AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-11-04, 08:14   Link #31101
Drifloon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
So Kinzo's remains have been in the chapel all this time? That's kind of brilliant, actually.

It just goes to show how you really can make anything work with the red if you try hard enough.
Drifloon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 08:35   Link #31102
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Actually the red when the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel! is really a bane for this line of thought.

Okay, maybe we can twist semantics in a way that makes Yasu "the reason" for Kinzo's death as portrayed in EP7, the "culprit", but why did he die in the chapel then? Did he ask to be brought there in his dying moments? That's kind of stretching it, there are no hints. If anything we could say that Kinzo might think that a chapel, especially the one he build for himself and Beatrice, is a fitting place for his end. After all, he has finally reunited with Beatrice - therefore he can walk through the chapel-doors together with her.

Setting aside that Kyrie definitely wouldn't be there, so we'd need to assume that "the culprit" refers to the culprits of their respective "crime" (in quotationmarks for Yasu); therefore it'd refer to both Yasu AND Kyrie... again, this is stretching it.

But considering the basis of this theory, that Shkanon, Yasu's self-insert, is taking the blame for a crime she didn't even commit in those stories (of course only in relation to this theory), it'd be fitting to call her just a "culprit" (mind the quotationmarks), while Kyrie, the one she is supposedly covering for Battler's and Ange's peace of mind, is a culprit (mind the lack of quotationmarks) - both of them could be seen as one.

This kinda WMG-ed out of control. Completely.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-04 at 08:51.
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 09:43   Link #31103
Valkama
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Well really the only way to get Kyrie out of the chapel is to say that someone else was dead in her place. This is the only way to get really anyone out of the chapel. Going through EP2's red truth that mention's people by name we get.

This morning, Rosa definitely took an envelope out of Maria's handbag, and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel

The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing

Kanon was killed in this room

No one exists in this room except all of you. 'All of you' refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room


[Whoops, the corpse of] Jessica is also included

Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off

Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them

There are a few more red Statments with Rosa's name in EP4 but they aren't too significant.

So everyone's name was mentioned meaning the only way to get Kyrie out of the room is the same she inherited a name. I actually remember Battler using this argument with Kanon. So perhaps when you disguise as someone you inherit their name. (Would definitely make Shkanon nicer. Like every time Yasu dressed up as Kanon/Shannon she inherited their names rather than switching personalities). In this instance Rosa = Kyrie is possible. Someone should look through EP2 and see if their are any clues to Kyrie = Rosa.

Last edited by Valkama; 2012-11-04 at 10:08.
Valkama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 09:52   Link #31104
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkama
So everyone's name was mentioned meaning the only way to get Kyrie out of the room is the same she inherited a name. I actually remember Battler using this argument with Kanon. So perhaps when you disguise as someone you inherit their name. (Would definitely make Shkanon nicer. Like every time Yasu dressed up as Kanon/Shannon she inherited their names rather than switching personalities). In this instance Rosa = Kyrie is possible. Someone should look through EP2 and see if their are any clues to Kyrie = Rosa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2
Totally (non)serious solution: Or is Rosa a title that belongs to the best mum ever? Finally that red (or was it just a blue that wasn't denied because Beato wasn't really in the mood?) from EP4 really means something! Kyrie earned herself the title of best mum ever in EP2 and is henceforth known as "Rosa".
Kyrie deserves being called "best mum ever". Though this one beats KNM's explanation of Kanon's 'death' in EP1 in terms of being ridiculous, maybe there are some serious hints.

