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Old 2012-11-07, 10:40   Link #21
anime fan99
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about Kakashi going down After each time he use his Sharingan in Series one and each time he use his Mangekyō Sharingan in Shippūden Always bother me

I stopped reading this manga and watch anime after discovering I do not care about Naruto, Sasuke or for the new generation surpass the older generation

But the thing that made me say enough is enough was Tsunade wokeing up and Kakashi not becomeing Hokage
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Old 2012-11-07, 11:16   Link #22
Ulquiorra
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I really wonder where Kakashi gets all this chakra from.
Hashirama cells. Clearly Hashirama cells. And Gai is taking them too. There should be an investigation.

And I think the army got lost. Are they taking pictures along the way or something? Seriously, they were not that far away.

I feel the army is suppose to be the setup when "The Heroes" finally aren't allowed to have endless chakra, spout how determined they are, and pull attacks out of their butt against Madara and Tobi. That moment should occur in the next chapter.

If Kishi can give Gai and Kakashi fanservice, than who is to say he won't for the Konoha 12? Next thing Hinata and the bug guy will be smacking Susanoo around.
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Old 2012-11-07, 11:38   Link #23
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I had to laugh at Kakashi's 'is this related to Rin'.

Well no, it's actually because...you let Danzou die.
I think it implies that what Obita saw wasn't really what happened. Will probably get a reason when Kakaishi has his flashback.
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Old 2012-11-07, 11:54   Link #24
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Obito: You're trash
Kakashi: Yeah I'm trash
Obito: You're fcking trash !!
Kakashi: I just agreed with you...can't you be nice for 5 seconds?
Obito: NO!! You're trash !!
Naruto: I'm not trash!!
Obito: You're all trash!!
Naruto: I'll prove I'm not trash !!

This chapter was just full of trash =p
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:00   Link #25
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OMG people...shut up about kakashi's chakra already...

Kakashi has as much chakra as he needs to for the sake of the story...there is no further explanation for this, and one isn't needed either. It's manga...it doesn't have to follow the rules of reality, summoning to giant meteors from space or turning into a 500 foot talking fox is normal...but if kakashi uses his eye too much we need to have a investigation on plot holes...manga police...shut up.

As far as the chapter goes, decent artwork, decent action, not much story wise but it showed talking obito good may not be possible.

The question i have now is, can kakashi use obito's form of kamui now?
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:20   Link #26
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what did the rasenshuriken hit?
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:20   Link #27
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I can see it already obito being converted to Naruotism after kakashi reveals that rin told him to stab her cause the enemy would capture her and get secret intel then saskue comes to deal with madara
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:27   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Whitemoon648 View Post
Indeed it was a nice chapter . I don't know about others, but i am not really complaining per se but agree with what others have noted as a kinda big discrepancy. Which is how can the same Kakashi that used Kamui one or two times and was down, do it over and over with almost no consequences.

Also i am personally just noting this and have said that this will most likely be explained. This is kinda huge. Kakashi being able to spam Kamui actually makes him much stronger ( if i dare say close to Kage level). Against pain he died on second Kamui ( using too much chakra), When he absorbed that big Amaterasu he was bedridden for like weeks and finally when he used it one time ( just one time) against Sasuke he couldn't move. Now he has been spamming it non stop.

I personally didn't see any/much issue with this until this chapter. It's cool that maybe we get an additional kamui or two ( saying ok he is overexerting himself), but we have had like so many. Back in chapter 559, Kakashi was saying this will be my last Kamui and after 9 chapters ( few more Kamuis) and he is still at it.

So it's normal to really note it . As why people point out flaws ( i like to call it yet to be explained stuff in case of Kishi ) could be because this is a discussion thread for it .
so the entire deal is with kakashi using kamui more than he did before, well the simplest explanation to it is that, when someone is beaten again and again,later on he feels less pain when beaten again. And we all know that kakashi is very smart, he surely must be concentrating chakra at any moment he gets,
may be he already is at his limited, his body might be feeling great effects of it, but it's his will power that is keeping him together and haven't we seen rock lee do the same thing, even when rock lee's body was torn and his legs and hands were crushed he was still standing to continue to fight,and certainly kakashi can't give up now because of his lack of chakra, not when his friend who he believed to be hero and dead is standing infront of him alive as the villan

