almost no one knew about Logos let alone did they have the power to oppose them like Durandal had.

Don't forget that it was also Durandal's forces that united Normals and Coordinators at long last and it was his forces that took out Logos who were the true manipulators that stood in the way of any progress.

His only mistake was attacking Lacus when she was no threat at that time. Though he was right to fear her considering that her force took out the Feds and ZAFT in the last war as rebels and that she had went into hiding instead of womaning up to her many crimes and being judged in a court of law. Which I'm sure, had she done that, she wouldn't have been punished at all considering that she's still widely popular in ZAFT hence why Meer was able to impersonate her to great effect.

That and she represented the very rebellious tendencies he wanted to remove and if she revealed herself he couldn't use Meer to calm the people. Which is exactly what happened.

And yes, as with all Revolutions those in power must be "convinced" to embrace change or they will never move away from a system that currently benefits only them.
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