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Old 2012-11-03, 15:42   Link #31081
Drifloon
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Yeah, I agree with that. EP7 makes it pretty clear, really; the red truth was NEVER meant to be the primary reasoning device, and that's the biggest flaw in KnownNoMore's analysis, because it seems to be literally the only thing he uses to reason, "the highest authority in the story" by his own words. When in fact, Battler arrived at the truth by rereading the WHOLE tale, not just by comparing a list of reds against each other and ignoring all the white text as unreliable.

In other words, it's just like EP7 keeps saying; you can't solve the how dunnit without first solving the why dunnit. Or to put it another way, the why dunnit - the heart of the culprit - is the most important thing. The method is only secondary to that; something to fit together after you've already discovered the important part of the answer.
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Old 2012-11-03, 16:01   Link #31082
qno2
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Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.

Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.

Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".

... wouldn't put it past Ryukishi.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-03 at 16:39.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:25   Link #31083
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
On the other hand, her motive for doing so is weak.

For another, how did she know anything about what kind of relationship Battler and Shannon might have had; she'd never seen them together. (Kyrie must have thought that Battler wasn't making any other contact with Shannon and that he had no plans of doing so, other than that letter; otherwise, stealing that one letter would be pointless. He'd deliberately turned down the opportunity to go to Rokkenjima (see Shannon) that year. Breaking up a relationship that had been cold for three years, that had no direct likelihood of restarting on its own, and that she had no good reason to believe had existed in the first place, doesn't seem terribly difficult.)
Battler and Kyrie knew prior to his mother's dead and he considered her a cool person. It's entirely possible he told her/let her understand that on Rokkenjima there was a girl he felt an affinity with prior to Asumu's death.
On Rokkenjima there were many maids but it's implied they're usually older than what Yasu was so it's not really difficult to guess Yasu might be that girl. Just to be sure Kyrie could ask her from how long she was working for the Ushiromiya.
Although no one seems to notice it, Shannon always gets interested when Battler is mentioned and also tries to get info about him, which is something Kyrie might have noticed.

We don't know if Battler placed all the letters in the big envelope or if this was something she did to carry them more confortably so she could have seen to whom they were addressed and, if Battler wrote to Shannon, she would be the only one that's not a cousin to whom Battler would have written. Kyrie specifically said she suggested him to write to his cousins (funny enough there was also a letter for Ange who's not a cousin and that Battler could meet out of Rokkenjima). It could be hard to miss it, even if Kyrie wasn't informed beforehand.

Sure, Battler might have waved it out saying 'she's just a friend' but Kyrie might not have bought it and anyway... (even George realized Battler had been interested in Shannon when he was a kid) just to be sure she could always open the letter and check the content. Then, if it was nothing suspicious, she can put it in another envelope, claiming the original envelope got damaged, maybe by little Ange, and hand it to Shannon.

Now we know Kyrie still holds a grudge against Asumu and that, by default, she transferred it on Battler as well. Why not to ruin Battler's love story as payback to Asumu?

If the whole thing about the missing letter were to be discovered Kyrie could always claim she didn't remember about that letter so she either lost it before placing it in the envelope or that she neither received it from Battler so he's the one who lost it somewhere.

As Battler doesn't seem the type to suspect she might hold a grudge against his mother and him why should he doubt her?

This could have also an interesting chain reaction. If Battler believed he sent a letter to Shannon and never received an answer, from his point of view he would be the one who'd been 'rejected' and so he would assume Shannon didn't take seriously his words and do his best to forget the whole promise and everything connected to it.

Theorically this might have been represented by EP 6, where Battler is cold with Beato, whom he wanted to see again quite a lot because she 'forgot' and he's trying to make her remember again with a mystery game he's apparently playing with someone else.

Of course it's all speculation. We never had Battler's side about what happened in those three years. All we know is that he really had feelings for Shannon but believed he said something stupid when he promised her to take her away on a white horse and that actually he wasn't all that happy it was George who got her... though he usually is supportive of the two.

He labelled his memory of the white horse thing as 'bittersweet' not just as embarassing, and if my poor English doesn't fail me, this implies that was some sadness laced to that memory.

