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Old 2012-11-07, 11:43   Link #1041
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
On another topic. The Firefly and a Sherman A1 76mm are the "boss" tanks that Saunders are using. Wondering if a battle with those would be difficult. I think being a flag battle makes things easier. Unlike the practice match with the british where they need to take down every single tank (including the thick armored Churchill tank) - this time if Oorai could somehow take down the Firefly, then the other tanks don't need to be dealt with anymore.
The Saunders flag tank is the 76mm unit. It and the Firefly are extremely powerful tanks at long range. Where the regular Shermans might have to approach to closer ranges to knockout the StuG III from the front, they can do so at 1000m for the 76mm and at any range for the Firefly. The caveat is that combat at longer ranges hasn't really featured in this show. The StuG III in turn is the only major threat on the Ooarai's side unless the girls in the Lee can rise to the challenge.

If Saunders was playing smart, they'd use their regular Shermans to flush out the StuG III and have the Firefly sit at 1500m picking off all other opponents. The 76mm Sherman just has to sit in a safe location away from the combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Ya know, I did address this by pointing out the availability of Japanese heavy weapons and superior logistics.
I know; I just trimmed the quote because it was long enough as is. My point is that whatever crappy rifle an infantryman is given doesn't really matter. In real combat, guns (as rifles or SMGs) don't kill people. Or at least they're not a significant threat.

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
We know they represent the UN, duh!!!

- Tak
No way! The UN is a method of dialogue as much as anything. If Ooarai really was the UN, then they'd constantly be talking about protocol and voting on measures.

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Originally Posted by Marina2 View Post
Let hope Saunders won't bring this up when they lose
Kei doesn't seem to be a bad sport in the slightest. She's pretty darned cool.
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:48   Link #1042
RedShocktrooper
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If anything, Kei seems like she'd get angry that her own team cheated (the blimp). Incidents like the one depicted might be merit to sticking a machine gun on the commander's turret ring of some tanks, though.

(In b4 Kei offers to buy the Oorai team lunch or something, or challenges them to a rematch with nothing at stake besides perhaps honor and mostly the fun of it.)

EDIT: Also, has anyone figured out why Momo only wears half a pair of glasses (a glass?) yet? Did she get overzealous for something at some prior point in time and never bother to get her glasses fixed or replaced?
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Old 2012-11-07, 12:59   Link #1043
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper View Post
EDIT: Also, has anyone figured out why Momo only wears half a pair of glasses (a glass?) yet? Did she get overzealous for something at some prior point in time and never bother to get her glasses fixed or replaced?
Shes a wannabe Prussian, but she couldn't find a monocle, so... yeah

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2012-11-07 at 13:35.
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Old 2012-11-07, 13:37   Link #1044
Zaku_II
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
The Tiger is a Heavy Tank, one of the most powerful tanks of WW2 with good armor, mobility, and a powerful gun capable of knocking out the majority of tanks that the Allies fielded at the time. It's the definitive final boss of the show

The Panzerkampfwagen aka Pzkpfw III aka Panzer III was the Wermacht's main medium tank during the early years of WWII alongside its older supplement/successor the Panzer IV. These shouldn't be much of a problem for the Oarai team.
To apreciate the capabilities of Panzer III and IV, here is a chart comparing the penetration distances of several versions of Panzer III and IV against the great T-34/76

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Old 2012-11-07, 13:46   Link #1045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As I pointed out earlier, Panzer General already exists. For anyone unfamiliar with the game, it's a operational-level game where the main campaign covers a bunch of German units on campaigns in Poland, France, Sealion, Moscow and even attacking Washington D.C. There is no Allied campaign, so you can only play the bad guys.
I mentioned earlier that the display on the carriage really reminded me of that game. As for an Allied campaign, there's Allied General. I used to have both games for the Mac, but lost them in the big move 7 years ago...
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Old 2012-11-07, 13:54   Link #1046
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To be fair, Company of Heroes also featured two German campaigns

Well, if you got the expansion pack.

