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Old 2012-11-06, 11:17   Link #2161
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Eh, the EC system certainly has its drawbacks, but it has its plus too.
Like what?

The EC's greatest flaw is that it randomly grants citizens of half a dozen states the power to decide the election, while everyone else gets ignored.

A citizen of Ohio has literally more than 20 times the voting rights of a Texan or a New Yorker. Is that what you call a Plus?
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Old 2012-11-06, 11:27   Link #2162
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Like what?

The EC's greatest flaw is that it randomly grants citizens of half a dozen states the power to decide the election, while everyone else gets ignored.

A citizen of Ohio has literally more than 20 times the voting rights of a Texan or a New Yorker. Is that what you call a Plus?
I don't think they foresaw certain states being in permanent lockdown for a particular party to the point where it makes every election super close when they designed the system. I believe it was designed with the idea that people might actually be informed and vote for the candidate and not the party.
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Old 2012-11-06, 11:29   Link #2163
creb
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The only good thing about election day in America is if you're one of those lucky individuals who gets the day off (I am ).

While stupid people buying into democracy as a form of government doesn't bug me, I don't think I'll ever get over seemingly intelligent people who actually think the system (at the national level at least), is anything more than a pressure-relief valve for controlling a society. And, when I have otherwise intelligent friends get engrossed in this back and forth between Obama and Romney, I just shake my head.

At least in the past, once elections were over, I could regain my rational friends for a few years, but increasingly with the 24/7 news cycle, it's becoming a neverending election, even after a person "wins", and good friends continue their pointless back and forth non-stop stick-it-to-'em soundbites, without a break from one election day through the next. In so many ways I find the early promise of the internet that we all had in the early 90s as this vehicle for bringing the world together has done exactly the opposite.

When we were generally isolated to our immediate communities, we compromised to peacefully co-exist with each other, but today's online global community made it much easier to find people with one's views, and compromise went out the window, as people have little incentive to try to work things out with billions of other people available to choose from to act as their perfect sounding board if any particular person happens to inconveniently fit one's quaint views on the world. Partisanship, not just in politics, is the dark underbelly of the increasingly online society of today.

Oh well. The weather looks great today. Taking my two nieces to the beach (their parents unfortunately do NOT have the day off, heh), where I'll continue to educate them in the proper way to grill steaks and body-surf; far more important issues than which idiot becomes the next hand-puppet in chief.
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Old 2012-11-06, 11:34   Link #2164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
At least in the past, once elections were over, I could regain my rational friends for a few years, but increasingly with the 24/7 news cycle, it's becoming a neverending election, even after a person "wins", and good friends continue their pointless back and forth non-stop stick-it-to-'em soundbites, without a break from one election day through the next. In so many ways I find the early promise of the internet that we all had in the early 90s as this vehicle for bringing the world together has done exactly the opposite.
I think Facebook and Twitter (Twitter in particular for enforcing this idea that all instances of communication must be within a certain number of characters or less) have done by far the most damage here. I miss the 90's when I didn't have to see the facebook and twitter logo plastered all over everything and news reporters reading tweets from random idiots thinking anyone gives a damn. In my case I just want real news and information from somebody that clearly knows what they are talking about. Is that too much too ask for from our society?

In any case I basically agree that our culture has metaphorically and perhaps literally taken a dump in the last 12 years. There used to be at least some charm and sense of dignity to western civilization, but not really anymore. Now it's just big loud and obnoxious and all about assaulting and insulting you with bad ideas be it our entertainment industry, our information industry, our politicians, everything about our society just feels disingenuous and misguided these days from the top almost completely to the way down where we can maybe find some solace in the company of friends and family. This is an election thread though so I'll best leave it at that.
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Old 2012-11-06, 11:50   Link #2165
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Like what?

The EC's greatest flaw is that it randomly grants citizens of half a dozen states the power to decide the election, while everyone else gets ignored.

A citizen of Ohio has literally more than 20 times the voting rights of a Texan or a New Yorker. Is that what you call a Plus?
Actually, the EC's greatest flaw is that it effectively disenfranchises the minority voters in states that heavily leans one way or the other.

That being said, here are several things to take into account. Remember, the US is not one homogenous nation-state, it is a federation of states, and the EC system is borne out of that, as it helps to make sure that smaller states do not become irrelevant, and that the candidates have to at least attempt (or pretend) to care about their interests.