Note also that Battler doesn't have a girlfriend despite being really popular but that after seeing Shannon is with George he considers searching one for himself, that he seems to be the faithful type (he depised his father for cheating, he praised over Natsuhi's love purity), that he notices pretty fast that there's something going between Shannon and George, a sign he was actually paying her attention and that as he realized those two are a couple he claims he only wasted those 6 years he spent away from Rokkenjima. He also regret not returning there sooner.

He also said something interesting:

Quote:
Women are creatures who always ask questions, and yet, they almost never answer them. What cruel creatures, seriously.
that makes me wonder... when did he question a woman and she refused to answer?

But all this really isn't enough to assume that there was a letter to begin with so it can't help us to figure out where it ended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.
I've hard time thinking Shannon tried to cover up for Kyrie.

First because it would change her motive for writing the tales which should have been trying to have HER mystery solved by someone and HER heart reached or make it not the sole motive.

Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.
The interesting part is that the episodes in which Kyrie is suspicious are the ones written by Battler/Toya and not the previous two who were supposedly written by Yasu. So, if Yasu wrote her episodes trying to get the focus on her, Toya might have copied her scheme to write her own but added to them his memories, unconsciously writing in them a suspicious Kyrie.
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Old 2012-11-03, 18:59   Link #31084
qno2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
I've hard time thinking Shannon tried to cover up for Kyrie.

First because it would change her motive for writing the tales which should have been trying to have HER mystery solved by someone and HER heart reached or make it not the sole motive.

Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.
Don't believe into it myself but it's an interesting theory.

Though I'm more talking about Meta-Beato (depending on how you look at that matter = Itsuko/post-1986-Yasu) covering up than Author-Yasu. From the illusion of the witch to Shkanon basically. Doesn't mean that this line of thought can ignore the first two episodes though, since we received the red from Meta-Beato, not the author.
The original author would still keep her original intent.

Yup, didn't really express myself well in my last post, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiblue1
Second, it failed spectacularily as the rumors about the Rokkenjima incident not being an incident and the interest of the witch hunters for it were caused by her messages in the bottles. Before it seems people was more prone to accept the police's theory it was an incident. In short she raised more suspicions instead than decreasing them.
Wouldn't really speak against the Witch/Shkanon hiding the truth from Battler and Ange actually, since all the speculation still spoke about the "Witch Serial Murder", not "White-Haired Demon Murder".


Personally I never saw a point in author-Yasu throwing out her stories anyway, regardless of whether she planned a murder game, an actual mass murder (actually, there it could have a purpose: "to keep them alive for all eternity in stories" ... yeah) or nothing at all, so I generally don't believe they served any real purpose - it was an emotional act. "Ah, just like in 'And then there were none'. Maybe someone will someday find them and discover my twisted and confused heart. Tell me, dear reader I will never know, what path should I take? I will be too late however. So please, just understand me." Which would imply that the whole incident wasn't really anything she planned, all just a weird accident and coincidence as it tends to happen in stories.
If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").

BUUUT I think you folks probably discussed the original author extensively so let's not start this anew, let's force the "Prime-Kyrie-culprit with Meta-Beato covering her for the sake of both Battler and Ange" Theory into the story!
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:12   Link #31085
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Though the thought that Yasu herself is a red herring (out of her own volition) for Kyrie is interesting, it at least avoids the problem that Rosatrice has with, you know, the question as to why Chiru even exists in the first place if it's just a huge troll, which wouldn't just discredit the story but Ryukishi as a writer.

Sadly there is the Chapel-Twilight. Unless there is some weird hint that Kyrie dressed up as, say, Rosa (thus the real Rosa would do her best at cosplaying Kyrie at the "halloween party") that one seems quite impossible. But it would still play the same old game of "unconfirmed identities" from the cousin's room in EP6, the identites of the "six" are never stated, just that they're dead.
Additionally, even if there are hints for Kyrie's cosplay as the best mum ever (though she's a good contender for that title anyway), it'd be still ridiculous/very unlikely since all the following red from EP2 talks about Rosa.

Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".

... wouldn't put it past Ryukishi.
Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!



But here's the deal:
Lets look back at some events.
Who are the ones that knew about the "Guest"?
Rosa,Kyrie,Shannon,Kanon,Gohda and Genji.
I like to point something out.
Kyrie was the one who blurted out about the guest that appearantly those 6 only saw.
It resulted in a (bleep)storm just when dinner was served.
Kyrie told Gohda to ask Genji about this (despite she saw him with her, unless that was Anime only) and Nanjo left with him for no real reason given.
Natsuhi told Nanjo to take the kids along.
But who are left behind:
The ones in the chapel.
I note:
Just when dinner was served.
But remember this:
Jessica in the next morning was coughing wildly (appearantly due to her weak bronchi and the situation being too much).


