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Old 2012-11-06, 09:13   Link #381
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
So the big questions are.
-Why make accusations if the case seems to be not really clear in the first place?
-Does the "innocent until proven guilty" suddenly not count anymore?
-Is Himiko really giving the impression to just abondon her friends like that without even calling for help?

Innocent until proven guilty does not apply from my perspective in cases of rape. Himiko is not giving any impression as we haven't seen her side of what happened afterwards. The language being used is not in favor of her being the caller. If she was the caller, someone (the police) would have told the friends by the time the trial happened. The anger that the friends had is suggesting otherwise. So i'll still think that she wasn't the caller. It could be that she was too scared etc. We can agree to disagree since you guys didn't think of this scenario.


Quote:
Which human being with a conscience and that is not a monster would do that in the first place?

There are prob a few girls who would do stuff like this for money. The world is not a nice place.

Just like.. there were more than a few people who jumped at a chance to be given 100,000 yen to see their worst enemies disappear.
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Last edited by orion; 2012-11-06 at 09:24.
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Old 2012-11-06, 10:30   Link #382
Kaioshin Sama
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Man they sure did a good job of making Himiko looks utterly lost and helpless throughout this episode ultimately dependent on the kindness of strangers for survival. Come to think of it it's been one tough break for her after another pretty much since she was first introduced kind of making her this shows official emotional punching bag character up to now.
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Old 2012-11-06, 15:46   Link #383
Dauerlutscher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Innocent until proven guilty does not apply from my perspective in cases of rape. Himiko is not giving any impression as we haven't seen her side of what happened afterwards. The language being used is not in favor of her being the caller. If she was the caller, someone (the police) would have told the friends by the time the trial happened. The anger that the friends had is suggesting otherwise. So i'll still think that she wasn't the caller. It could be that she was too scared etc.
Yor first sentence demonstrates that you are biased and have no intention to think rationally and judge people/make akkusations even when there is no base for that. This automatically disqualifies you for a further debate.

Quote:
There are prob a few girls who would do stuff like this for money. The world is not a nice place.
It just doesn't fit with how Himiko was pictutred from the author.

Quote:
Just like.. there were more than a few people who jumped at a chance to be given 100,000 yen to see their worst enemies disappear.
What i saw was a couple of girls full of hate that blamed Himiko for what happened, she was the one that took them there in the first place, and they hated the fact that she was the only one who could escape.
Quote:
We can agree to disagree since you guys didn't think of this scenario.
I didn't think of this scenario simply because it doesn't make much sense to me at all.
Overall, your opinion to what happened is the complete opposite to mine. So i have to agree to disagree.
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Old 2012-11-06, 17:46   Link #384
Dengar
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I'm just slightly disturbed that there are actual people who seem to think that Himiko deserved what she got because she had the gall to not get raped with the rest of them.

Seriously, that's what you're saying when you say "she shouldn't have run away". Because not running away brings us the logical result.

Saying it's her fault for getting them into that situation is even worse. Are you implying she did it on purpose?? That she knew what was gonna happen?
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Old 2012-11-06, 18:46   Link #385
Myssa Rei
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Oh we're not thinking of that at all. However, Himiko herself thinks she deserves all that she's getting. There's an important distinction there.
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Old 2012-11-06, 20:28   Link #386
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher View Post
Yor first sentence demonstrates that you are biased and have no intention to think rationally and judge people/make akkusations even when there is no base for that. This automatically disqualifies you for a further debate.
Of course there is a bias. I live in an area with date rape drugs. I just don't see the evidence the way you guys do. If there is more evidence, then I'll change my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I'm just slightly disturbed that there are actual people who seem to think that Himiko deserved what she got because she had the gall to not get raped with the rest of them.

Seriously, that's what you're saying when you say "she shouldn't have run away". Because not running away brings us the logical result.

Saying it's her fault for getting them into that situation is even worse. Are you implying she did it on purpose?? That she knew what was gonna happen?
Well....when you got to a party you assume that the place is "safe". Since she was friends with one of them that would be a natural assumption if you're not in an environment with date rape drugs. So those girls are going to partly blame Himiko as there was a delay with her getting there. It looks like a setup from their perspective.

Now Himiko only needed to get to a safe area and then call. That was the point I was making since there was a gang rape in progress with the girl actually being conscious which made the situation worse.
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Old 2012-11-06, 23:59   Link #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Innocent until proven guilty does not apply from my perspective in cases of rape.
So women can just say that a man raped them and the man should go to jail until he proves that he himself is innocent?
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Old 2012-11-07, 10:32   Link #388
orion
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Originally Posted by Egoplant View Post
So women can just say that a man raped them and the man should go to jail until he proves that he himself is innocent?
That's usually what happens where I live.
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Old 2012-11-07, 17:07   Link #389
Shadow5YA
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"Innocent until proven guilty" is never true, even in court. A defendant can given a "not guilty" verdict, but that is not the same as being innocent. "Not guilty" means the defendant is not directly responsible for whatever specific charges they are being tried for. "Innocent" means the defendant has no knowledge, awareness, involvement, or relation to the case whatsoever.

"Not guilty until proven innocent" is merely the the scientific/statistical model of null hypothesis testing in a court of law, where your objective is to find evidence to disprove that a certain event happened by chance and are unaffected by the variables you are testing (aka, the "null hypothesis").