If you remove the EC, all that's going to change is that urban centers in states with large populations will get all the attention.

It's certainly not a system without flaws, but it also wasn't something someone just pulled out of their arse either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
While stupid people buying into democracy as a form of government doesn't bug me,
Don't try to be condescending/smug/holier-than-thou or anything
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Old 2012-11-06, 11:55   Link #2166
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Actually, the EC's greatest flaw is that it effectively disenfranchises the minority voters in states that heavily leans one way or the other.

That being said, here are several things to take into account. Remember, the US is not one homogenous nation-state, it is a federation of states, and the EC system is borne out of that, as it helps to make sure that smaller states do not become irrelevant, and that the candidates have to at least attempt (or pretend) to care about their interests.

If you remove the EC, all that's going to change is that urban centers in states with large populations will get all the attention.

It's certainly not a system without flaws, but it also wasn't something someone just pulled out of their arse either.
What you just described has nothing to do with reality. Which is that half a dozen smaller states are the only ones that matter and big states don't have ANY voting rights.

Here, this is a picture of real America. Note that if your State is not visible then you don't have any voting rights.
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:07   Link #2167
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What you just described has nothing to do with reality. Which is that half a dozen smaller states are the only ones that matter and big states don't have ANY voting rights.

Here, this is a picture of real America. Note that if your State is not visible then you don't have any voting rights.
Or you can lay off the hyperbole and actually try to look at the matter objectively

You realize you're claiming that literally people in 38 states do not vote or cannot vote? based on $$ value of advertisement spending no less? Do you really want to go there?

Look, no one is saying the EC system is without flaws, but please turn off the reality distortion field, it doesn't really help you make your case any better.

A good place to start would be, say, actually giving some sort of supporting arguments based on logic that refutes my points, instead of an outright dismissal that also claims I'm apparently unable to see reality.

Unless you're just looking to pick a fight.
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:15   Link #2168
Dr. Casey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Or you can lay off the hyperbole and actually try to look at the matter objectively
A Vallen post without hyperbole? That's hard to imagine...

And that image says that Californians can't vote even though whichever candidate they support is automatically about 20 percent of the way towards becoming president. lol @ that
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:17   Link #2169
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
A good place to start would be, say, actually giving some sort of supporting arguments based on logic that refutes my points, instead of an outright dismissal that also claims I'm apparently unable to see reality.

Unless you're just looking to pick a fight.
Your argument is that the EC protects smaller states from bigger ones.

But that's not one person, one vote. And it does not protect small states that are safe states, or make large states less powerful. All it does is to empower swing states, which is not related to population size and is in no way related to spreading electoral attention.

If the goal of EC is to spread political influence across the country, it failed. Because the math made it clear that swing state votes are worth 20 times more than safe state votes.

If you really want to have truly fair representation nation wide, then popular vote is still the best way. Sure, smaller states would have less votes, but they would also be cheaper to influence. Promising a million dollars to Alaska would help the people there more than promising a million dollars to Texas, as Alaskans get a larger share of the money per person.
Quote:
A Vallen post without hyperbole? That's hard to imagine...
Ah, I do wonder why you randomly post things that literally made no sense too. So I guess we are even.
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:21   Link #2170
Dr. Casey
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Indeed.

I forget, is the chick in your sig from Gurren Lagann?
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:24   Link #2171
willx
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Re: Above -- C'mon guys, personal.

Major TV News Networks Agree To Shield Early Exit Poll Data On Election Day

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2081523.html
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:25   Link #2172
Ithekro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post


Mayans didn't have leap years. Their actual projected end of the world date was something like October 2011.
Leap year is irrelivant, the planet makes the same number of sun ups and sun downs regardless of what name is assigned to it. Remember the Mayans didn't assigne the name of the dates...the Westerns did based on the end of the Mayan cycle, which would be on a Winter Solstice.

It is bunk anyway, but the "its wrong becaus of leap year" is incorrect bcause those that assigned a date to "the End of the World" simply figured out which day that was based on the sun ups and sun downs.
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:26   Link #2173
Dr. Casey
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There goes Ithekro again, desperately trying to deny that the world is ending in 45 days.
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:30   Link #2174
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb
While stupid people buying into democracy as a form of government doesn't bug me, I don't think I'll ever get over seemingly intelligent people who actually think the system (at the national level at least), is anything more than a pressure-relief valve for controlling a society.
Real policy differences have real effects on the ground. Real schools get funded or not. Real wars happen, real people die, real civil legislation gets passed or rolled back, making the difference for millions of the disenfranchised and discriminated; if nothing else, real people in key positions can be the difference between a nuclear war with a giant "fuck you, humanity" and a peaceful resolution to a flashpoint.