and what everyone calls plotholes or flaws, are just things which are later on explained, and it is because they are not explained at the very moment, when they are revealed we can actually see the significance of it.
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:46   Link #29
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So did Kakashi Raikiri hit or did Obito go through it? Cuz at one picture is Kakashi using the Raikiri then Obito is standing far away from them in the next picture. I don't get it.
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Old 2012-11-07, 13:35   Link #30
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I won't say your arguments aren't justified, but do keep in mind that the amount of chakra needed for Kamui varies according to the size of the targeted area. Remember that Kakashi concluded that at his present state he couldn't send away Asura Pain's whole body, only the missile that was going for Chouji. I bet he can use Kamui twenty times more if it's a needle instead of a person.
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Old 2012-11-07, 14:01   Link #31
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Originally Posted by mystogan View Post
and what everyone calls plotholes or flaws, are just things which are later on explained, and it is because they are not explained at the very moment, when they are revealed we can actually see the significance of it.
Or we just call it "fighting spirit" and be done with it. Not everything requires an explanation in shonen manga for 12 year old Japanese boys.
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Old 2012-11-07, 14:21   Link #32
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This chapter didn't advance the plot, but it gave some insight into the way Obito is thinking and that makes his past actions a bit more beliveable. Of course Obito's logic is kinda sick, so if we go by that logic everybody who is alive is trash, including himself and Madara and all others, therefore nobody's life matters any more. So he could even say that by causing Minato and Kushina's death he made them heroes instead being trash
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Old 2012-11-07, 14:49   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
This chapter didn't advance the plot, but it gave some insight into the way Obito is thinking and that makes his past actions a bit more beliveable. Of course Obito's logic is kinda sick, so if we go by that logic everybody who is alive is trash, including himself and Madara and all others, therefore nobody's life matters any more. So he could even say that by causing Minato and Kushina's death he made them heroes instead being trash
Actually, I believe that is the core of Obito's logic, everyone, including himself and Madara (in his view), are trash in the current world. by destroying everything and recreating the world in Madara's illusion, everyone will be reborn as "non-trash"
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Old 2012-11-07, 15:00   Link #34
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So basically, all Madara wants is a new world so he can have some fun with Obito.
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Old 2012-11-07, 15:09   Link #35
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OMG people...shut up about kakashi's chakra already...

Kakashi has as much chakra as he needs to for the sake of the story...there is no further explanation for this, and one isn't needed either. It's manga...it doesn't have to follow the rules of reality, summoning to giant meteors from space or turning into a 500 foot talking fox is normal...but if kakashi uses his eye too much we need to have a investigation on plot holes...manga police...shut up.

As far as the chapter goes, decent artwork, decent action, not much story wise but it showed talking obito good may not be possible.

The question i have now is, can kakashi use obito's form of kamui now?
That's pretty flawed and has always been bad reasoning when anyone talks fiction. Outside of the applied fictional rules in any series, book or movie, reality should apply. Just because a world has mystical dragons anda lot of the cast has the power to nuke a planet doesn't mean that a stab through the heart won't kill them, does it? It doesn't--a fatal wound is a fatal wound and 'but they have the power to nuke planets with one attack' wouldn't justify them not dying. Like I said before, reality applies outside the established fictional rules, it has to...

Kakashi's gimmick has ALWAYS been that he's skilled and level headed but his chakra levels are crap. He could barely use his mangekyo, much less his sharingan for a decent amount of time and now he's spamming it and people can't question it? It's one thing to enjoy a series, another to ignore flaws being contradicted for convenience sake...


Still waiting for Kakashi's flashback/hoping there's more to fill in the gaps left behind by Obito's flashback. If much isn't filled in and just ignored, then bleh. Can barely muster the strength to care for the 'story'/character development anymore, but at least Gai got a hit in on Madara, that was pretty epic
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Old 2012-11-07, 16:31   Link #36
Whitemoon648
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so the entire deal is with kakashi using kamui more than he did before, well the simplest explanation to it is that, when someone is beaten again and again,later on he feels less pain when beaten again. And we all know that kakashi is very smart, he surely must be concentrating chakra at any moment he gets,
may be he already is at his limited, his body might be feeling great effects of it, but it's his will power that is keeping him together and haven't we seen rock lee do the same thing, even when rock lee's body was torn and his legs and hands were crushed he was still standing to continue to fight,and certainly kakashi can't give up now because of his lack of chakra, not when his friend who he believed to be hero and dead is standing infront of him alive as the villan

and what everyone calls plotholes or flaws, are just things which are later on explained, and it is because they are not explained at the very moment, when they are revealed we can actually see the significance of it.
Plausible i guess.