Why can't she get out though (geniune question, been a while for me since I read EP2)? Apparently, if we want to take any hints from the magic scene of George & pals, it seems to be possible to unlock the door from inside. If in doubt, bring some strange mechanisms from the shed. In any case, is there any red that seals "those in the chapel" that I've forgotten?
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 10:07   Link #31105
Valkama
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Why can't she get out though (geniune question, been a while for me since I read EP2)? Apparently, if we want to take any hints from the magic scene of George & pals, it seems to be possible to unlock the door from inside. If in doubt, bring some strange mechanisms from the shed. In any case, is there any red that seals "those in the chapel" that I've forgotten?
By out of the chapel I mean make her not dead considering Beatrice says six people are definitely dead inside the chapel and they are all victims. She never states names so it's possible someone inside is not who they appear to be.
Valkama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 10:59   Link #31106
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Which is why we're discussing the possibility that Kinzo was "killed" ( = died because of the actions of someone else) back then inside the chapel, which actually isn't entirely without hints: wasn't it said that the chapel exists so Kinzo could walk through the door together with Beato? It has a certain "beauty" to it if he did it with Beato the third, just to die in there. Both a "wedding" and a funeral. Of course, in its essence this is another semantic cheat, I'm not saying that it is a good solution. In fact it seems kinda impossible to get Kyrie out of there without some rather outlandish ideas.

Therefore we'd have our sixth victim, Kyrie would be alive, and not in hiding because everybody saw her (another semantic cheat).

The approach of inheriting a name was actually cut down anyway, wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EP4, ????
The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
A different person cannot claim his name!
Their conversation is also implying that this whole idea is kinda ridiculous. Of course this is Umineko, can' t make assumptions.

Nonserious approach: Maybe "Kanon" is the 'name' of the clothes, then you could switch to being Kanon via dressing up. Gives brands a whole new meaning, if you wear, say, Calvin Klein you ARE Calvin Klein. Deep statements about the nature of "you are what you wear", thank you Ryukishi. What was the name of Rosa's brand again? Clearly we have found x, an unknown label! ... okay, enough joking around, sorry.

(warning, wild mass guessing incoming) They didn't use it on Kinzo though so it might be possible to use it on him... as in, becoming the head. Which might explain why Kinzo was so active (considering he's dead) in that episode... maybe one of the six took on his name, gained the position of the head (in that case... the gold has been found after all, hints exist). So Kyrie did indeed "die" (dealing with the issue that the six had been clearly specified), and became Kinzo. Which would also deal with all the issues we'd have with, you know, the servants and setting up the banquet.

...

...

This is getting silly. Blasted red. I apologize.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-04 at 11:19.
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 13:23   Link #31107
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Now we know Kyrie still holds a grudge against Asumu and that, by default, she transferred it on Battler as well. Why not to ruin Battler's love story as payback to Asumu?
George had been able to see Battler and Shannon together. Kyrie had not.

George would have wanted to hurt Shannon with his actions. He would have been able to see Shannon perk up a little when she heard that Battler had written letters; whatever Battler might have felt about her, whether Battler would ever return, George might be able to tell that she was carrying a torch for Battler, and that Battler was still a rival of sorts.

How exactly is Kyrie supposed to think she's ruining Battler's love story? Again, it's a girl he hasn't had contact with for three years, to whom he has made no effort to contact, to whom he wrote the letter only on somebody else's suggestion, for whom he declined his opportunity to see, whom Battler will, in all likelihood, never see again, at an age when "greatest love ever" turns to "we are so splitsville" in a week. There's no love story to ruin. (Alternately, if Asumu was anything like Eva, hooking Battler up with an orphan maid might be just as good of revenge.)

(Really, I think it's most likely that Battler never wrote a letter to Shannon. It's typical for Fukuins to leave after 3 years, and it would have been Shannon's seventh year on Rokkenjima. For all Battler knew, Shannon might have left years before.)
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 13:24   Link #31108
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
One thing we know for a fact: All seven of the adults were in the chapel before midnight, when Beatrice met with them in that scene. Rosa included. So just going by a general purpose everybody-is-who-we-think-they-are argument, Rosa at the very least was aware of where everybody else ought to be. Since we don't know who was said what to and when in the chapel, or when everybody in it died, we run across an obvious problem where we know Rosa (or if you want to be insane, someone who appeared to be Rosa) left the chapel at some point. And that's about all we know.