- Tak
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Old 2012-11-07, 15:25   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Spoilers
Spoiler for Speculations
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Maho didn't look especially harsh. Just distant and maybe confused, like she didn't know what to make of her little sister. Which I could relate to, in her shoes. If it really happened like you think, I could understand giving up on sensha-do altogether and running away from it. But what did she find instead? Miho preferring to be the big fish in a tiny pond instead of staying home where she belongs and facing the music.
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Old 2012-11-07, 15:38   Link #1048
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Ok - ep 5 was absolutely wonderful!

Such a great series so far!

As for monocles, I prefer pince-nez personally.
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Old 2012-11-07, 16:49   Link #1049
Sumeragi
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Darjeeling Special

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Onee-sama!
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Old 2012-11-07, 17:02   Link #1050
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-11-07 at 20:21. Reason: Use of the APPROPRIATE tag is encouraged...
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Old 2012-11-07, 19:18   Link #1051
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Umm... I found this while searching the internet. Can anyone verify how accurate this chart is?

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Because seriously, if the above chart is accurate. How exactly is Ourai suppose to win this?!

According to the chart, all the tanks have about the same max speed. So the guerrilla tactics that Miho uses against St. Gloriana is out. Their armor is also just the same or below average with the one Saunders use. But, wth? is that penetration power of the firefly?! It outstrips even the StuG III by a wide margin!!!

Really seeing this chart, I can fully appreciate how outgunned our protagonist is. They're not only fighting with inexperienced crews and 2 vs 1; even if they managed to take out all the tanks of the enemy which is a tall order in itself that single firefly in the right position can kill all of their tanks easily and from quite a distance too. And I'm willing to bet its probably the enemy flag as well.
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Old 2012-11-07, 19:28   Link #1052
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Because seriously, if the above chart is accurate. How exactly is Ourai suppose to win this?!
If this was an open battle, then Oorai is indeed screwed beyond recognition. However, the objective here is not annihilation, and Miho knows too well she cannot go pound for pound against Saunders. I imagine a lot of strategic retreat, hide n' seek, ambush and other more deceptive tactics will be employed in order for Oorai to achieve victory in the upcoming (real) episode. So far, the Saunders team does not know Miho is using their own resources against them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
According to the chart, all the tanks have about the same max speed. So the guerrilla tactics that Miho uses against St. Gloriana is out. Their armor is also just the same or below average with the one Saunders use. But, wth? is that penetration power of the firefly?! It outstrips even the StuG III by a wide margin!!!
That is because, the Firefly was designed for the sole purpose of dealing with tanks like the Panther & the Tiger.

- Tak
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Old 2012-11-07, 19:50   Link #1053
Random Wanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddo-kun View Post
Surprised that Saunders team haven't filed an official complaint about that.
Maybe there's nothing in the rule book that says it's illegal to do such a thing.
Yukari said in the episode that the rules allow for teams to perform recon before a match. While impersonating a student and sneaking in is not polite (and probably violates some school rules) it would be considered a viable form of reconnaissance according to Senshadou rules.

Quote:
According to the chart, all the tanks have about the same max speed. So the guerrilla tactics that Miho uses against St. Gloriana is out. Their armor is also just the same or below average with the one Saunders use. But, wth? is that penetration power of the firefly?! It outstrips even the StuG III by a wide margin!!!
According to wikipedia, the Firefly is armed with the most effective anti-tank gun that the Allies used during World War II. So, the Firefly makes no pretense at being used against infantry: this thing was built specifically to destroy heavily armored tanks, and it was apparently quite good at it.
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Old 2012-11-07, 19:53   Link #1054
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaku_II View Post
To apreciate the capabilities of Panzer III and IV, here is a chart comparing the penetration distances of several versions of Panzer III and IV against the great T-34/76
It's too bad the chart is based on the T-34 since all of Ooarai's tanks have weaker armor. The M3's 75mm gun will have around the same penetration as the T-34 though, and the Pz. IVG's 75mm gun is the same one as the one in the StuG III.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I mentioned earlier that the display on the carriage really reminded me of that game. As for an Allied campaign, there's Allied General. I used to have both games for the Mac, but lost them in the big move 7 years ago...
Sure, but Panzer General did come out first. That map reminds me more of a Squad Leader map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
To be fair, Company of Heroes also featured two German campaigns

Well, if you got the expansion pack.