Maybe the economy is something which governments have far less effect on than most people think they should, but even then a nation's tax code and regulations are always a factor. Or maybe if you vote in enough of the socialists (don't look for them in America, though) you may actually get a real transformation of how things work for better or, probably, worse.

Maybe Obama is not anti-corporatist enough for you (hell, he's a center-right candidate for all I see), maybe the Democrats are pissing you off with their continual allegiance to Hollywood and the MAFIAA. Or maybe it's the other way around and you think the Republicans aren't doing enough tearing off the government, maybe you think "they're all the same" and certain Washington truisms will never be challenged from within however much you want to see that happening, lobbyists thrown to the dogs or something, well fair enough.

But please don't think you're being superior by not voting. Your protest is heeded by no one. If you're sick enough of the system, vote for some third party candidate, then object, revolt, resist, whatever you need to do, or yes, just give up. Most people do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama View Post
In any case I basically agree that our culture has metaphorically and perhaps literally taken a dump in the last 12 years. There used to be at least some charm and sense of dignity to western civilization, but not really anymore.
It was never any good. Don't think in terms of nostalgia now.

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Anyway, since I'm a Nevadan, supposedly my vote counts. I'm off to do my share, I guess. :/
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:41   Link #2175
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Your argument is that the EC protects smaller states from bigger ones.
No, I said it prevents them from becoming completely irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
But that's not one person, one vote.
Like it or not, the US is not a direct democracy, and the EC system is one of the layers of protection against tyranny of the majority, in this case the ability of larger states/specific region's interest to completely dominate others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
And it does not protect small states that are safe states, or make large states less powerful. All it does is to empower swing states, which is not related to population size and is in no way related to spreading electoral attention.

If the goal of EC is to spread political influence across the country, it failed. Because the math made it clear that swing state votes are worth 20 times more than safe state votes.
What you're describing would not change even with a popular vote system. "Swing area" will continue to exist, and the heavy campaign focus would still be in those areas, while the traditional strongholds will continue to receive less attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If you really want to have truly fair representation nation wide, then popular vote is still the best way. Sure, smaller states would have less votes, but they would also be cheaper to influence. Promising a million dollars to Alaska would help the people there more than promising a million dollars to Texas, as Alaskans get a larger share of the money per person.
That analogy doesn't really work for me, it's not score-keeping where you're tracking campaign promise in monetary terms. Different regions have different interest and priorities that they want to see represented, many of which cannot be measured in monetary terms, nor should they.

Look, let me reiterate this again, I'm not saying the EC system is perfect, because it isn't, all I'm saying that it was designed for specific reason and purposes, and that a popular vote system also have its flaws as well, though I wouldn't object if switch to it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
There goes Ithekro again, desperately trying to deny that the world is ending in 45 days.
Weren't you supposed to be dead since last year already? dead people can't argue!
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:47   Link #2176
Ithekro
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Cycles are for repeating, not ending.


The Native Amerincans say the Mayan cycles would bring a big change, but the cycle would start over.


As for the Electoral College. Remember that when it was made, there were still many states that did not choose the President by popular vote at all. The Electorate were picked by the State Government (usually the state legislature) and they picked the President. The popular vote might have influenced them, but I doubt it. (In the Election of 1832 you can see South Carolina give 11 electoral votes to someone that wasn't even running for President)
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:55   Link #2177
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
There goes Ithekro again, desperately trying to deny that the world is ending in 45 days.
And are you hoping for the world to end in 45 day
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Old 2012-11-06, 12:59   Link #2178
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Just for amusement, those who have a NicoNico Account and know the language can watch the Japanese talk about the POTUS election Live.

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv113...p&zroute=index
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Old 2012-11-06, 13:03   Link #2179
Grifis
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It's great to have vote day off. I'll be spending my day watching dramas and anime. The dog and pony will be over soon enough.
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Old 2012-11-06, 13:12   Link #2180
james0246
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Just finished voting. It took all of 5 minutes .
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