However, if we're going to bother twisting the red into knots for something this silly, why not go all out? We already know that the official solution more or less acknowledges that dead doesn't necessarily mean physically biologically dead. So what if dead is merely incapable of distinguishing between "story" death and actual death? In other words: The six adults in the chapel were intended to be "dead" but not actually dead as part of a murder game perpetrated by Yasu. Rosa may or may not have been aware of this (either her sickness was genuine because of the quality of the makeup, or she didn't know it was fake). The adults were "killed" by the "culprit" of the story, Beatrice. This was all according to the plan.

This is supported by Kanon died in this room! because we know that Kanon was not biologically killed in Jessica's room. Rather, the "character" of Kanon "died" there. It's impossible for him to have actually physically died there. Actually, Turn makes this really easy because it never makes a blanket death declaration for anybody. It says they were "killed," but not that they "are dead."

If Beatrice's red makes no distinction between her "script" and actual murders, it's possible for somebody who is considered to have "died" in the story to still be alive... but it's also possible to kill them anyway, which is what Erika does in Dawn. As a result, there would be several people who potentially could still be alive after "dying" as long as it's somewhat ambiguous whether they really died. The First Twilight being the most obvious one:

Legend: Kyrie, Rudolf, Gohda, Krauss, Rosa, and Shannon are all never seen again after the FT. Kanon is never seen dead by Battler. The deaths of Eva/Hideyoshi and Genji/Kumasawa/Nanjo seem really hard to fake in any way, but I guess they're not seen again after their death is witnessed once.

Turn: The six in the chapel could have been faking (though if one was a culprit he or she could've real-killed the others later). Jessica's position makes it possible her death could well have been a story death. Kanon is never seen again. It seems unlikely that George/Gohda/Shannon are faking it, but there are also no murders after Shannon dies.

Banquet: The six in the closed room chain (Kinzo aside) are obviously potentially able to stay alive and only Shannon is ever seen again by anybody (and in the intended solution very clearly was still alive). Kyrie/Rudolf/Hideyoshi could have been faking. George probably not. Nanjo... most likely not but probably? Rosa and Maria definitely not.

Alliance: Well, basically anybody could've been alive right up until the time Battler found their body, and he only finds a couple of bodies before 6 AM of the 5th.

There is a certain delightful appeal in the idea that Shannon would've killed herself in a closed room to cast suspicion away from Kyrie after George and Gohda were killed (and she was perhaps wounded), only to have Kyrie wreck the whole thing by inviting Battler up to the study at the end to reveal her master plan, which would've broken Battler psychologically. But she isn't the only person who can actually stay alive by story-death red evasion. The obvious point is that so can Shkanon, which appears to be the intended solution. So could Jessica though, as she's alive in every episode if we consider Turn a story death. Granted, it'd be hard for her to be a culprit in most episodes because she's with Battler the whole time.

The biggest issue I have with Kyrie is actually her phone call in ep4. If she's the culprit why is she trying to embrace the magical narrative? Then again, maybe not... what if Shannon gets the drop on Kyrie, forces her at gunpoint to spin an outrageous story to Battler (so that he will not blame Kyrie), shoots her, and then goes to kill herself at the well?

A random note: Except in Banquet, Kyrie would always potentially be party to Beatrice's initial "hey this is what I'm gonna do you guys go along with it OK?" meeting. She also would've been in on anything discussed in the dining hall in End and in whatever discussion happened to fake a First Twilight in Dawn. However she's, once again, not the only adult who could've been in on that.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 13:57   Link #31109
qno2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall
But she isn't the only person who can actually stay alive by story-death red evasion.
Indeed. This doesn't change regardless of whether we use a discrepancy between story/event or, in regards to the 1st twilight EP2, name switches or Kinzo being the 6th.

The only difference between Kyrie and, say, Gohda, is how her possible involvement would change the perspective on Chiru as a whole quite a bit, creating a strong link to EP8 in particular - it would add to the story, instead of making you wonder why half of the story even exists. Something that a lot of other characters don't have to that degree: maybe Gohda could do it all. I'd question Ryukishi's sanity though.

But alas, it's just silly talk anyway - t'was fun to work out a ridiculous solution via the red though, similar to the good ol' times of theory-crafting. Oh woe upon us, if we could forget the intended solutions and start again from square one.