- Tak
It's not too uncommon for tactics/strategy games to feature both sides of a conflict - it's a carryover from the genre's wargaming roots. But Panzer General is pretty unique in only having a German campaign. There may be other games that also do this, but they're far more obscure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
According to the chart, all the tanks have about the same max speed. So the guerrilla tactics that Miho uses against St. Gloriana is out. Their armor is also just the same or below average with the one Saunders use. But, wth? is that penetration power of the firefly?! It outstrips even the StuG III by a wide margin!!!
The chart's correct, but it's a bit misleading. The listed range for the penetration is at 500m, and you'd normally expect tanks to engage at around double that range. This means that the big guns like the Firefly will have no problems penetrating, but Ooarai's guns are nowhere nearly as effective. This is why Saunders talked so much about the StuG III - it's the only real threat Ooarai has at range.

Ooarai's AFVs aren't all that good, especially when they're matched up with late-war tanks. That's why we've been speculating about upgrades. Ooarai was completely outmatched from the get go, so their only chance is in using good tactics. In real life, that's what tankers had to do whenever they came up against enemies they weren't equipped to deal with. They've been lucky that Saunders hasn't been trying to push their advantages too much.

Also, the 76mm is the Saunders Flag. You can see the little flag when all the tanks are lined up: the 76mm is the closest to the screen and it looks a bit different from the others. The one at the very end is the Firefly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
According to wikipedia, the Firefly is armed with the most effective anti-tank gun that the Allies used during World War II. So, the Firefly makes no pretense at being used against infantry: this thing was built specifically to destroy heavily armored tanks, and it was apparently quite good at it.
This is why the Firefly is so sexy. I'm still flabbergasted that the Americans actually turned it down.
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Old 2012-11-07, 20:17   Link #1055
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[Girls und Panzer] StuG III Ausf.F
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And on another topic. Mako seems a little sad when looking at the family picture in Yukari's room.
I think it's possible that her only remaining family might be her grandma.
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Old 2012-11-07, 20:57   Link #1056
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
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Because seriously, if the above chart is accurate. How exactly is Ourai suppose to win this?!
A different point about that chart is that it helps show just how poor a tank the Type 89 really is. The weakest by far in absolutely every area. It so drastically underperforms compared to everything else it almost makes one think it was put on this chart by mistake.
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Old 2012-11-07, 21:45   Link #1057
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Full version of the opening theme is so nice.
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Old 2012-11-07, 21:49   Link #1058
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It amuses me just how much raging is going on about the Type 89. Sure, it's not a brilliant tank, but the team is playing with the hand that it has been dealt.
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Old 2012-11-07, 21:53   Link #1059
night_sentinel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
If this was an open battle, then Ooarai is indeed screwed beyond recognition. However, the objective here is not annihilation, and Miho knows too well she cannot go pound for pound against Saunders. I imagine a lot of strategic retreat, hide n' seek, ambush and other more deceptive tactics will be employed in order for Ooarai to achieve victory in the upcoming (real) episode. So far, the Saunders team does not know Miho is using their own resources against them.

That is because, the Firefly was designed for the sole purpose of dealing with tanks like the Panther & the Tiger.