Jessica ate from the food served while those who remained behind were found dead with "sweets in their intestines" and the room looked like a Banquet.

Who are the ones that entered the chapel?
Rosa,Shannon,Kanon,Genji,Gohda and Nanjo thus the red could actually refer to them entering it.

You know if it wouldn't be for:
"All were killed" one could argue that.
Even with Kyrie alive there can be 6 dead people in the chapel and 6 being dead when discovered.
As in:
The 6th Person dead in the chapel being Kinzo, not among the 6 at the table but the chapel being his resting/hiding place in EP 2.
Afterall EP 2 has him "survive" until the bomb goes up.
While in EP 1 he is roasted, faked to be a victim of the murders.
In EP 3 hs is faked as well and god knows what happened in EP 4.
Meaning that Kinzo was truly dead,not used as a fake victim but simply rested or was hidden.
Didn't Kyrie mention something about Kinzo being dead in EP 4?

You should even see that Gohda,Nanjo and Kanon (Don't ask me how seeing that Shannon left with Genji) tried to halt the "Children" from getting to the victims.

Or how did Kinzo die again?

Quote:
Even so, how does a desire to murder Battler spiral out of control like that? Especially since Battler lives, which means that Kyrie must've been really bad at murdering him.[

The Gold.
One could also argue that Kyrie attempted to simply torture him by killing off everyone first saving him for last.
I believe EP 2 even mentions something about breaking,torturing and tormenting Battler in the game results.


Quote:
Well, if we consider the episodes Toya wrote she's pretty suspicious.
In Ep 3 it's implied it was her gun who shoot at Hideyoshi and she was the one who had the plan to drag him there. We're also told she's very good with guns.
If I think about it, it's pretty clever if she used Eva as a backup plan to killer Battler.
Kyrie being the killer would give Eva plenty of reasons to kill him.
Especially when the duel of her and Rudolf against the stakes can be seen or interpreted as having murdered Rosa and Maria.
Only 5 stakes were used in EP 3, only ones that weren't were Belphegor and Leviathan.Deaths of Maria and Rosa are what caused an irregularity starting the stakings with the 9th victim instead of the 7th/8th.
Yes one could argue "Nowhere does it say the 7th and 8th need to be staked", then again I point to that completely contradicting the existance of 7 stakes or the MO of the first 2.
As I said before:
Seeing it that way means that killing Rosa and Maria = Killing Leviathan and Belphegor = no 6th or 7th stakings.

How would you react in Evas position?

Last edited by Kiltias; 2012-11-03 at 19:31.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:22   Link #31086
qno2
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?
Six people definitely entered through 'this front door'
The six people were already dead by the time they were discovered!

All were killed by other people!
All six were genuine victims, and did not take part in a mutual murder!
That was my point with unconfirmed identities, yes. In the same way that Erika didn't exclusively demand to know who's in the cousin's room, and was satisfied with "everyone else".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Even with Kyrie alive there can be 6 dead people in the chapel and 6 being dead when discovered.
As in:
The 6th Person dead in the chapel being Kinzo, not among the 6 at the table but the chapel being his resting/hiding place in EP 2.
You beat me to this one. I was just about to go to bed (european here) when this realisation struck me, causing me to reboot my PC... didn't see the whole deal about the food however, good catch.

Of course no one is hiding because Kyrie is in plain sight. Though having Kinzo's body move over to the chapel is very unusual without a meta-reason but oh well...


Guess we're well on our way to create a new theory besides Shkanon and Rosatrice. Though I wonder how many adults could now count as culprits throughout the first four episodes, now that the 1st twilight of EP2 leaves room for one...

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-03 at 19:34.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:55   Link #31087
Kiltias
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post

Though having Kinzo's body move over to the chapel is very unusual without a t the first four episodes, now that the 1st twilight of EP2 leaves room for one...
Why move over?
He was there the whole time.
People believe he is alive when he is dead, the body has gotta be somewhere seeing that he was used as a fake victim.