Last edited by qno2; 2012-11-04 at 14:10.
qno2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 16:05   Link #31110
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
It WAS pretty heavy handed to have him drop dead like 5 minutes after giving everything to Yasu. But ... from Ryu's perspective, he pretty much HAD to die like that, or obviously he would've announced stuff to the entire household and his lawyers and stuff, in the morning.
Personally I found Kinzo's death in EP 7 one of the worst parts in Umineko as for me it's like... it's not realistic enough. Mind you, I'm not denying the possibility something like this happened but it seemed so... timely that it left me with an 'uh?' feeling. It really seemed too convenient and perfect that... I don't know, although possible it doesn't feel real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The timing of the remarriage and Ange's birth leads me to believe that Kyrie was pushed over the edge because she had actually become pregnant already. She would've killed Asumu if it meant legitimizing her child with Rudolf (and thus her relationship with him). He wouldn't be able to marry her if his wife were alive (and Ange would've been a bastard and Kyrie a single mother), so this is the perfect impetus for Kyrie's hatred of Asumu to finally boil over and force her hand.

Likewise, Rudolf wouldn't have any reason to marry again that quickly unless he was under a particular deadline. What seemed to bother Battler was the suddenness of that action. Rudolf and Kyrie don't normally act hastily, so there'd have to be a reason for that. They have to marry fast or it will become increasingly obvious that Rudolf was cheating on his late wife. Unfortunately, by marrying fast they also become suspicious, although Battler seems to have missed the signals and assumed it was for a different reason.

I forget how explicitly Kyrie brought this up, but I vaguely recall her dancing around the exact rationale in her talk with Jessica in Dawn. She may have said that outright at some point and I just forgot about it. Either way, it seems pretty obvious. Unfortunately it also makes Asumu's death seem incredibly convenient, which makes you wonder whether Kyrie was telling the truth that her death miraculously didn't require Kyrie to do anything. If it's true, then it becomes very suspicious as it means that Kyrie was essentially "blessed" by both Lambdadelta (with the certain will to kill Asumu) and Bernkastel (with the miracle that Asumu would die without Kyrie having to dirty her hands).
Well, Battler knew Rudolf was remarrying because Kyrie was pregnant and that this meant Rudolf had been cheating Asumu, so it's possible that Kyrie planned to kill Asumu when she found out she was expecting Ange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Kyrie also says, repeatedly, that she's always tried to be the brains for Rudolf because she thought that's what he wanted. Everyone else also acknowledges that Kyrie is smart and nearly every Kyrie/Rudolf plan is confirmed to have been her idea.

So I think we need to look at the motive for her, because it seems like she can convince Rudolf of things if she needs to and the idea will generally originate from her. Which isn't to say Rudolf even actually has to be involved, but if he is, it's probably because of her direction rather than the other way around.
I'm sort of wondering if things went like this:

Rudolf: Sure thing it would be really wonderful if I didn't have to share the inheritance with my siblings.

Kyrie: Yes, dear, I get what you wish me to do. Now please go get me an axe.

Rudolf: An axe? what for?

Kyrie: I'm going to slaughter your siblings as you wished. Now be a dear and help me murder them.

Rudolf: As I wish?

Kyrie: *waving axe* Yes, dear, that's what you wished just two second ago but don't think toa hard at it now and just follow my plan.

Rudolf: Well, after all you're the one who's smart so if you say I want this I probably do... now, where do we start?

Okay, so it probably didn't go like this but it's still interesting.

On a side note I've always wondered if Ange had really been left by her maternal grandparents because of a cold or because she was taken somehow as an hostage.

