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Old 2012-11-01, 01:29   Link #181
Triple_R
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I don't think that the occasional fanservice shot necessarily undermines a strong "Action Girl" portrayal.

Also, how the fanservice shot is executed can be pretty important. If it's a passive sort of thing, where a skirt just flips up or breasts bounce a bit while the girl is in motion, then that's not necessarily a problem. If the scene draws massive attention to it by having male characters gawk and shout like fratboys over it, though, then it starts to feel a bit sexist to me.

Basically, if the male characters have a tendency to treat a female character as a sex object, then the narrative is kind of implying that this is how the viewer should approach her as well. But if the anime just quietly winks at the audience and throws out some "eye candy" then that's not necessarily a problem. A lot of it really does come down to execution.


Personally, there's a certain threshold for me, a certain point at what a specific female character is thrown into fanservice so often (and/or with such little subtlety) that I can't take her seriously any more. I would say that Code Geass' Kallen is right on the line for me there, as I could still take her seriously, but it was a struggle at times. So any female given less fanservice than Kallen was, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Any given more than what Kallen was, then I'd start to find it a bit sexist (or at least objectifying).


With respect to Obelisk ze Tormentor's point, I think there's something to be said about a female character that can seem strong and sexy without ever needing a pervy camera angle to get there. That's much of what I take from his comment - Haman Karn is so strong that the anime never felt the need to sex her up.

Mind you, Gundam (especially the older ones) don't have a lot of conventional fanservice anyway. I don't recall many fanservice shots of Sayla, Relena Peacecraft, or Lacus Clyne, either.
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Old 2012-11-01, 01:56   Link #182
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
With respect to Obelisk ze Tormentor's point, I think there's something to be said about a female character that can seem strong and sexy without ever needing a pervy camera angle to get there. That's much of what I take from his comment - Haman Karn is so strong that the anime never felt the need to sex her up.
That's a Bingo, buddy .

I also agree about Kallen. IMO her entire "being in the cockpit of Gurren" (among other things) is one big fanservice which is a distraction from the actual battles.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I don't recall many fanservice shots of Sayla, Relena Peacecraft, or Lacus Clyne, either.
In MS Gundam Movie 3, there's a nudity scene of Sayla taking a bath (nipples and all).
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Old 2012-11-01, 01:56   Link #183
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Gundam Double Zeta would beg to differ. There was a complete artbook dedicated to that. It was only during AGE (which was a practice in misogyny) that really curtailed female roles in gundam by killing off 99% of the female cast or relegating them to non action roles. There was only ONE federation female pilot and that was during second generation.

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Its gotten so bad, I start dragging out the "closet man-love" memes on all this "men only" gamestering.
I think Vert's fujoshi stance came from that, now I have a horrible image in my mind about Vert's naked male butlers being Marcus, Price, Soap and Shepard.
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Old 2012-11-01, 06:52   Link #184
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The best kind of fanservice is the subtle kind--the kind that leaves you both interested, yet wondering if it was actually intended as fanservice or if your brain just found fanservice in an innocent scene...

Blatant fanservice is obvious and clunky, an "easy" way to keep the audience's attention.
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:38   Link #185
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I saw one of the weirdest examples of a "male gaze" shot in episode four of Shin Sekai Yori. The camera was positioned at ground level just behind the heroine. She was standing with her legs slightly apart, and the camera showed her cute stockings with laces and the subject of the shot through her legs. We never saw anything else, but it was obviously intended to suggest the putative camera operator would have had a good look at her panties. I guess syn might consider that an example of "subtle" fanservice; I just found it distracting.
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Old 2012-11-01, 08:55   Link #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The best kind of fanservice is the subtle kind--the kind that leaves you both interested, yet wondering if it was actually intended as fanservice or if your brain just found fanservice in an innocent scene...

Blatant fanservice is obvious and clunky, an "easy" way to keep the audience's attention.
Agree 987% .. which is why I keep referencing Najica Blitz Tactics and certain other ecchi shows that have action tacked on .. it's the spawn of the devil!

So to tie this back into the whole forum topic .. Action Girls definitely can be sexist, but ultimately is a trope that can be used to show a strong powerful woman or the inverse!
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Old 2012-11-01, 09:18   Link #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I saw one of the weirdest examples of a "male gaze" shot in episode four of Shin Sekai Yori. The camera was positioned at ground level just behind the heroine. She was standing with her legs slightly apart, and the camera showed her cute stockings with laces and the subject of the shot through her legs. We never saw anything else, but it was obviously intended to suggest the putative camera operator would have had a good look at her panties. I guess syn might consider that an example of "subtle" fanservice; I just found it distracting.
I'd disagree with that case in particular,the storyboarder for that episode just seemed to have an affection for ground level shots, we got the reverse shot of the one you mentioned when at one point the "camera" was right behind the "library" or we go a shot of the kids through the monk's legs or later on when they're attacked by the queerats there's one of the kids through the queerat's legs.

That shot is often used when there's confrontation,like a standoff in a western or a fight in a shonen action show,I think that's what they were going for here.