And wasn't it that whenever used as fake victim it was in the Main Mansion which is the closest to the Chapel?
Hardly see him being left there let alone the Hidden Mansion.
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Old 2012-11-03, 19:58   Link #31088
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Though I'm more talking about Meta-Beato (depending on how you look at that matter = Itsuko/post-1986-Yasu) covering up than Author-Yasu. From the illusion of the witch to Shkanon basically. Doesn't mean that this line of thought can ignore the first two episodes though, since we received the red from Meta-Beato, not the author.
The original author would still keep her original intent.

Yup, didn't really express myself well in my last post, sorry.
It's okay but I think even meta-Beato wanted Battler to figure her heart out, not Prime.

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Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Wouldn't really speak against the Witch/Shkanon hiding the truth from Battler and Ange actually, since all the speculation still spoke about the "Witch Serial Murder", not "White-Haired Demon Murder".
The point is that before people were accepting the police's theory of an incident, while the messages raised the suspicion someone did it and caused the people to speculate and, among the speculations, the Rudolf family culprit theory grew interesting.

So, although the Kyrie culprit isn't now the sole theory going on, people are considering the possibility she andRudolf were culprits while first it was dismissed as an incident. I see this as a worsening of the situation, not as an improving it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Personally I never saw a point in author-Yasu throwing out her stories anyway, regardless of whether she planned a murder game, an actual mass murder (actually, there it could have a purpose: "to keep them alive for all eternity in stories" ... yeah) or nothing at all, so I generally don't believe they served any real purpose - it was an emotional act. "Ah, just like in 'And then there were none'. Maybe someone will someday find them and discover my twisted and confused heart. Tell me, dear reader I will never know, what path should I take? I will be too late however. So please, just understand me." Which would imply that the whole incident wasn't really anything she planned, all just a weird accident and coincidence as it tends to happen in stories.
If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").
Ep 5 more or less answered to this, comparing Beato (and therefore Yasu) to a shy girl in love who's afraid to declare herself and yet is trying to write a love letter and even Battler commented she went at it in such a roundabout way that her message risked being impossible to get.

There's to say Yasu is defined as shy and part of her message involves her having a wound that makes her body impossible to love so maybe she didn't feel like telling this openly.

That and Ryukishi needed an excuse to set up his plot, which I find, in points like this one, a bit weak.
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Old 2012-11-03, 20:32   Link #31089
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The only plausible murder motive in the entire series is Kyrie's motive to kill Asumu, especially if you read between the lines a little bit. Even then, that's so unfathomably specific that it isn't generalizable as a culprit theory; Kyrie's motive is so plausible only because we actually know exactly who she wants to kill and why. If you remove the cause or the victim, there's no more motive.
What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.
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Old 2012-11-03, 21:32   Link #31090
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.
It's an interesting find.
So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...
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Old 2012-11-03, 23:19   Link #31091
Kealym
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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Wasn't it that not a single name was mentioned in regards to EP2s 1st Twilight?
I would argue that this doesn't work since there was a VERY CLEAR implication of who "the six" referred to. In fact, those reds are a response to Battler saying "Dad and the rest blah blah blah".

On a more semantic level, "the six" have to be dead upon discovery, and Kanon's case is arguable, but Genji and Rosa are never discovered dead in EP2, by your theory. The read about the six being "genuine victims" is a direct response to Battler's "One of the six was the culprit, and this person killed the other five, then pretended to be dead."

Lets look back at some events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Who are the ones that knew about the "Guest"?
Rosa,Kyrie,Shannon,Kanon,Gohda and Genji.
I like to point something out.
Kyrie was the one who blurted out about the guest that appearantly those 6 only saw.
It resulted in a (bleep)storm just when dinner was served.
Kyrie told Gohda to ask Genji about this (despite she saw him with her, unless that was Anime only) and Nanjo left with him for no real reason given.
Natsuhi told Nanjo to take the kids along.
But who are left behind:
The ones in the chapel.
Quibbles, here.
Kyrie blurted out "I thought there was supposed to be a special guest", and didn't mention actually having SEEN her until Rosa claimed seeing her, first.
Secondly, Ghoda never saw Beatrice. He was informed by Genji.
Thirdly, Kumasawa knows as well, since she was in the kitchen during Ghoda's rant about it.
Thirdly, Nanjo left because he did not belong in the adults discussion. The children were told to leave, and Nanjo announced he would go with them, in that order. Why would he stay around during the siblings arguments?
Fourthly, though the passage of time is rather vague, everyone seemed to be well into their dinner. The kids all said they were in the process of eating, several lines refer to dinner "moving along", and Natsuhi makes a point of making sure dessert will be sent to the kids in the Guesthouse.