EP 4 goes to great lenghts to paint them as pretty ugly people who wouldn't hesitate to kill Ange so maybe Rudolf and Kyrie were desperate because the Sumadera were blackmailing them demanding a huge amount of money?
It would explain why they couldn't just content themselves with sharing it but they needed it all and because they would be willing to go to such great lenghts.
Rudolf is painted as pretty deep in troubles in Umineko and it would fit with the idea there are things from which Ange 'must be protected'.
It would be bad enough for her to know her parents killed her relatives but, if they had to do it, it'll be even worse.
It would also explain why Eva took Ange in instead than just leaving the daughter of the couple who killed her husband and son to the Sumadera, allowing her to become the new Ushiromiya heir.
Sure, blood isn't water but in Japan isn't so uncommon to adopt a heir and Eva could also have tried to get another child.
It'll explain also the amount of guards around Ange who previously apparently had none and the same applies to George who apparently went to a less secluded school. Sure, Eva is rich and now she doesn't have such a nice reputation, but only now she feels the need to have guards checking on her niece when her son was apparently left free to go around unguarded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
So, I was thinking I would like to open a discussion on Our Confessions. Namely, what is it? Does such a story exist in Prime in the first place (even if unfound/unreleased)? If so, when was it written? Based on the meta-notes, which refer to the Siestas and Gaap, it was conceived at least after Banquet and probably Alliance. Assuming the meta-narrative follows the same timeline as Prime, that makes it impossible to be a genuine authored-pre-incident bottle-story. Yet it was thematically presented as such.

Then there's Dlanor's role. What does it mean for Dlanor to release the incomplete manuscript after Beatrice's death? Who, or what mechanism is Dlanor representing here?
Well, for personal preference and according to the theory Yasu= Ikuko I like to see Our Confession as something that Ikuko/Beato started to plan/write let's say around the middle of EP 4 then got discouraged and dropped middle way due to what happened in EP 4.

Another option is that Our confession was really a story written by Yasu pre incident, but one she didn't finish/didn't release so it remained on Rokkenjima. Toya might have found a way to snuck on Rokkenjima and might have found it, either unfinished or incomplete.

A 'nice' theory would be that the police found it later on Rokkenjima along with... let's say Shannon's diary in which she details her plan to have a mystery game based on the mystery stories she wrote, possibly along with the fact Kinzo was already dead. The police might suspect someone hacked it or that something went wrong during it so they continued investigations in secret as they possibly can't say if everyone who was on Rokkenjima is dead and hope to use it as a trump card to get a confession or something.
So they keep this info as a secret and, at the same time, they didn't need to investigate further on Shannon or the messages because they already knew she was behind them but believed she was merely organizing a game.

However as no other survivor came up and they can't connect Eva to the crime due to lack of proof and lack of a confession from her side, the third message goes forgotten (or placed in Dlanor's custody if you prefer).
Then, years later, possibly after Eva's death, a policeman might end up talking about it, disclosing it to someone else.

Or they might have believed her innocent and have felt pity for her (a young servant girl, who was orphaned, who was about to marry with someone she loves, who innocently wrote mystery tales and that, due to an horrible coincidence ended dead along with everyone around her and people by mistake even suspected her mysteryfantasy tales to be a retelling of the truth) so they didn't want to let the public know she was behind whose messages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
Actually the red when the six were killed in the chapel, the culprit was inside the chapel! is really a bane for this line of thought.

Okay, maybe we can twist semantics in a way that makes Yasu "the reason" for Kinzo's death as portrayed in EP7, the "culprit", but why did he die in the chapel then? Did he ask to be brought there in his dying moments? That's kind of stretching it, there are no hints. If anything we could say that Kinzo might think that a chapel, especially the one he build for himself and Beatrice, is a fitting place for his end. After all, he has finally reunited with Beatrice - therefore he can walk through the chapel-doors together with her.

Setting aside that Kyrie definitely wouldn't be there, so we'd need to assume that "the culprit" refers to the culprits of their respective "crime" (in quotationmarks for Yasu); therefore it'd refer to both Yasu AND Kyrie... again, this is stretching it.

But considering the basis of this theory, that Shkanon, Yasu's self-insert, is taking the blame for a crime she didn't even commit in those stories (of course only in relation to this theory), it'd be fitting to call her just a "culprit" (mind the quotationmarks), while Kyrie, the one she is supposedly covering for Battler's and Ange's peace of mind, is a culprit (mind the lack of quotationmarks) - both of them could be seen as one.