But remember, Again pain, On kakashi's Second Kamui he almost died. Some even might argue that he died but he was brought back because of pain.

Any time Kakashi has used Kamui twice in a fight, he basically couldn't move anymore. The first time he could still but couldn't do much.

He has been doing it a lot. maybe like close to 10. It's an issue of will or getting hurt. It's an Issue of Chakra. If you use it up you die in Naruto world. I am not really that worried about it though. Imo Kishi will explain this eventually. Me and few others are just noting this.

Also the case of Rock lee and Kakashi is different. Rock Lee technique basically pushes his body to limit and thus can destroy it in process. Lee is still using the Chakra he has created from his technique. He has the Chakra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mystogan
and what everyone calls plotholes or flaws, are just things which are later on explained, and it is because they are not explained at the very moment, when they are revealed we can actually see the significance of it.
Yes this is something that i have generally/mostly agreed to. I don't recall ever calling it a flaw. Plot hole yes, flaw no.

Even in the post you quoted from me i said this , " ( i like to call it yet to be explained stuff in case of Kishi ) " .

The point of this thread is to discuss what we thought of the chapter and talk about it .

In anime/manga, generally the author(s) make certain set of rules to which they abides by and if they astray from it, it is either a plot hole or something to be explained later.

I don't know if you read Bleach or not, but if you do, you would most likely realize /know as why Bleach suddenly plummeted it. One of the main contributing factors of it ( Imo) is Kubo not staying within the boundaries of his own rules and just freely changing everything the way he wants without much explanation. Trust me, although it still has many fans, there are many who are very disappointed with it.

Mark of a great writer is to be consistent . They can write their story as fictional as they want and even make stuff up that are beyond imagination, as long as they are consistent their writing is generally considered good.

So that we are clear, i am a hardcore fan of Kishi-sensei's work and i have trust in him to wrap everything neatly by the end of the Manga. But going based on Kishi's rules, kakashi using so many Kamui is at the moment is a plot hole. When he closes the hole by explaining it, then it won't be. People who are saying this is not a plot hole at this point in time in the manga imho are in denial.

Feel free to disagree or agree .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama View Post
That's pretty flawed and has always been bad reasoning when anyone talks fiction. Outside of the applied fictional rules in any series, book or movie, reality should apply. Just because a world has mystical dragons anda lot of the cast has the power to nuke a planet doesn't mean that a stab through the heart won't kill them, does it? It doesn't--a fatal wound is a fatal wound and 'but they have the power to nuke planets with one attack' wouldn't justify them not dying. Like I said before, reality applies outside the established fictional rules, it has to...

Kakashi's gimmick has ALWAYS been that he's skilled and level headed but his chakra levels are crap. He could barely use his mangekyo, much less his sharingan for a decent amount of time and now he's spamming it and people can't question it? It's one thing to enjoy a series, another to ignore flaws being contradicted for convenience sake...


Still waiting for Kakashi's flashback/hoping there's more to fill in the gaps left behind by Obito's flashback. If much isn't filled in and just ignored, then bleh. Can barely muster the strength to care for the 'story'/character development anymore, but at least Gai got a hit in on Madara, that was pretty epic
Great post, well said. In general i am actually a bit biased toward Kishi and usually don't critic him. I even gave him a pass until when he helped Naruto destroy Obito's mask. Back then if i remember correctly he said it was going to be the last Kamui? I expected Kakashi to be in a really bad shape by that point. But i think at the end of the day, he will eventually give an explanation for this. If Kishi had introduced maybe a new Kakashi technique which gave him the ability to increase his chakra ( like gai's gates) at a cost, then that would be believable and consistent. But he hasn't done that. Now he has to do it a post explanation. I am very curious as what he comes up with . My Theory/prediction is their proximity. Since Kakashi and Obtio are close to each other ( Two eyes being close to each other) then maybe Kakashi doesn't need to use as much chakra or even can share some of Obito's chakra. If we assume that when Obito is closer to Kakashi, he can check through his eyes as well, maybe that has something to do with it.
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Old 2012-11-07, 17:13   Link #37
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Great post, well said. In general i am actually a bit biased toward Kishi and usually don't critic him. I even gave him a pass until when he helped Naruto destroy Obito's mask. Back then if i remember correctly he said it was going to be the last Kamui? I expected Kakashi to be in a really bad shape by that point. But i think at the end of the day, he will eventually give an explanation for this. If Kishi had introduced maybe a new Kakashi technique which gave him the ability to increase his chakra ( like gai's gates) at a cost, then that would be believable and consistent. But he hasn't done that. Now he has to do it a post explanation. I am very curious as what he comes up with . My Theory/prediction is their proximity. Since Kakashi and Obtio are close to each other ( Two eyes being close to each other) then maybe Kakashi doesn't need to use as much chakra or even can share some of Obito's chakra. If we assume that when Obito is closer to Kakashi, he can check through his eyes as well, maybe that has something to do with it.
Thanks and your highlighted explanation would be awesome and make enough sense to get by. Especially with Obito seeing through Kakashi's eye not too long ago in the flashback, we know the eyes have some connection still, beyond their powers, so I'd be happy with that.