Also, Jessica has several asthma attacks, unless you mean to say that Kratsuhi makes regular practice of poisoning their daughters, and only their daughters, food every now and then.

Of course the ones remaining were the ones in the chapel - it's a consistent opening that the adults, or at least a lot of them, are killed together on the first night. They're always grouped together for the conference, and they would be the largest obstacle to the murders going off smoothly.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
Yes one could argue "Nowhere does it say the 7th and 8th need to be staked", then again I point to that completely contradicting the existance of 7 stakes or the MO of the first 2.
As I said before:
Seeing it that way means that killing Rosa and Maria = Killing Leviathan and Belphegor = no 6th or 7th stakings.
EP4 also only used 5 stakes. And in Our Confessions there isn't even a death at the second Twilight, and only 5 stakes are used, as well - it seems to me that "tear apart the two who are close" just means there's a lot of wiggle room for what actually happens at that stage.

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Originally Posted by Kiltias View Post
And wasn't it that whenever used as fake victim it was in the Main Mansion which is the closest to the Chapel?
Hardly see him being left there let alone the Hidden Mansion.
It's in the main mansion because that's where the furnace is, most like. I doubt the one in the Guesthouse would work since it's a much newer building, and what would be the point of chucking him into Kuwadorian?

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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...
It WAS pretty heavy handed to have him drop dead like 5 minutes after giving everything to Yasu. But ... from Ryu's perspective, he pretty much HAD to die like that, or obviously he would've announced stuff to the entire household and his lawyers and stuff, in the morning.
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Old 2012-11-04, 00:36   Link #31092
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What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...
The timing of the remarriage and Ange's birth leads me to believe that Kyrie was pushed over the edge because she had actually become pregnant already. She would've killed Asumu if it meant legitimizing her child with Rudolf (and thus her relationship with him). He wouldn't be able to marry her if his wife were alive (and Ange would've been a bastard and Kyrie a single mother), so this is the perfect impetus for Kyrie's hatred of Asumu to finally boil over and force her hand.

Likewise, Rudolf wouldn't have any reason to marry again that quickly unless he was under a particular deadline. What seemed to bother Battler was the suddenness of that action. Rudolf and Kyrie don't normally act hastily, so there'd have to be a reason for that. They have to marry fast or it will become increasingly obvious that Rudolf was cheating on his late wife. Unfortunately, by marrying fast they also become suspicious, although Battler seems to have missed the signals and assumed it was for a different reason.

I forget how explicitly Kyrie brought this up, but I vaguely recall her dancing around the exact rationale in her talk with Jessica in Dawn. She may have said that outright at some point and I just forgot about it. Either way, it seems pretty obvious. Unfortunately it also makes Asumu's death seem incredibly convenient, which makes you wonder whether Kyrie was telling the truth that her death miraculously didn't require Kyrie to do anything. If it's true, then it becomes very suspicious as it means that Kyrie was essentially "blessed" by both Lambdadelta (with the certain will to kill Asumu) and Bernkastel (with the miracle that Asumu would die without Kyrie having to dirty her hands).
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Old 2012-11-04, 02:19   Link #31093
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One thing that I find interesting about the chapel murder is it is one of the only places where everyone is confirmed to be dead and not the culprit.

There are 11 people left so 11 new possible theories.

Shkanontrice - Canon

Shannontrice - Easier more manageable version of Shkanon.

Kanontrice - You just have to get past his deaths and you are golden. Funny enough Shannon is only said to be dead once in the story while Kanon is dead multiple times. Makes you wonder if Shannon's only death is her real death.

Gohdatrice - Perfect Flawless theory.

Genjitrice - Just no. If someone could work together a Genjitrice theory then I would be impressed.

Kumasawatrice - Might be possible although Episode 1 is a problem.

Nanjotrice - Works out pretty nice for 2-4 but Episode 1 is a problem.