This kinda WMG-ed out of control. Completely.
Considering that to reach the gold you had to pass through the chapel it's possible that Yasu wasn't taken to Kinzo's room all dressed up as EP 7 says but that she met him in the chapel.

Though I honestly doubt Kyrie was supposed to be a culprit for EP 1 & 2.
She might have had some chances to kill someone in Ep 3, 4 & 5 but I don't think that's the case with Ep 1 & 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
George had been able to see Battler and Shannon together. Kyrie had not.

George would have wanted to hurt Shannon with his actions. He would have been able to see Shannon perk up a little when she heard that Battler had written letters; whatever Battler might have felt about her, whether Battler would ever return, George might be able to tell that she was carrying a torch for Battler, and that Battler was still a rival of sorts.
George didn't know about Battler's letter until Kyrie mentions it. She hands him an envelope that contains several letters. He pulls them out and hands them. Shannon witnessed the whole thing along with Jessica, Kyrie, Rosa and Maria. Although Jessica, Kyrie Rosa and Maria likely didn't watch him carefully Shannon most likely did. After he handed out the letters one by one after reading the name written on the envelopes (in order they are George's, Jessica's, Maria's and Ange's) he handed the empty, big envelope to Shannon who checked it was really empty. Note that George and Jessica opened their letters right then.

Now I think it would be pretty troublesome for George to hide a letter all of sudden while Shannon and other people are watching him when he doesn't even know if said letter is the first, the second or the third he'll pull out. Only way he could do it is if there wasn't a letter for him so he claimed Shannon's letter was his but then why shouldn't Battler write him when he even took care to write Ange and Maria?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
How exactly is Kyrie supposed to think she's ruining Battler's love story? Again, it's a girl he hasn't had contact with for three years, to whom he has made no effort to contact, to whom he wrote the letter only on somebody else's suggestion, for whom he declined his opportunity to see, whom Battler will, in all likelihood, never see again, at an age when "greatest love ever" turns to "we are so splitsville" in a week. There's no love story to ruin. (Alternately, if Asumu was anything like Eva, hooking Battler up with an orphan maid might be just as good of revenge.)
Yet we know that after 6 years, when he learnt Shannon and George were together he regretted not coming back and felt jealous so he definitely felt something for her.
And I've already explained how Kyrie might have figured out Battler had a special liking for Shannon.
Now, personally I wouldn't have thought Shannon was still obsessing over Battler after 6 years in which neither of them tried to contact the other and a new boyfriend who's willing to marry her but if she's doing it why Battler couldn't have had feelings for her after 3 years and no girlfriend in sight?
He also likely needed time to cope with his mother's loss so maybe it's not so weird he didn't feel like being social. Now things are calming down and he might have thought: "What about Shannon? Did she ever liked me?"
Because mind you, Shannon thinks Battler promised her something but all she did promise to him was she'll give him an answer, one that might be 'yes' but that also can be 'no'. There's no promise from her part in fact he said he would accept whatever decision she would take.
And we go back to the sentence I quoted about girls rarely answering to questions.

Kyrie on the other side might not know that the letter was Battler's attempt to contact Shannon after 3 years, she might just have noticed he didn't consider her the same as the other maids. By reading the letter she would know if she was right or wrong and, as I said, there was a perfect cover up story to explain why the letter had been open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
(Really, I think it's most likely that Battler never wrote a letter to Shannon. It's typical for Fukuins to leave after 3 years, and it would have been Shannon's seventh year on Rokkenjima. For all Battler knew, Shannon might have left years before.)
Personally, if Battler hadn't implied he had feelings for Shannon, that he still felt something for her, he wasn't Kyrie's son who couldn't let go of the man she wanted not even after he married and had a kid with another woman and we didn't have Shannon who remained hooked up to Battler despite 6 years of no contact and another man (and another woman if we consider Jessica) in her life I wouldn't have considered the possibility either of them still had feelings for the other.
They were kids for crying out loud, kids who barely saw each other during the year. However in the Umineko world all this doesn't count and we even have George who stubbornly set himself on stealing Battler's childhood crush not mentioning he's much older than Shannon and really shouldn't be interested in her. Isn't he 5 years older? Would a boy his age care about the attentions of a child of Shannon's age?
So in Umineko's world apparently love has no age and it can't be swayed so easily (that or the Ushiromiya have a pretty obsessive personality so, once they decide on a person they can't move over).