- Tak
The more I hear about the firefly, the more I see how awesome it is. It is a good thing that the Saunders school didn't field 10 of them or this battle is even more doomed. And I guess your right, our heroes aren't totally without advantage, Ooarai team can now feed false information to their opponents. Its still an incredibly lopsided battle favoring the Saunders though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The chart's correct, but it's a bit misleading. The listed range for the penetration is at 500m, and you'd normally expect tanks to engage at around double that range. This means that the big guns like the Firefly will have no problems penetrating, but Ooarai's guns are nowhere nearly as effective. This is why Saunders talked so much about the StuG III - it's the only real threat Ooarai has at range.
So the chart is correct. And the only thing misleading about it is at larger distance wherein we expect the engagements to actually happen - Ooarai tank is more screwed. And if penetration power translates over large distances basic physics says, that firefly will probably be able to snipe the StuG III before the Stug III can even go to a firing range that can damage the firefly. Well apparently our heroes are even more disadvantage than the chart says. Lol... Now, I'm really curious how they can win.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Also, the 76mm is the Saunders Flag. You can see the little flag when all the tanks are lined up: the 76mm is the closest to the screen and it looks a bit different from the others. The one at the very end is the Firefly.
This is good to know. At least the Ooarai team doesn't have to take out the firefly. Now they only have find a way to find and neutralize the 76mm flag tank while having being outnumbered 2:1 and having inferior tanks. At least its a bit more plausible now....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
A different point about that chart is that it helps show just how poor a tank the Type 89 really is. The weakest by far in absolutely every area. It so drastically underperforms compared to everything else it almost makes one think it was put on this chart by mistake.
You know, I though you guys were being hyperbolic when you say that the type 89 is only good for scrap metal. Apparently its dead serious. At least Team Ooarai found a good use for it - bait.

Well beggars can't be choosy, Team Ooarai haven't even reached the 10 tanks quota which makes me wonder if all the battles that they're going to have Ooarai is going to be vastly outnumbered or they'll getting more tank teams. There seems to be a tapir team from the OP though, so they'll probably get reinforcement soon which makes it 6 vs. 10... ^^

And I just noticed something, is it true that 38(t) happens to be the flag team of Team Ooarai? Or this is another misinformation tactic that Miho is doing? The Saunders certainly think so but, I wonder what the logic is in that because according to the chart its their second worst tank. I would think that the Team Ankou would be better choice for the flag tank considering its their commanders tank and I have a feeling Ooarai would go to pieces if panzer IV was ever shot down in battle.

Last edited by night_sentinel; 2012-11-08 at 01:42.
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Old 2012-11-07, 22:05   Link #1060
Random Wanderer
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Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
And I just noticed something, is it true that 38(t) happens to be the flag team of Team Ourai? Or this is another misinformation tactic that Miho is doing? The Saunders certainly think so but, I wonder what the logic is in that because according to the chart its their second worst tank. I would think that the Team Ankou would be better choice for the flag tank considering its their commanders tank and I have a feeling Ourai would go to pieces if panzer IV was ever shot down in battle.
The problem with using Miho's tank as the flag is the fact that the Panzer IV is really their second-best tank. They truly cannot afford to keep it sidelined holding the flag: they simply do not have the firepower to spare. Yet the flag-carrier is too important to risk sending out into fights. Also, Miho is unquestionably their best tactician: she needs to be out there where she can see what's going on, and give quick orders. So the Panzer IV has to be out in the fight, yet the flag-carrier cannot be risked in the fight. So someone else has to carry the flag.

Quote:
It amuses me just how much raging is going on about the Type 89. Sure, it's not a brilliant tank, but the team is playing with the hand that it has been dealt.
The problem is that the hand the poor volleyball team has been dealt leaves them with the following problems:
A: They are unable to harm their enemies. It is pretty much guaranteed that no team is going to field a tank whose armor is weak enough that the Type 89 can shoot through it. As offense, they are absolutely worthless.
B: They cannot protect themselves from their enemies. Their armor is nearly paper-thin. All it is proof against is small-arms fire. Pretty much any tank that is even marginally equipped for anti-tank operations can take them out in one hit.
C: They cannot run from their enemies. The Type 89 is slow. It can't even fall back on fancy maneuvers to evade enemies, because it just can't move fast enough.

People are harsh on the Type 89 because it is simply not suited for anything. Anything it can do, practically anyone else could do better. The only thing even vaguely positive that can be said about it on the team is that the team's capabilities won't be in any way harmed when it gets taken out.
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