Georgetice - Not a bad candidate for the culprit. He always lives till near the end and is almost never confirmed dead.

Jessicatrice - She's in the same boat as George.

Mariatrice - Well she certainly almost always lives near the end but she almost always has an alibi. Considering this game is Japanese I wouldn't be surprised if the culprit was the creepy little girl.

Rosatrice - Not going to talk about this.

Regarding the whole motive for Kyrie, you would really only need a Motive for Rudolf considering Kyrie said she would do whatever Rudolf asked her to do EVEN MURDER her whole family. I feel like Ryukishi was having a field day when he wrote that line.
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Old 2012-11-04, 03:12   Link #31094
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Except what if Kyrie is the culprit and Rudolf isn't? You don't have to tether the two to each other like EP7 does.
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Old 2012-11-04, 03:20   Link #31095
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Kyrie also says, repeatedly, that she's always tried to be the brains for Rudolf because she thought that's what he wanted. Everyone else also acknowledges that Kyrie is smart and nearly every Kyrie/Rudolf plan is confirmed to have been her idea.

So I think we need to look at the motive for her, because it seems like she can convince Rudolf of things if she needs to and the idea will generally originate from her. Which isn't to say Rudolf even actually has to be involved, but if he is, it's probably because of her direction rather than the other way around.
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Old 2012-11-04, 03:57   Link #31096
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Originally Posted by GuestSpeaker View Post
What reading between the lines did you do? I thought it was pretty explicit...


As for Kinzo in the chapel, sorry but

All six were killed by other people

we know from other ep's that Kinzo cannot be said to have died in this manner, and in fact likely died of natural causes.

Also I didn't quite get the food thing.
Judging from EP7 you could say that he died because of Yasu. Kind of a stretch in semantics there but that's what it takes to make an alternative theory to Shkanon I suppose. Can't be more ridiculous than some of the Rosatrice-stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kealym
I would argue that this doesn't work since there was a VERY CLEAR implication of who "the six" referred to. In fact, those reds are a response to Battler saying "Dad and the rest blah blah blah".
There is also pretty clear implication who "everyone else" refers to in EP6. Then Shkanon happened.


Problem for this development is why she'd kill Rudolf then. Even in her "worst possible incarnation" in the TP of EP7 she wouldn't have done that. Guess we can assume he didn't go along with the murders after all? Setting aside that Kyrietrice is not an intended solution anyway of course.

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Originally Posted by jiblue1
So, although the Kyrie culprit isn't now the sole theory going on, people are considering the possibility she andRudolf were culprits while first it was dismissed as an incident. I see this as a worsening of the situation, not as an improving it.
That's why I can't really see Yasu having any other reason than her 'emotional issues' (and a bit of romanticism, throwing a letter into the ocean with your darkest secrets, deepest fears, hopes and her confession of love written therein; in hope somebody, maybe even "that special one", might find them...) for throwing the original letters out into the ocean.

Let's assume she actually tried to influence the afterworld in some way or fashion relating to the incident she might've known something about/tried to start herself: It's not like she could've predicted how the letters would affect anything really, if they're even found. Maybe no mystery movement would be created, maybe someone would solve it the moment he/she lays eyes upon them, maybe somebody just considers it toilet paper, maybe everyone except her will he considered a possible culprit and goats start gnawing away at the illusion of a happy family causing Ange unbelieveable pain, etc.

So even if she knew that a mass murder is about to happen it's hard to imagine how she tried to use the letters for her's or anyone's benefit. Heck, if we take the last example it might be the easiest to assume she did it out of anger towards Ange for leaving their little witch-society - and that's pretty harsh for something as little as that. Better to assume they had no 'logical' goal in the first place I think (at least I can't find one).
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Old 2012-11-04, 04:29   Link #31097
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Thirdly, Nanjo left because he did not belong in the adults discussion. The children were told to leave, and Nanjo announced he would go with them, in that order. Why would he stay around during the siblings arguments?
Furthermore, the very thing they are arguing over is a lie Nanjo is UP TO HIS NECK IN. I think that is what Will was getting at in ep 7, because chances are that time in the parlour is NOT the only time Eva asked him about Kinzo. With everything Krauss and Natsuhi had at stake, they weren't cracking, and with the family barely recognising that the servant's exist (they don't even look at their faces) he is the next logical choice to pressure. If I were him I'd be getting the heck out of there too, before the family asked me what my last medical exam actually consisted of.
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Old 2012-11-04, 05:44   Link #31098
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It's an interesting find.
So should we assume Yasu killed him as well? Personally I can't say I was satisfied by how his dead was handled in EP 7 but I admit I've accepted it as natural... though maybe she killed him in the sense she refused to forgive him and this broke his heart more than she stabbed/poisoned/shoot/strangled/whatever him...
When the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel!