Of course it's also possible Battler didn't think Shannon was still working there. He was surprised when he found out she was still working there after 10 years.

It's just there's space in Umineko to built up a theory about Battler writing a letter and that letter not reaching Shannon for a reason that's not George.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-04, 17:24   Link #31111
Valkama
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Going off of the idea of Kyrie and Rudolf being the intentional red herring culprits, the whole thing about the 'heart' would make a lot more sense. Considering it's sorta possible to put Kyrie as responsible for all the killings, perhaps her lack of motive is Ryukishi's way of letting the player distinguish from Ryukishi's fake solution from his intended solution.
Valkama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-05, 06:25   Link #31112
GuestSpeaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Quote:
Personally I found Kinzo's death in EP 7 one of the worst parts in Umineko as for me it's like... it's not realistic enough. Mind you, I'm not denying the possibility something like this happened but it seemed so... timely that it left me with an 'uh?' feeling. It really seemed too convenient and perfect that... I don't know, although possible it doesn't feel real.
I always thought this was less "Shannon revealed herself to Kinzo and then he died" and more "Kinzo was dying so Genji revealed Shannon to him". Genji throws some serious hints Shannon's way about the epitaph, and most certainly knew the solution, so I assumed he just orchestrated the meeting because Kinzo was on the outs.
GuestSpeaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-05, 09:21   Link #31113
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
His death is itself still portrayed as fairly intensely farcical, though. He sort of goes from being fine to dropping dead on the spot. It'd have maybe felt a little less stupid if Kinzo was rather clearly on his deathbed at the time and just sort of slipped away after he saw what he wanted. If it was meant to be a metaphor or something I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of it was.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-05, 15:07   Link #31114
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
His death is itself still portrayed as fairly intensely farcical, though. He sort of goes from being fine to dropping dead on the spot. It'd have maybe felt a little less stupid if Kinzo was rather clearly on his deathbed at the time and just sort of slipped away after he saw what he wanted. If it was meant to be a metaphor or something I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of it was.

Exactly.
It could have also worked if he went to bed, maybe promising he would aknowledge her to everyone the day after and then never wake up.

I've always wondered if the whole thing didn't suffer of a huge embellishment in the narration. Maybe it was in front of Kinzo that Nanjo and Co mentioned Yasu's wound, she started going to hysteric, Kinzo grew agitated and this caused him to have a heart attack.
And here you've Yasu 'killing him' without even meaning to which could worsen her psychological problems as she would feel she's the one to blame for the dead of the father she so wanted to have.
Never mention that if afterward she demands to know why she'd been kept away from him the answers she can get are either

-Natsuhi might have tried again to kill you
-Kinzo might have taken advantage of you as he did with your mother

or both. That's something that surely doesn't help a person to calm down.
However we don't know if Kinzo was present and still alive when Yasu went into an 'I'm furniture' mode and we've no idea how Genji explained her why she wasn't raised by her father.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-07, 11:46   Link #31115
Ryuudou
Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Does the "ninth twilight" occur at the end of October 5th, or the end of October 6th?
Ryuudou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-07, 12:46   Link #31116
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Supposedly, the explosion is keyed to Midnight, or 00:00 of October 6th. Which is 24:00 of October 5th. Saturday is the 4th, Sunday is the 5th. The game ends at the end of Sunday/start of Monday.

EDIT: Random thought rereading "Forgery no.XXX." Ronove mentions having been with Evil Battler in a couple of forgeries, notably Trinity and Land. One thing I was wondering... while we don't know specifically what the contents of Land were, can we infer from that TIP that it may have contained a Battler culprit theory? The "Battler" that is in that particular TIP is the evil/Black version, who represents that theory.