Though of course yes,in many other cases this type of shot can be used for fanservice, especially in fanservicy action shows.
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Old 2012-11-01, 17:22   Link #188
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Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
There's one scene where Kamille put "pressure" on her and we see her in naked newtype time and a couple of scenes near the end in the movie theater that seem to linger on her legs while she's ducking in and behind some chairs in the 3 way fight with Scirroco and Char, but yeah other than that there's not much in Zeta at least. ZZ is kind of a different story though
Well, that's the thing. Not all nudity is fanservice. Nor is all sex. But I guess it seems to be the exception.
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Old 2012-11-01, 18:20   Link #189
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Originally Posted by totoum View Post
I'd disagree with that case in particular,the storyboarder for that episode just seemed to have an affection for ground level shots
I'll take another look. This particular shot was just so strange that it caught my attention. Pehaps it was just a directorial style.
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Old 2012-11-01, 20:38   Link #190
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The criteria for a strong female character can really be boiled down to this: If the show was switched to focusing on the female lead as the main point of view, would you still watch it?
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Old 2012-11-02, 21:32   Link #191
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You know, how exactly do we get so far without mentioning Evangelion's Rei Ayanami, especially when she gets referred to as a doll in series? She's arguably the trendsetter for the extremely passive demure and attractive sex symbol that does cool stuff and Inori's definitely a homage (or bastardization if you want to be cynical). But that's not really faulting her-- many many have tried to copy Rei although few have succeeded.

Spoiler for End of Evangelion:


Though it is funny, because Rei was not intended to be a sex symbol at all. But it clearly didn't turn out that way and it seemed like people were going ZOMG TEH REI for the wrong reasons. Weirdly enough, the Rebuild version of Rei seems to come off as a straight kuudere-type that was inspired partially by herself. I don't know what to think of that.
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Old 2012-11-02, 21:56   Link #192
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Weirdly enough, the Rebuild version of Rei seems to come off as a straight kuudere-type that was inspired partially by herself. I don't know what to think of that.
I always think that some characters in Evangelion Rebuild have been “tamed” to entertaining-level. I think that’s the main purpose of Rebuild. To make Evangelion more accessible/enjoyable to newcomers by not being as grim as the original (so far).
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Old 2012-11-02, 22:25   Link #193
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One can see Rebuild as the Eva of Anno who have come in terms with himself and have become a happier man. Which makes you wonder what kind of anime he'd make if he gets a child.
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Old 2012-11-02, 23:40   Link #194
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Moar Super Robot anime maybe?
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Old 2012-11-03, 05:40   Link #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I saw one of the weirdest examples of a "male gaze" shot in episode four of Shin Sekai Yori. The camera was positioned at ground level just behind the heroine. She was standing with her legs slightly apart, and the camera showed her cute stockings with laces and the subject of the shot through her legs. We never saw anything else, but it was obviously intended to suggest the putative camera operator would have had a good look at her panties. I guess syn might consider that an example of "subtle" fanservice; I just found it distracting.
That's actually blatant fanservice and it was used in a lot of older movies, most famously a James Bond flick, For Your Eyes Only.
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Old 2012-11-03, 05:52   Link #196
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That's actually blatant fanservice and it was used in a lot of older movies, most famously a James Bond flick, For Your Eyes Only.
You mean in one of its movie posters?

I own the movie on DVD, and I don’t remember there's a similar shot/scene like SeijiSensei described in For Your Eyes Only.
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Old 2012-11-03, 07:26   Link #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
That's actually blatant fanservice and it was used in a lot of older movies, most famously a James Bond flick, For Your Eyes Only.
There's a big difference between this (the shot SeijiSensei is talking about) and this

And the storyboarder just seemed to like that type of shot
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Old 2012-11-03, 16:33   Link #198
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Yeah that doesn't even look like any sort of fanservice, just weird cinematography.
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Old 2012-11-03, 17:05   Link #199
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
I always think that some characters in Evangelion Rebuild have been “tamed” to entertaining-level. I think that’s the main purpose of Rebuild. To make Evangelion more accessible/enjoyable to newcomers by not being as grim as the original (so far).
Unfortunately in my mind tamed means to sap out all the personality they had-- they almost seem to have turned into the archetypes they subverted in the first place.

Though the worst is definitely the new character, that really fits the bad kind of archtype in the OP. She has zero depth, a flat personality, and is really just there to do cool possibly inhuman feats as well as show off tits and ass. Though I guess that's why her nickname is "Mari Sue" :S

But this is a rant for another day. As I've said before, there's nothing wrong with showing off a character's body or abilities. But it can't just be an end to itself.

I really do feel like Rebuild was supposed to reflect a more matured creator that moved out of their depression, but the characters here don't really have enough luster. We can hope they boost themselves past the halfway point, but it doesn't look that way atm.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:59   Link #200
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Anime is not really great medium that make great female characters of course there are some great exceptions like Ghibli. However when the anime has to portray certain strong female character, it had to be a bit too blatant, or over the top, I guess it has to pander to the target demographics to be successful. That was one thing I liked about Ghibli, they can make a strong female character without making her actually ridiculously strong but she is independent and doesn't need to rely on brute strength at the same time still be feminine like Princess Mononoke and the others (I can't remember the names). By all means I welcome the tomboys and variety of strong females but I guess I really don't appreciate this particular character archetypes. As long as they can manage to create a character keeping a fine balance like Ghibli does, I like it.

I guess I'm the only one with this preference and have yet to try Ghost in the Shell nor Black Lagoon. Well action isn't really my cup of tea anyway.
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