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Old 2012-10-31, 18:16   Link #1421
Cosmic Eagle
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Doesn't the Sibyl work by calculating based on an organic brain?

Like this they should use it to detect and get rid of defective robot workers....wait, maybe they already do....


Still wonder what's the difference between say a Red and a Blue of similar brightness...Hope they release more info on what traits the colors represent
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Old 2012-10-31, 21:41   Link #1422
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I assume there's a threat assessment aspect to the dominator as well, such as it detecting a danger of starting a large fire, or noticing that paralysis shot is not working. To me it doesn't seem as much of a stretch that it can see when robots are out of control as well.
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Old 2012-11-01, 03:34   Link #1423
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Yay, a subforum! It was just a matter of time, honestly...
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Old 2012-11-01, 04:26   Link #1424
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A new sub-forum. Oh noes/yays...

Don't know how difficult it would be, but it would be nice to pull the discussion on the morality and philosophy of the Sibyl System to a separate thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Doesn't the Sibyl work by calculating based on an organic brain?

Like this they should use it to detect and get rid of defective robot workers....wait, maybe they already do...
It's not far-fetched at all. You just need to recast your perspective of biology, and think of your brain as a complex computation machine. We don't think of our brains in that fashion today only because neuroscience is still very much in its infancy. But even so, we're already at a stage where brain scans can reliably predict how we would answer yes/no questions split seconds before we can even articulate an answer. It's on this basis, after all, that Sam Harris argues strongly that free will is an illusion, that what we perceive as a conscious decision made of our own free will is in fact nothing more than the result of a complex chemical reaction that can be scientifically measured, and hence predicted.

So, if a Dominator can scan a biological brain that is essentially a mass of electrical signals, it can easily do the same for a mechanical "brain". (Besides, who's to say that robotic brains are 100 per cent mechanical in the Psycho-Pass universe? It could be a cyborg brain for all we know.)
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Old 2012-11-01, 04:35   Link #1425
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Oh a subforum ... congratulation to Psycho Pass

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Don't know how difficult it would be, but it would be nice to pull the discussion on the morality and philosophy of the Sibyl System to a separate thread.
yeah, we should try asking that on the request for new threads.
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Old 2012-11-01, 04:51   Link #1426
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Finally! And I agree - this interesting discussion definitely deserves its own thread, even if it'll be a bit of work for the moderators to move all the posts over...

------

Speaking of which...just my two cents.

I feel that the main debate here atm is whether the Sibyl system is just a tool and thus faultless, with the flaws in the way it is used existing entirely because humans can never use such technology 'perfectly', vs. the idea that Sibyl itself is part of the problem.

I wonder if this debate is actually pointing to one of the deeper points about the world that the creators of this show are interested in, except not just with regards to the universe of Psycho-Pass, but also and more importantly with regards to the modern societies in which we, the viewers, live.

The apparent dichotomy that seems to have appeared in this thread is, in my opinion, pointing to questions at another level - which some might term the 'meta' level - about why we have reacted in particular ways to what has been presented to us thus far. This has been illustrated in what some of you have been posting about the system, though I'll draw on one of TinyRedLeaf's recent comments in particular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
We keep coming back to this point. I agree, of course, that it's an important principle — in real life — but to keep harping on this is to miss the entire premise of the show.

As I've highlighted before, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Criminal Investigation Department's logo is adapted from the North American symbol for the medical profession. We are, in essence, being invited to ask: "What if an individual's potential for 'crime' can be detected in a way similar to how we diagnose disease?"

We're being asked to put aside our disbelief and to imagine an ethical system built on that premise. The premise is, at heart, quite simple and is, in fact, not very far removed from some of the ideas proposed by contemporary scientists as renowned as Samuel Harris and Richard Dawkins: that it makes no sense to have a justice system that punishes criminal behaviour after the fact if science could show that a defendant was psychologically incapable of distinguishing right from wrong the way healthy individuals can.

Monsters do exist. Serial killers are, for example, wired very differently from normal people and they can't help but kill.

And to take the premise one step further, if you could in fact diagnose criminal potential — and in this alternative reality, the underlying assumption is that it can be measured very accurately — would it be morally responsible to let the individual roam free when appropriate treatment is readily available?

*snip*

My arguments in support for the Sibyl System come from this angle. It's easy to dismiss dystopian fiction as something that could never happen in real life. It's much more fun, on the other hand, to imagine how it could have come to pass.
Personally, I'm probably leaning towards seeing the Sibyl system and the institutions built around it, particularly the judgement of people's mental health, as something I don't want to support. To me, there's something sinister about the way that mental health has been criminalised...or perhaps, the way to see it is that crime has been medicalised, and that there are many problems inherent in the system because that. In other words, I'm inclined to see the world of PSYCHO-PASS as a dystopia that can only fall apart, sooner or later.

However, I wonder if the more important question to ask is: why do I think that way? Why is this my instinctive reaction? Why do I expect failure? Why do some of us automatically recoil at the thought of a social system that places so much faith in a scientific diagnostic tool?