Battler specifically brings this up with Ronove, pointing out that if he's present in the forgery that means that his piece can "run wild," and that he wants to be the one to kill the family. He also suggests this is his role and that it's different from the normal Piece-Battler's role.

So from that, if he was present in Land, then it would seem that the regular Piece-Battler would not be. Was then the design of Land supposed to feature an unreliable narrator Battler who was actually the culprit, with Vergilius as the detective? A sort of proto-End?
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error

Last edited by Renall; 2012-11-07 at 13:57.
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-07, 15:17   Link #31117
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Seems like it. It also seems to indirectly imply that Battler Culprit Theory would've thus been the red herring answer we're meant to dismiss in the larger narrative instead of Eva Theory.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-07, 20:01   Link #31118
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Supposedly, the explosion is keyed to Midnight, or 00:00 of October 6th. Which is 24:00 of October 5th. Saturday is the 4th, Sunday is the 5th. The game ends at the end of Sunday/start of Monday.

EDIT: Random thought rereading "Forgery no.XXX." Ronove mentions having been with Evil Battler in a couple of forgeries, notably Trinity and Land. One thing I was wondering... while we don't know specifically what the contents of Land were, can we infer from that TIP that it may have contained a Battler culprit theory? The "Battler" that is in that particular TIP is the evil/Black version, who represents that theory.

Battler specifically brings this up with Ronove, pointing out that if he's present in the forgery that means that his piece can "run wild," and that he wants to be the one to kill the family. He also suggests this is his role and that it's different from the normal Piece-Battler's role.

So from that, if he was present in Land, then it would seem that the regular Piece-Battler would not be. Was then the design of Land supposed to feature an unreliable narrator Battler who was actually the culprit, with Vergilius as the detective? A sort of proto-End?
It's possible. Though it's also possible that the name 'Land' was chosen just because fans knew it and that the Land mentioned in the tip and the original Land had nothing in common...

Or that Black Battler is just a piece for the fantasy side, sort of like EvaBeatrice isn't Eva. In the fantasy side we'll see Black Battler going around killing people while in truth the killer is always Yasu. Though yes, we'll need someone else to play detective.

Really, I would like to read Land... unless Land is actually the mystery in Our Confession...
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-08, 02:04   Link #31119
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by qno2 View Post
There is also pretty clear implication who "everyone else" refers to in EP6. Then Shkanon happened.
Late response is late, but those two situations are only vaguely similar, in that the group members aren't strictly listed by name (like "Kyrie's group" in EP4). The differences, which are pretty meaty, are that
1. "everyone else" is a group that should comprise of people who aren't in either of the other two groups, which cumulatively account for all 18 people, and
2. "everyone else" is resolved with Shkanonigans, which I wasn't aware Kyrie had access to.
Kealym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-11-08, 09:23   Link #31120
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Really, I would like to read Land... unless Land is actually the mystery in Our Confession...
Fairly certain it is not for several reasons.
  • We know Land was supposed to contain a male Virgilia in a sort of detective role, maybe similar to an Erika-type character. Our Confession's forgery doesn't really have this.
  • If "Forgery No.XXX" is accurate, Battler may have been the culprit of Land or at least that would have been a theory which would likely have been advanced in Land. Our Confession makes no such suggestion, even of Battler as an accomplice.
  • Beatrice and Dlanor suggest the forgery in Our Confession is more a draft of sorts. Land was, at least according to Twilight, a fully-fledged story that was lost.
  • Land was supposedly very difficult, but the mystery in Our Confession seems about on par with Turn or Banquet. Ryukishi supposedly abandoned Land for ep3 because of his concern that the audience might not respond well to its difficulty, and it seems unlikely that would've been the major concern were this the story he was going to use.
  • It wouldn't suit the idea of Land being "lost" for him to just reveal it, and if he did reveal it, why wouldn't he just call it Land or a draft thereof and make that abundantly clear to everyone? He gains nothing from providing a forgery that might be Land if his goal was to stop questions about it by releasing the outline.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.