Yeah, I didn't spazz on the manga series I was reading until recently. In Naruto's case it was when Itachi had that final flashback before passing away for the last time. The moment when he was talking to his parents and his parents just sat there and even praised his 'gentleness' just made me feel robbed.

Like all that time, the whole relationship with Sasuke and his father was so that Sasuke wouldn't turn out like Itachi, and Sasuke's father being the leader of the Uchiha (I believe...or was it head of their police? Can't recall), means he had a big part in the coup, but instead he just sits there and gets killed by Itachi in an accepting way for the sake of making Itachi the good guy in the end of the story...it just irked me. And then there was Chapter 599 screwing with the timeline of things and all that but... rant over haha.

Now that we're back to action though, guess it'll be a few chapters until kakashi gives his 'why I did it' explanation...so I'll just sit back and enjoy the action I suppose. Was kinda happy with Bleach's chapter because it WASN'T all about figting this week, so =D nice balance
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Old 2012-11-07, 17:26   Link #38
Whitemoon648
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Thanks and your highlighted explanation would be awesome and make enough sense to get by. Especially with Obito seeing through Kakashi's eye not too long ago in the flashback, we know the eyes have some connection still, beyond their powers, so I'd be happy with that.

Yeah, I didn't spazz on the manga series I was reading until recently. In Naruto's case it was when Itachi had that final flashback before passing away for the last time. The moment when he was talking to his parents and his parents just sat there and even praised his 'gentleness' just made me feel robbed.

Like all that time, the whole relationship with Sasuke and his father was so that Sasuke wouldn't turn out like Itachi, and Sasuke's father being the leader of the Uchiha (I believe...or was it head of their police? Can't recall), means he had a big part in the coup, but instead he just sits there and gets killed by Itachi in an accepting way for the sake of making Itachi the good guy in the end of the story...it just irked me.
Yeah . I think the connection of the eyes might be the key to this.

As for Itachi moment, let me share my take/interpretation,

His father maybe was disapointed at him because he thought he was being controlled by Danzo. At the end he became satisfied with him ( or at least probably didn't hold much grudge against him) because he choose his own path. Just a possibility .

On a side note, are his parents really dead? Who is Sasuke really going to meet? New character(s) or some one we already know.

I am guessing it is some one we already know. He had a shocked face in his face .
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Old 2012-11-07, 17:49   Link #39
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@Whitemoon648,(i'll just reply like this quoting the message will only make the page even more big) if you really want a very technical explanation then you have already thought of the the link between their eyes, it might be one possible reasons,but i still think that you won't just be lying around because your body has ran out of power, when the guy infront of you is trying to kill you,now let's get on with this now

And i had a thought about sasuke's future actions , i wonder if he is going to attack obito, he did tell itachi that after he kills him he is going after the guy who helped him that night
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Old 2012-11-07, 18:05   Link #40
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also, kakashi is not scrub, he does train when he has time. He has been shown training a few times in the manga, so he could have more from that alone. this is the same kakashi that just used his eye for 10 minutes and was unable to move for a day to being able to use it for a full day and be fine.

the plot gives him as much as needed, but his character is shown to be working on it in the past, so its simple to say hes been working on it when he can. if naruto can train alone at night with no one around, kakashi can do the same.
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