Or, to be more specific, what are the institutionalised beliefs about freedom and choice, about the relationship between science and human nature, that inform my reaction, and most importantly, where have they come from?

The reason I think these questions are important is because we ourselves often lose sight of the factors that influence the way we think. Which is where the debates in this thread come in again. I think it's been pointed out a lot earlier in this thread: the Sibyl system is like many systems in the modern world, systems that set limits on what we can do in various aspects of life. However, we don't really perceive these systems anymore - they've become so much a part of our lives that we don't question how they've been formed, or whether they actually make sense. Just like many of the characters in PSYCHO-PASS don't question how ubiquitous Sibyl is in their lives.
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Old 2012-11-01, 05:03   Link #1427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post

However, I wonder if the more important question to ask is: why do I think that way? Why is this my instinctive reaction? Why do I expect failure? Why do some of us automatically recoil at the thought of a social system that places so much faith in a scientific diagnostic tool?


Or, to be more specific, what are the institutionalised beliefs about freedom and choice, about the relationship between science and human nature, that inform my reaction, and most importantly, where have they come from?

The reason I think these questions are important is because we ourselves often lose sight of the factors that influence the way we think. Which is where the debates in this thread come in again. I think it's been pointed out a lot earlier in this thread: the Sibyl system is like many systems in the modern world, systems that set limits on what we can do in various aspects of life. However, we don't really perceive these systems anymore - they've become so much a part of our lives that we don't question how they've been formed, or whether they actually make sense. Just like many of the characters in PSYCHO-PASS don't question how ubiquitous Sibyl is in their lives.
Precisely!

It's the fundamental basis of all philosophy, the need to always consider the assumptions, both implicit and explicit, that lead us to the conclusions we make. To always confront our own biases before we criticise those of others.
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Old 2012-11-01, 05:12   Link #1428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Precisely!

It's the fundamental basis of all philosophy, the need to always consider the assumptions, both implicit and explicit, that lead us to the conclusions we make. To always confront our own biases before we criticise those of others.
This is actually the reason why the current discussion on the Sibyl System's approach on justice and incarceration actually somewhat reminds me of Foucault's Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison in the way it attempts to tackle the the social and cultural trends that lead society to adopt current methods of incarceration and/or reformation. That is to say, the question for me becomes to ask whether the Sibyl System is itself a tool for reforming would-be criminals, or a tool of vengeful control over anyone with a potential to disrupt the status quo.

I actually had a write-up somewhere when I started to see how the Urobucher's take on this society's overarching philosophy on crime and punishment somewhat mirror's Foucault's observation that the model of punishment is used not only for crime but also for controlling an entire society not only through it's criminal codes but also in everyday life.

The Sibyl System in fact nearly epitomizes Foucault's observation of the three primary techniques for control: hierarchial observation, examination and normalized judgement. The Sibyl System is the 21st century (?) equivalent of the metaphorical Panopticon. A prison of computer code and algorithms.

If I find it and finish it I'll probably post it some other time.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2012-11-01 at 05:25.
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Old 2012-11-01, 07:24   Link #1429
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
A new sub-forum. Oh noes/yays...

Don't know how difficult it would be, but it would be nice to pull the discussion on the morality and philosophy of the Sibyl System to a separate thread.


It's not far-fetched at all. You just need to recast your perspective of biology, and think of your brain as a complex computation machine. We don't think of our brains in that fashion today only because neuroscience is still very much in its infancy. But even so, we're already at a stage where brain scans can reliably predict how we would answer yes/no questions split seconds before we can even articulate an answer. It's on this basis, after all, that Sam Harris argues strongly that free will is an illusion, that what we perceive as a conscious decision made of our own free will is in fact nothing more than the result of a complex chemical reaction that can be scientifically measured, and hence predicted.

So, if a Dominator can scan a biological brain that is essentially a mass of electrical signals, it can easily do the same for a mechanical "brain". (Besides, who's to say that robotic brains are 100 per cent mechanical in the Psycho-Pass universe? It could be a cyborg brain for all we know.)
No, I mean detecting the threat from a bot that's been programmed to kill is easy as heck....detecting latent flaws in the bot's programming OTOH...is about as meaningful as scanning a rock unless the bot is sentient.

Also how does free will being a process of our own brains make it an illusion? It's still our self that produces and is comprised of said chemical reactions that differs from person to person resulting in varied responses.

If it weren't even for said reactions the physical brain would not function.

It's a web of pathways said reactions can take but which pathway it takes is still a response to a host of various factors. A psychopath for example, has far less choice due to his wiring than a normal person. A normal person has far more possibility and potential perhaps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Precisely!

It's the fundamental basis of all philosophy, the need to always consider the assumptions, both implicit and explicit, that lead us to the conclusions we make. To always confront our own biases before we criticise those of others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post

However, I wonder if the more important question to ask is: why do I think that way? Why is this my instinctive reaction? Why do I expect failure? Why do some of us automatically recoil at the thought of a social system that places so much faith in a scientific diagnostic tool?