In Himiko's case, I don't think there's enough evidence to prove or disprove that she abandoned her friends or was directly responsible for them getting raped. However, I really don't think objective evidence matters in this case: if Himiko's friends are angry enough to want to blame her, they can condemn her to this island without having to be rational.
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Old 2012-11-07, 20:20   Link #390
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Let's not forget that Himiko introduced those guys that gangraped her friends... definitely she could have done more, but it's understandable that she couldn't when ones about it rationally, which definitely won't be the case for girls who were raped by three guys each, while expecting a romantic date with celebrities. For all four (including Himiko), independent of circumstances, IMHO, they should have known better, but I think we have beaten that subject to death with AnoHana and Penguin already

Anyway, WTF were those mutant lizards... alligators and crocodiles were to banal for this setting
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Old 2012-11-07, 21:19   Link #391
Myssa Rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkuth View Post
Anyway, WTF were those mutant lizards... alligators and crocodiles were to banal for this setting
They're supposed to be komodo dragons. The manga was squite specific on that point, even mentioning their poisonous (due to bacteria) bite. The anime... didn't get that across very well, ahaha.
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Old 2012-11-07, 22:03   Link #392
Dengar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Now Himiko only needed to get to a safe area and then call. That was the point I was making since there was a gang rape in progress with the girl actually being conscious which made the situation worse.
And she did just that. Besides, even if she hypothetically somehow magically called the police while still in the building, the result would still be the same, don't forget that. Police can't teleport to the scene.

Seriously I'm not sure what to think of the lengths you go to convince people that she deserved it. Even going so far as to call it a setup?
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Old 2012-11-07, 22:16   Link #393
Myssa Rei
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I'm not sure where you're getting the opinion that we think she deserves to get sent to the island. SHE herself thinks that, because on some level she believes it's her fault. We just keep pointing that out.
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Old 2012-11-07, 22:33   Link #394
Ken Sanders
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1st point: Yes, I agree. You can't blame Himiko for being afraid, right? It happens to everyone. Those girls are inconsiderate, especially Miho, banishing her friend for that reason. That girl is lucky to be saved by the Police before she got drugged and such; hell, even if she got raped, at least she lived to see the day rather than being turned into sex slaves. See what I mean!

And yet, those girls have the nerve to banish her just like that! What kind of friends are they?

That is the worst kind of people out there!!! Who do you think those girls are? Do they have such right to condemned her for what she hasn't done. Girl, she's also a victim just like you. I'd say it's also Mihos' fault for not knowing the kind of guy he admired. That guys' face is full of ill intentions.

The girls got raped but their lives were spared but banishing Himiko and gets big wad of cash in exchange: I'd say "Go to HELLLL you bitches!!!" How dare you call yourselves her friends!!!!
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Old 2012-11-07, 23:29   Link #395
orion
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Seriously I'm not sure what to think of the lengths you go to convince people that she deserved it. Even going so far as to call it a setup?
I think that you need to reread what I actually wrote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
<snip>
Well....when you got to a party you assume that the place is "safe". Since she was friends with one of them that would be a natural assumption if you're not in an environment with date rape drugs. So those girls are going to partly blame Himiko as there was a delay with her getting there. It looks like a setup from their perspective.
*bolded by me*

I'm just stating an opinion. Not trying to convince anyone.

And..I already agree to disagree as we have beaten the horse's carcass until the bones have turned to dust on this topic.
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Old 2012-11-08, 04:21   Link #396
Dengar
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That only proves that the girls are clearly retarded and possibly insane or at the very least deserve zero respect whatsoever. They should be the ones on that island.


Either that, or they were jealous of her hotness and popularity to begin with and this was just a trigger to finally get rid of her. Ooh, look I just made the thing go full circle.
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Old 2012-11-08, 05:45   Link #397
frivolity
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I think the girls' reaction in sending Himeko to the island is understandable, albeit irrational. Even if Himeko did everything she could to save them, which is still unclear at this point, it is only natural for them to feel angry at her. She was the one who brought them to meet with the guys, and they wouldn't have become victims of sexual assault but for that. It is also arguable that she should have been more careful about introducing her friends to guys that she wasn't too familiar with.

Whether or not the girls were right in what they did and whether Himeko deserved to be sent to the island are different issues altogether, but I do't see their actions as being unbelievable.

Aside from that, there is no evidence in the anime or manga that jealousy over Himeko's looks and/or popularity played a part in it.
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Old 2012-11-08, 06:07   Link #398
Dengar
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I am sort of aware of that. However, if jealousy didn't play a part in it, then they sent her away for no reason entirely. So they are either insane or jealous. Unless there's something I overlooked.
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Old 2012-11-08, 06:25   Link #399
Myssa Rei
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How about anger? Is it that hard to imagine that, you know, they wouldn't be angry at what happened to them? Seriously, they've lost their innocence, their reputations are shot... those by themselves should be ample reason enough to feel vindictive. Also, I honestly think that nothing Himeko can say will convince them at this point.

And yes, this argument is getting circular. Let. It. Freaking. Go. Already.
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Old 2012-11-08, 16:15   Link #400
Dengar
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I guess I will just never understand the mind of some dumb teenage girls who do stuff that makes no sense. I am ok with this. Just don't ask me to not conndemn them for it.
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