So using Kinzo as the extra body doesn't work unless he was murdered, and murdered inside the chapel by a culprit who was also inside the chapel. And since Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games! his murder would have had to taken place on an earlier date. Of course, depending on interpretation, this is all technically possible, in much the same way a George family solution was possible in Bern's game in EP8.

But still, the idea that Kinzo was actually murdered originally is interesting. The timing of his death in Yasu's story always did seem contrived.

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If she wants to be understood, why did she try everything in her might to hide herself? Good question, Dlanor's little speech at the end of Our Confessions might relate to it (about how Beatrice claims that "if only 1 in a 1000 can understand me that is enough").
I think it does. It's supposed to be a coy confession of love, right?

Just realized that that's probably a hidden double meaning in the title Our Confessions...

Anyway, from the perspective of Ikuko=Yasu and post-incident authorship, the bottle stories could simply be an extravagant way for Ikuko (Yasu) to write to Touya (Battler) anonymously.

-------------------------------------------------

So, I was thinking I would like to open a discussion on Our Confessions. Namely, what is it? Does such a story exist in Prime in the first place (even if unfound/unreleased)? If so, when was it written? Based on the meta-notes, which refer to the Siestas and Gaap, it was conceived at least after Banquet and probably Alliance. Assuming the meta-narrative follows the same timeline as Prime, that makes it impossible to be a genuine authored-pre-incident bottle-story. Yet it was thematically presented as such.

Then there's Dlanor's role. What does it mean for Dlanor to release the incomplete manuscript after Beatrice's death? Who, or what mechanism is Dlanor representing here?
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Old 2012-11-04, 07:26   Link #31099
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But still, the idea that Kinzo was actually murdered originally is interesting. The timing of his death in Yasu's story always did seem contrived.
That reminds me of Kinjo's third game, where Nanjo was secretly poisoning Kinzo for a long time before that and the shock of seeing Beatrice finally finished him off.

But anyway, wouldn't the main problem with Kinzo being used as a corpse in the chapel be that he looks nothing like Kyrie anyway? I mean, there's a Knox rule against characters being disguised as other characters without clues.

Regarding Our Confessions, I'd have to go back and check over the parts that reference the Siestas and Gaap, but Yasu and Maria DID originally invent those characters, so I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that she could have used them in other message bottle stories that were never found.

But I think the whole dynamic between Dlanor and Beatrice is more of a metaphor for Ryukishi's own decision to release the story, rather than a representation of something in-universe. That is, Ryukishi was originally not going to release any more hints and accept the fact that some people would never accept the solution, but he changed his mind and released Our Confession out of his desire for more people to come to the truth. That's how I see it, anyway.
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Old 2012-11-04, 07:51   Link #31100
qno2
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Originally Posted by Drifloon View Post
But anyway, wouldn't the main problem with Kinzo being used as a corpse in the chapel be that he looks nothing like Kyrie anyway? I mean, there's a Knox rule against characters being disguised as other characters without clues.
He doesn't really need to actually. If we use our most "beloved" excuse for 'fake-murders', death-make-up, then Kyrie would be just sitting there with the others - relying on a certain psychological effect on part of the witnesses. If you see a scene as gruesome as this, you'd probably just assume that they're all dead without looking too closely. Same reason why Battler mentioned during the 1st twilight in EP1 that there are more corpses than he has fingers on one hand - he just saw something resembling a corpse (maybe a broom with Shannon's stockings and shoes at the end) and assumed that it's another one.

Of course, the "death-makeup" is a shitty excuse for anything buuuut at least we're aware of it.

Kinzo's remains would just sit wherever they are until someone decides to get rid of them. Regarding the visit that George and pals give them later (since Kyrie would need to go off and do her thing): highly unreliable scene to begin with and Kinzo could now take Kyrie's place, taking advantage of the darkness

Did we twist the story enough?
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