Or, to be more specific, what are the institutionalised beliefs about freedom and choice, about the relationship between science and human nature, that inform my reaction, and most importantly, where have they come from?

The reason I think these questions are important is because we ourselves often lose sight of the factors that influence the way we think. Which is where the debates in this thread come in again. I think it's been pointed out a lot earlier in this thread: the Sibyl system is like many systems in the modern world, systems that set limits on what we can do in various aspects of life. However, we don't really perceive these systems anymore - they've become so much a part of our lives that we don't question how they've been formed, or whether they actually make sense. Just like many of the characters in PSYCHO-PASS don't question how ubiquitous Sibyl is in their lives.



Yet don't you already inwardly recoil at our current society? The way how there's a "greater good at the expense of what may be morally right" governing the greater core of it. Doesn't everyone recoil somewhat against it but just bear with it due to lack of ability to do anything about it?
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-11-01 at 07:38.
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:20   Link #1430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
This is actually the reason why the current discussion on the Sibyl System's approach on justice and incarceration actually somewhat reminds me of Foucault's Discipline and Punish: The Birth of the Prison in the way it attempts to tackle the the social and cultural trends that lead society to adopt current methods of incarceration and/or reformation. That is to say, the question for me becomes to ask whether the Sibyl System is itself a tool for reforming would-be criminals, or a tool of vengeful control over anyone with a potential to disrupt the status quo.
Both. If it deems you irreparable (which can happen without you doing anything bad), then Sibyl's the excuse to throw you away or push the worst jobs onto you while severely limiting the rewards you can get.

If not, but something happens to you - instead of letting you spiral down into depression and self-destructive behaviors, the way it happens in our societies, Sibyl will force you to heal. (Or be relegated to the category I discussed in the previous paragraph...)
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:43   Link #1431
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158 posts copied to create the thread, morality and philosophy of the Sibyl System, as TLR suggested about the thread-title. That's a lot of clicking. I hope that is more than enough reading to get this discussion interesting for newer participant.
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Old 2012-11-01, 09:16   Link #1432
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youtu.be/0bmSspecioc
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Old 2012-11-01, 09:34   Link #1433
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suntaclaus View Post
youtu.be/0bmSspecioc
Is that episode 4 preview? You need more words in your post! If it is indeed the preview, you can post it in the episode 4 thread.
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Old 2012-11-01, 09:38   Link #1434
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Is that episode 4 preview? You need more words in your post! If it is indeed the preview, you can post it in the episode 4 thread.
Yes. Sorry.
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Old 2012-11-01, 09:49   Link #1435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suntaclaus View Post
Yes. Sorry.
No problem. Kanon already reposted the preview in the episode 4 thread.
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Old 2012-11-01, 22:29   Link #1436
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Old 2012-11-02, 20:51   Link #1437
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i finish the first ep.

my impression seems to be Psycho pass is basically a anime ver of Minority Report. Is my impression right or is there more to it.

i am not a fan of Minority report.
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Old 2012-11-02, 21:15   Link #1438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i finish the first ep.

my impression seems to be Psycho pass is basically a anime ver of Minority Report. Is my impression right or is there more to it.

i am not a fan of Minority report.
Hard to say at this point. One certainly hopes for more substance and not just for more substance, for substance that's actually original when it comes to cyberpunkish dystopian contexts.
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Old 2012-11-02, 22:39   Link #1439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i finish the first ep.

my impression seems to be Psycho pass is basically a anime ver of Minority Report. Is my impression right or is there more to it.

i am not a fan of Minority report.
The premise is broadly similar to that of Minority Report, but the execution and direction is quite different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
In such a world, the focus of law enforcement has changed, in response to a reality where crime prevention has become a matter of number crunching. This fictional premise is not original. Many have pointed out Psycho-Pass' similarity with Minority Report, for example.

But, in reference to a recent thread elsewhere in the forum, the execution differs greatly. In Minority Report, crime prevention was made possible by a more far-fetched technology, that of tapping the mental abilities of a trio of psychics. Psycho-Pass, on the other hand, taps into facets of neuro- and behavioural (science) that have already been extensively documented, to the point where much of the basic conclusions are already part of public knowledge. In other words, Psycho-Pass is grounded in something more real, more possible.

My arguments in support for the Sibyl System come from this angle. It's easy to dismiss dystopian fiction as something that could never happen in real life. It's much more fun, on the other hand, to imagine how it could have come to pass.

Because, quite frankly, I would be somewhat disappointed if, in the end, all I got from this show is a dystopian view that is a no-brainer to hate. Such stories are dime-a-dozen. I'm more interested to see if Psycho-Pass could present scenarios where there are no "win" conditions: no matter what choice the characters make — obey or disobey the system — they lose. Ep3 came close, but still fell somewhat short of the mark, I felt. It left me with no real sense of unease nor feelings of conflicted morals. My comment to Gen Urobuchi would be: Nice try, but try harder.
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Old 2012-11-08, 12:17   Link #1440
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Funimation tweeted that due to the switch back to standard time, Pyscho-Pass will now stream at 10:45 am CT on Thursdays. [Source]
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